31 ms·

Because it needs to be said

• milesf 13y ago
  The assault was evil enough, but the vilification of Justine in the comments by some makes my blood boil. The best antidote to fight darkness is to bring it out into the light. Thank you, Justine, for your ongoing courage to speak out. I cannot say I understand what you're going through, but I'm sure there are (too many) others out there who do. Surround yourself with friends and supporters who will stand with you. You are not alone.
  • AlisdairO 13y ago
    There's absolutely no excuse for such behaviour - the man should be prosecuted. I wish Justine a lot of luck getting her life back on track. It's worth mentioning (since the volume of comments doesn't make it obvious) that it appears to be a single commenter doing the vilifying.
    • steveklabnik 13y ago
      > it appears to be a single commenter doing the vilifying. It may appear to be that way, but many people have stated various things. If you haven't been following this on Twitter for the last few weeks, it can look different. It is certainly not just one person.
      • AlisdairO 13y ago
        Ah, fair enough - I only looked at the web page. That's incredibly disappointing :-(
  • cegev 13y ago
    The comments are... odd. I can understand leaving comments open as an illustration of the backlash that results from trying to talk about these matters, but at some point, banning particular people makes sense: the majority of the comments there are vile primarily because the majority of comments have been made by one apparently obsessed person making utterly ridiculous comments in a deranged tone. I fear that the shock of those comments hides what I consider the more important, problematic vilification going on in the comments, which is the argument made by a few sane people that talking about this, rather than keeping it a private matter, is not appropriate, and that Justine should have stayed silent and only gone to the police. This is perhaps more harmful, as it comes from people who aren't obviously deranged or trolling.
    • steveklabnik 13y ago
      Consider that the person who would be doing the banning is the victim, which means that she would have to read all of those shitty comments, continually, in order to determine who to ban.
      • stock_toaster 13y ago
        I cringed when I saw that comments were enabled _at all_ on that post.
        • steveklabnik 13y ago
          Justine explicitly said that she's leaving them on in order to show everyone what happens when someone reports a sexual assault.
          • stock_toaster 13y ago
            Ah. I didn't see that mentioned in the post itself anywhere. Thanks for the info.
            • steveklabnik 13y ago
              No problem, it was on Twitter: https://twitter.com/SaltineJustine/status/388908504209047552 https://twitter.com/SaltineJustine/status/388908504209047552
    • pm 13y ago
      "Erin" sounds like "she" has an axe to grind with Justine.
      • gingerlime 13y ago
        Erin == Joe O'Brien ? (rien/erin...?)
• sneak 13y ago
  Don't read the comments. Repeat: don't read the comments. Fuckin' people. Ugh.
  • milesf 13y ago
    Justine is leaving the comments on: "I am leaving comments on exactly because of that. Although they hurt me, they are a prime example why victims don't speak up." https://twitter.com/SaltineJustine/status/388908504209047552 https://twitter.com/SaltineJustine/status/388908504209047552 I cannot believe the courage of this woman.
• deleted 13y ago
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• xdissent 13y ago
  Peer pressure body shots? I don't know, guys.
  • steveklabnik 13y ago
    Welcome to my community, apparently. :'(
    • milesf 13y ago
      No, this is not the community I have loved and been a part of for 8 years. This kind of behaviour - assault, companies covering up the matter, bullying - is NOT acceptable! I will stand up, all 445 pounds of me, to anyone who thinks this matter should just go away. We need to talk about this, and minds need to be changed so that our community will improve.
      • steveklabnik 13y ago
        I didn't think it was either, but the reaction of many makes me truly doubt it. :( Thank you.
      • ddorian43 13y ago
        You should consider loosing weight.
        • klepra 13y ago
          You don't know his height/bodyfat.
          • jlgreco 13y ago
            While true, keep in mind that Hulk Hogan was billed at 302lbs. There are potentially healthy body configurations at that weight, but not many.
            • klepra 13y ago
• ryan-allen 13y ago
  Sexual assault is a crime, and she should report this to the police and press charges. A blog post isn't going to get justice, but the courts might. Internet mob justice isn't justice.
