3 ms·

Exactly. The culture of the judicial system works in a wholly different way in developing nations than in the West. They don't practice laws like we do. When y

Exactly. The culture of the judicial system works in a wholly different way in developing nations than in the West. They don't practice laws like we do. When you cause trouble in Thailand, they'll find any law you might have broken, just to get you, but when you don't cause trouble, most of the times you're fine, even if you might be breaking the law in official terms. I heard it's the same in China. Sure, it's a risk, but please tell me why all these co-working spaces everywhere are filled with foreigners without work permits and growing rapidly. Remote working is a new reality, and it would be highly counter-productive for these countries to start striking down on people working there. Every single foreigner I met in Thailand was working on projects either focused on their own country or internationally, thus not threatening local jobs. In reality, many of the Thai learnt from the foreigners that'd teach them about their tech stacks. That's exactly how they're building their own startup scene in Bangkok now. Learning from foreigners. I'd argue it may increase a developing nation's level of innovation to have remote workers around and governments should embrace this new reality asap.

jeff_facebook 13y ago
I spent 2 years living in Thailand on back-to-back tourist visas (and eventually ran out of passport pages) and a little over 2 more with a work permit. You are making the visa situation out to be MUCH simpler than it really is. You'll very quickly learn this, should you want to stay longer term. Every category of visa requires between 1-6 border runs per year, even with a work permit. If you get a permit and it expires or you lose the sponsored placement (which is tied to the permit) you have 15 days to leave the country. I've thought about this long and hard. There is no way to stay "under the radar", without major hassles. This is the purpose of the mandatory visa runs. You'll either run out of passport pages from the 6 tourist visa runs per year (12 stamps -- 6 in, 6 out, 2 pages each) or you will have to get a real visa, complete with a sponsored work placement and proof of income. End of story. Get caught at a border or an airport without a valid visa and you'll get fined 500 THB per overdue day, deported, and if the overdue period runs into months or years, blacklisted from future visas.
seanmcdirmid 13y ago
> I heard it's the same in China. Not in this case: they specifically target foreigners working without permits here, though mostly English teachers. China isn't really a cheap place for bootstrapping a startup, so the random foreigner coding in starbucks isn't going to attract any attention. Kai Fu's Innovation Works, a YC-style incubator, can help get foreigners working visas for incubated projects, I think.
- auvrw 13y ago
  or you can take university classes, a win for both the visa and language situations. the random foreigner who replies to a couple of job listings, has industry experience, and can crank out more than php or javascript spaghetti (because there are plenty of good developers here who will work for much less than sv wages) can definitely find startup-like situations. or maybe i just lucked out, dunno.
  - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
    I did the Chinese school thing 11 years ago. The low end tech scene is quite vibrant but wages for competent dev's keeps going up. China really just isn't that poor anymore; though you still have plenty of kids who are poorly trained but willingly to work hard on the cheap. Most foreigners outside of the few American tech companies are entrepreneurs and/or managers. I'm quite unusual as a researcher.
    - auvrw 13y ago
      yeah, i was doing the high-school thing at that time. and plenty of kids who -- with or without formal training -- are solid hackers. there are def more foreign businessmen than 老外 devs, and not without some cause: i'd definitely get more compensation from a startup in the bay or bank in ny than i do at my current job.
      - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
        I work at Microsoft, we have plenty of laowai devs and PMs, though quite a small percentage compared to local and even haigui (returnee) talent. As I rise in level, my pay is becoming more similar to Redmond, combine with the fact that research jobs are rare in general, its a fairly good job for me. But the pollution in Beijing...is the biggest problem for me right now.
dwfer55454 13y ago
No, not exactly. As someone who has had enough back-to-back tourist visas to fill 2 passports, I can say that your outlook on visas is naive in the extreme. Be prepared to move along or go to quite some effort/expense to stay. For an example of one of the subtleties I'm talking about: you need to show 400,000-800,000THB in a Thai bank account for a non-O (yearly renewal) visa. There used to be "visa agents" who would let you "borrow" this sum just long enough to flash to immigration officials. Having learned of this, the government mandated that the cash must remain deposited for 3 months. It's purpose is obvious and I can tell you that it's strongly enforced. Another not so subtle point is that, if you get back-to-back tourist visa, you'll be visiting the border at least 6 times per year and consuming 24 passport pages per year. Passport reissue pretty much requires you to fly home. Education visas require proof of enrolment in a real institution, which is also quite strongly enforced. There's a 4 year limit on renewals and you must renew out-of-country every year. Getting the picture yet....? Short term tourist visas are deceptively easy. Everything else isn't.