  • steveklabnik 13y ago
    Apparently you are not familiar with this topic, or you would know that going to the police almost never does anything in this situation. Posting a factual account of events is not an "internet mob."
    • ryan-allen 13y ago
      Wow, what was I thinking. You definitely should never, ever, report crimes to the police. Especially if there were two witness bar staff!
      • steveklabnik 13y ago
        It is possible that, in the moment, that would have made a difference. Remember this assault occurred almost a year ago. Furthermore, I didn't say 'crimes,' I said sexual assault. Again, I am not being abstract: if you talk to anyone who works with sexual assault victims, you know how futile that course of action is. Let's not forget that lawyers cost money, for example.
        • ryan-allen 13y ago
          Statue of limitations on sexual assault is longer than 9 months. Two witnesses that can be tracked down. You are advising against not even trying to press charges? Character assassination without trial is better? The courts exist for a reason and there were two witnesses. Do you have any citations for the futility of reporting a crime with two witnesses?
          • steveklabnik 13y ago
• janl 13y ago
  My heart goes out to Justine and her courage to talk publicly about this. We are all in her debt.
• erikpukinskis 13y ago
  One thing we can all do: Start asking before you touch in situations where you know you don't have to. I know it's awkward. But the reason people like Joe think they can put their hands down someone's pants is because we don't have a cultural practice of "ask first". They see you put your arms around that friend of yours who doesn't mind at all, and they think "Ah, cool... so you can just sense if she's cool with it and then go for it". Of course you're not a scumbag, so you'd never put your hands down someone's pants without asking, but that's the thing... scumbags can't tell the difference. They don't see the difference between you rubbing your friend's back because she's having a bad day--your friend who is happy to have a little contact from you--they don't see the difference between that and them taking a body shot off of their employee without asking. In both cases they just see someone making their best guess at what someone else wants, without asking, and going for it. That's the cultural standard, that's your standard, so that's what they hold themselves to. Basically, right now we try to draw the line between ask/don't ask as close to the ok/not ok line as we possibly can. But in a world where people make mistakes that means there are lots of "accidents". The only way to prevent those accidents is to move the ask/don't ask line further into "ok" territory. Sexual assault might seem like an issue between individuals, but as long as we see it that way it will continue happening. If we're serious about changing it, it's something we have to collectively take responsibility for. If hundreds of times a week these people see the rest of us asking our wives, asking our friends, asking everyone "do you want a backrub?" and "can I kiss you?" and "is this ok?" then their expectations change. They'll start to feel weird not asking. And maybe some of these assaults can turn into near-assaults.
  • sneak 13y ago
    I think a much more workable solution would be to collectively attempt to abandon the shitty American brand of alcohol culture that seems to be a fairly common contributing factor in a lot of these stories about rape and assault. Alcohol makes one stupid, not cool. I have no idea why it is held in such high esteem in the US tech industry.
    • austinz 13y ago
      My guess is that it's closely related to the collegiate alcohol culture, which is just as shitty and pretty much ubiquitous, and which many younger devs were a part of before graduating into industry.
• jmduke 13y ago
  I haven't been to a programming conference before, and I always assumed it was kinda prudish of the people who said that the atmosphere at such events should be toned down. They reminded me of the people on my freshman hall who would give me dirty glances when I stumbled in late and tipsy: who are you to tell me what's wrong? What's the harm? I like whiskey. It's tasty, and makes me more sociable. Now I get it. I'm not saying that's the main takeaway from this article, but a norm dictating that industry conferences should have an average BAC higher than half of my college parties is never going to help the situation.
  • epochwolf 13y ago
    I've been to a couple of insurance conferences and they have this problem too. One of my coworkers witnessed an assault take place in a bar everyone was at.
• gknoy 13y ago
  Justine, you are a courageous woman. Thank you for sharing this.
• ChrisNorstrom 13y ago
  This is a body shot for those who don't know. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBPT6AUnUnI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBPT6AUnUnI | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKP99wrx6Sc http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKP99wrx6Sc | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBbz6hhoKbg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBbz6hhoKbg Open-Minded Alternative-Understanding Scenario time: You're a male with your male gay friends at a gay bar. They're taller than you as they are gays of the muscle bear variety. You're the only one who's straight but you want to show them you're one of the gang too. You agree to a body shot or a pole dance to show them "hey look I'm not homophobic, I can roll with you guys I can go along with the joke, I'm comfortable around you". One of the muscle bears (beefy, dominant, taller and stronger than you) starts kissing you, sticks his hands down your pants, grabs & squeezes your testicles and fingers your ass. How would you react? Did you make a bad decision? Were you asking for anything? Was it your fault or the muscle bears fault? Who went too far? What were your and others' expectations of the situation? This scenario is specifically designed to help people understand that while Justine did agree to a body-shot, nothing warranted taking things further. The "look but don't touch" rule applies at all times. Then again body shots are impossible to do without someone sucking juice out of your belly button with their mouth. I'm trying to see this from both parties' points of view. On Joe's end, I think a lot of men are trained by society, dating advice, hormones, movies, films, and even other girlfriends, that a man's purpose is to take what he wants, make the first move, initiate dominance and not ask for permission. From Justine's point of view.... I understand what you were going for. Trying to earn their admiration... I feel bad for you. A body shot, pole dance, strip tease, doesn't warrant kissing, groping, or fingering, period. But honestly, body shots with co-workers is a bit.........unprofessional. Don't ever put yourself in a submissive position emotionally or physically around drunk men to try to prove yourself to them. Men do not respect submission. How is letting them do body shots off you make you one of them? Do they do body shots off each other?
  • deleted 13y ago
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  • x0x0 13y ago
    You can simultaneously think that what Joe is claimed to have done is totally and utterly wrong and that doing body shots and allowing back rubbing and head kissing with coworkers, let alone supervisors, is incredibly stupid.
• ck2 13y ago
  This isn't her fault at all but I have to say this: Hang around people doing drugs (large amounts of alcohol) and bad things are guaranteed to happen sooner or later.
  • konstruktor 13y ago
    Cool advice. Now please tell me about an industry where "drinking with the guys" is not a central part of the networking/socializing needed to have a career.
    • ck2 13y ago
      In recent months this year I’ve been arrested, charged with a DUI ... become a borderline alcoholic She has been drinking and driving. This is not just peer pressure, this is unforgivable.
      • steveklabnik 13y ago
        Yes, victims are often traumatized after an event like this, and it causes them to make poor decisions later. That doesn't invalidate the assault. Consent is consent.
        • ck2 13y ago
          I blame the boss for a whole bunch of things but where it gets to the point of getting drunk and then getting behind a wheel and killing me or my friends, that's where the victim turns into a criminal without forgiveness. Your level of unconditional forgiveness becomes an excuse that I cannot accept.
          • ddagradi 13y ago
            According to the post, she was punished by the law for that (DUI). What else are you asking for?
            • 13y ago
• ggreer 13y ago
  We, as a community, are simply incapable of discussing this subject responsibly.[1] Similar stories have been posted before. Some people are outraged at the incident. Others are outraged that the author publicized the incident. Others question the author's account. Others are outraged at the outrage of the second group and/or the skepticism of the third group. Et cetera. The ultimate result is this: Endless angry comments. Everyone feels rage. All parties mentioned by name (and some unlucky enough to have the same name) wake up to inboxes full of hate mail. Careers are harmed, sometimes permanently. If you had never read this story, how would the world be different? You would feel slightly happier, and you would have likely spent your time doing something more pleasant. In other words: not different at all outside your own mind. Unless, of course, you actually did something to help. Even a token gesture would be better than posting an angry comment. Send an email with some nice words in it. Heck, maybe even do something in the real world to help. And instead of jumping on the rage train and telling everyone how angry you are, tell everyone what you did to try to make things better. 1. To be fair, the same is true for almost all online communities. Edit: It's been an hour since I wrote this comment. So far, nobody has followed my suggestion and said how they've helped this situation. I guess I'll be the first. I sent a short email to Justine. Hopefully her day is a little better because of it.