jeff_facebook 13y ago

I spent 2 years living in Thailand on back-to-back tourist visas (and eventually ran out of passport pages) and a little over 2 more with a work permit. You are making the visa situation out to be MUCH simpler than it really is. You'll very quickly learn this, should you want to stay longer term. Every category of visa requires between 1-6 border runs per year, even with a work permit. If you get a permit and it expires or you lose the sponsored placement (which is tied to the permit) you have 15 days to leave the country. I've thought about this long and hard. There is no way to stay "under the radar", without major hassles. This is the purpose of the mandatory visa runs. You'll either run out of passport pages from the 6 tourist visa runs per year (12 stamps -- 6 in, 6 out, 2 pages each) or you will have to get a real visa, complete with a sponsored work placement and proof of income. End of story. Get caught at a border or an airport without a valid visa and you'll get fined 500 THB per overdue day, deported, and if the overdue period runs into months or years, blacklisted from future visas.

seanmcdirmid 13y ago

> I heard it's the same in China. Not in this case: they specifically target foreigners working without permits here, though mostly English teachers. China isn't really a cheap place for bootstrapping a startup, so the random foreigner coding in starbucks isn't going to attract any attention. Kai Fu's Innovation Works, a YC-style incubator, can help get foreigners working visas for incubated projects, I think.

auvrw 13y ago
or you can take university classes, a win for both the visa and language situations. the random foreigner who replies to a couple of job listings, has industry experience, and can crank out more than php or javascript spaghetti (because there are plenty of good developers here who will work for much less than sv wages) can definitely find startup-like situations. or maybe i just lucked out, dunno.
- seanmcdirmid 13y ago
  I did the Chinese school thing 11 years ago. The low end tech scene is quite vibrant but wages for competent dev's keeps going up. China really just isn't that poor anymore; though you still have plenty of kids who are poorly trained but willingly to work hard on the cheap. Most foreigners outside of the few American tech companies are entrepreneurs and/or managers. I'm quite unusual as a researcher.
  - auvrw 13y ago
    yeah, i was doing the high-school thing at that time. and plenty of kids who -- with or without formal training -- are solid hackers. there are def more foreign businessmen than 老外 devs, and not without some cause: i'd definitely get more compensation from a startup in the bay or bank in ny than i do at my current job.
    - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
      I work at Microsoft, we have plenty of laowai devs and PMs, though quite a small percentage compared to local and even haigui (returnee) talent. As I rise in level, my pay is becoming more similar to Redmond, combine with the fact that research jobs are rare in general, its a fairly good job for me. But the pollution in Beijing...is the biggest problem for me right now.

dwfer55454 13y ago

No, not exactly. As someone who has had enough back-to-back tourist visas to fill 2 passports, I can say that your outlook on visas is naive in the extreme. Be prepared to move along or go to quite some effort/expense to stay. For an example of one of the subtleties I'm talking about: you need to show 400,000-800,000THB in a Thai bank account for a non-O (yearly renewal) visa. There used to be "visa agents" who would let you "borrow" this sum just long enough to flash to immigration officials. Having learned of this, the government mandated that the cash must remain deposited for 3 months. It's purpose is obvious and I can tell you that it's strongly enforced. Another not so subtle point is that, if you get back-to-back tourist visa, you'll be visiting the border at least 6 times per year and consuming 24 passport pages per year. Passport reissue pretty much requires you to fly home. Education visas require proof of enrolment in a real institution, which is also quite strongly enforced. There's a 4 year limit on renewals and you must renew out-of-country every year. Getting the picture yet....? Short term tourist visas are deceptively easy. Everything else isn't.