  • milesf 13y ago
    Not true. There have been issues at conferences that have been talked about on places like HN, and now many conferences are adopting anti-harassment policies, like at the Cascadia Ruby Conference http://cascadiaruby.com/policies http://cascadiaruby.com/policies It's a mess, yes, but change does happen. There are many people who are very skilled at talking about tough issues like this one who simply need to be given an opportunity to address the community. I for one hope the Ruby community steps up and changes, for the better, because of this one.
    • obstacle1 13y ago
      Lest we mention PyCon...
      • 13y ago
• hawkharris 13y ago
  My ex-girlfriend wrote a blog post similar to this one, accusing me of sexual assault. I volunteered to take a police polygraph test, hired a lawyer and initiated a libel suit. Fortunately, I didn’t need to go further because she suddenly changed my name & her story. But the experience was still stressful and scary. Many commenters vilified me because they assumed her information was true. Prior to being falsely accused, I didn’t believe in false accusations. I couldn’t believe that anyone would tell a lie so insulting to victims. I still do believe that the vast majority of accusations are true, but I always reserve judgement because I know how it feels to be vilified in a blog post. I applaud the author for sharing her experiences. This post is eloquent and courageous. Having said that, a blog post is not the right place to seek justice. In fact, the information here may interfere with a trial. I encourage her to delete this post and initiate a criminal trial in order to hold the perpetrator accountable.
  • sneak 13y ago
    Unfortunately, private citizens cannot initiate criminal trials, and most police do not take reports of sexual assault very seriously, if indeed they do anything at all.
    • hawkharris 13y ago
      That's right. I didn't mean to imply that citizens can initiate it on their own, but the author should at least try to press charges. The definition of sexual assault / rape varies by state. In any case, I don't think vigilante justice by blog post is an appropriate solution.
      • steveklabnik 13y ago
        Can you explain to me how posting a factual account of a situation is 'vigilante justice'?
        • barrkel 13y ago
          The post accuses someone by name with some fairly emotive acts. Enough to have repurcussions on the other person's life. That seems like an attempt at amateur justice to me. In my country, the post would be grounds for libel if she can't prove it in court.
• deleted 13y ago
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• konstruktor 13y ago
  We have a culture of alcohol being involved in most team interactions outside of work. Those mostly take place in the evening, a time when, usually, private socializing, including mate seeking behaviour, happens. That alone would be quite a fertile ground for sexual harassment, if you add a few females to a group mostly consisting of men. Then add companies where people work long hours and have little life outside of work. And now consider conferences, where people are away from their regular social circle for extended periods of time. I would not want to be a young, attractive female working in this environment.
  • GeorgeOrr 13y ago
    I really don't think it's about alcohol or about men and women working in close quarters for long hours. This is about a small number of pigs that care more about their desire than any thought of consent or mutual interest. Real men, the vast majority, would never consider inflicting this sort of evil on another. Drunk or not. It's not about sex, it's about power and abuse.
    • eulerphi 13y ago
      The white knight.
  • beams_of_light 13y ago
    Agreed. Years ago, I might not have been able to sympathize with her very well, but I have daughters of my own now, and I cringe at the thoughts of things the future males in their lives will do. It's easy to see women as sex objects, but having daughters really opens your eyes to their humanity; that their hopes and dreams mean just at much as ours.
    • gmjosack 13y ago
      It seems strange to me that one would need to have daughters to realize women have hopes and dreams as meaningful as a man's...
• sgentle 13y ago
  I'm glad this is out there. It's a tragedy that it happened at all, but it would be an even bigger tragedy if nobody else knew the consequences. I think everyone experiences that moment sometimes where you think "is this okay? should I say something?" And after you waver for a second, your decision reinforces itself and you end up doing nothing at all. Maybe you can even convince yourself that it was all okay in the end. After all, the consequences are invisible. Well, not this time. I found two other perspectives on the story: http://theotherzach.com/writes/2013/10/9/events http://theotherzach.com/writes/2013/10/9/events http://blog.matt-darby.com/essays/i-am-the-other-developer http://blog.matt-darby.com/essays/i-am-the-other-developer I'm particularly heartened by Zach's account. The police can prosecute assaults, absolutely, but they can't stop them before they happen. The community can. By setting clearer expectations of behaviour, recognising potentially dangerous situations and taking steps to ameliorate the risk, and by being willing to step in before anything goes off the rails, the community can stop this from happening again. And, thanks to Justine, maybe they will.
  • GeorgeOrr 13y ago
    The vast majority of people are good, honourable though often less vocal on the internet. We outnumber the bastards out there. We just need to learn to step up and stop evil when we see it. That's the leson I take from Zach's account. If we can be just as quick in doing that as others are in posting judgemental comments on board then a lot of horrible experiences will be averted. How horrible the effect evil has on people is what I learned from Justine's account. The stakes couldn't be higher.
    • steveklabnik 13y ago
      "All that's needed for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
  • throwaway9848 13y ago
    Let's keep some perspective. A second ship in one week carrying desperate, impoverished African migrants sunk of the coast of Italy yesterday. Many drowned. That is a tragedy. This is just one of those bad things that happens in life that one has to move on from. While I agree in helping others, people need to help themselves. Everything you wrote about the community needs to be done by the individual, too. Also, one must not let their life go entirely off the rails in the face of an adverse event.
• deleted 13y ago
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• cefarix 13y ago
  As an aside, why is alcohol such a big part of things like tech meetups, etc? I've been to a few and there is always alcohol being served and people drinking it. As a Muslim, I've never touched alcohol and never will, and I don't understand the need to "alcoholize" everything. Why can't there be a culture of having just good clean fun, no alcohol, no drugs, no sexualizing? And what place does alcohol even have at tech events?
  • felipe 13y ago
    As a non-believer, I've never touched a sacred book and never will, and I don't understand the need to "indoctrinate" everything. Why can't there be a culture of having just good clean fun, no religion, no wars, no oppression in the name of a virtual god? (point being: blame the perpetrator, not the substance)
    • cefarix 13y ago
      Religion and alcohol are not the same. Are trying to say that religion is like a rapist? But even if I continue with your horribly broken and anti-religionist analogy, I could say: I don't bring religion into my work/meetings so why bring alcohol into it?
      • anu_gupta 13y ago
        Then why mention your religion here? How is it in any way relevant?
        • chris_wot 13y ago
          Because, as a Muslim, I assume he doesn't drink. He was asking a fairly legitimate question, which is why is alcohol so closely associated with the tech scene? My answer to him is that alcohol often helps folks loosen up. It's great, and fun, but only when you take it in reasonable moderation.
        • cefarix 13y ago
          Umm, because that's the reason for me abstaining from alcohol. I made that quite clear when I started my sentence with "As a Muslim".
• Dalkore 13y ago
  Please read "After the shot" again. If im not mistaken kissing forheads and rubbing is commen place with your male friends. You mention multiple coworkers. He hand grabs your butt and you dont immediatly pull away????? Why not take responsibility for your actions as well. Ive been to bars and seen drunken mistakes but to vilify the person like this and not take any resposibilty for your actions is pathetic and immature. Yes he crossed the line but maybe we should hear that from you too.
  • exodust 13y ago
    Exactly. She had opportunity to stop things before it progressed to "down the front of the pants." Do people not understand what's involved in putting a hand down a girl's front? It's actually not that easy to do... it can't be done "casually" in a public bar without both parties allowing it to happen. Not to mention "forcibly kissing me with his tongue"... How is that even possible unless the other person opens their mouth and lets your tongue in? If a girl doesn't want your tongue in her mouth at a public bar, guess what? Your tongue is not going in her mouth! That's how kissing works in case any readers here are rusty on the subject! :-) Go ahead, downvote. But please don't kid yourself that this girl isn't playing the "victim of alcohol-fueled tech industry sleaze" game.
    • erikpukinskis 13y ago
      I wonder if part of it isn't the "landmine mode" that minorities have to be in to succeed in the workplace. As a woman you have to be hypervigilant about how you are perceived amongst your coworkers. There are very small runways of acceptable behavior between pushover and bitch, between slut and ice queen, etc. There is the pressure to fit in and "go with the flow" but then there you know that when shit hits the fan (as it did here) your every move will be scrutinized and every opportunity to blame you for your misfortune will be taken. As a result, I think minorities in the work place have a constant running double, triple, quadruple-checking loop for their behavior. Everything they want to say need to be run by a bunch of checks to make sure it meets the "safe for a male-dominated workplace" test. As a result you're much slower to react to thing. As a majority member it's much easier to just blurt out your first thought, or to act out your first reaction... since you're the norm, it's reasonable to assume that your first instinct will be acceptable to the group. But as a minority, you learn to second-guess yourself. Therefore even as someone is forcibly kissing you, you are second guessing what your options really are.
• JakaJancar 13y ago
  A genuine question: How can some people be so reflective and seem to understand their problems really well, yet still be completely paralyzed and unable to do anything about them?
  • steveklabnik 13y ago
    The relevant psychological literature is on 'trauma.' I am not a psychologist, but traumatic effects certainly cause lots of problems. It's incredibly complex. Brains are hard.
• kenster07 13y ago
  The story is heart wrenching, but the fact is, it may not be true. Anyone can literally say anything they want about someone and the internet will believe it without a moment's hesitation. It is downright scary. If you were the accused and the story was contrived, you would not have much recourse.
  • steveklabnik 13y ago
    There are two men, one of whom stopped it, who corroborate her story: http://theotherzach.com/writes/2013/10/9/events http://theotherzach.com/writes/2013/10/9/events and http://blog.matt-darby.com/essays/i-am-the-other-developer http://blog.matt-darby.com/essays/i-am-the-other-developer
    • kenster07 13y ago
      I appreciate that, and if the story is true, I hope the perpetrator suffers the consequences. But we are not the jury here, as fun as it may be. We should not try to ruin someone's life in such a fickle forum.
      • steveklabnik 13y ago
        Absolutely nothing about this is 'fun'.
        • i_am_dead 13y ago
          You sure seem to have a horse in this race
          • steveklabnik 13y ago
            Yes, I would prefer that the women in my community are not sexually assaulted. I absolutely have a horse in this race. Furthermore, I have been friends with Joe for years, and don't know Justine.
          • chris_wot 13y ago
• sliverstorm 13y ago
  I am fairly certain that the events that Monday in January ruined me for the rest of my life Is this typical? I've read a fair amount of stories from rape victims, and yet here we are to understand this woman's life has come completely unhinged and ruined for good by something... I don't know, somewhat less dramatic than a rape. If I hadn't read the story of the event itself, I'd have honestly thought it was about a brutal, violent rape. I realize I probably sound like a jerk, but as I've never had personal involvement with this sort of thing I have no first-hand experience, and after reading this story I suddenly find myself shocked & confused as I think of the other stories I have read in the past. All I can do is ask for input. Please treat this as an honest question.
  • steveklabnik 13y ago
    Yes. The relevant concept, as much as I _hate_ to link to wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_trauma http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_trauma As well as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_trauma_syndrome http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_trauma_syndrome
    • sliverstorm 13y ago
      To be clear, I understand & am familiar with those concepts. I'm just... I don't want to put it in terms of comparison, but that's all I've got- shocked & confused that an event that I would expect to be less traumatic than rape, is seeming to impact the victim in ways much more dramatic than any recounting from a rape victim I can remember. Again, I hate to put it in terms of comparison. There's no competition here. I'm just trying to adjust my understanding to fit.
      • steveklabnik 13y ago
        From the outside, it may not seem to be as bad as rape. But the crime, psychologically, is fundamentally the same: it's about having autonomy over your body. The only difference is degree. > than any recounting from a rape victim I can remember. I don't know you, but consider that you probably don't know a representative sample of rape and/or sexual assault victims, and therefore, your experiences may not reflect overall reality. Furthermore, humans are incredibly different. To make an almost non-sequitur comparison, I don't particularly feel tattoos hurt a lot. I know some people who scream and cry after ten minutes. Everyone will react to some kind of trauma in a different fashion.
• deleted 13y ago
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• Confusion 13y ago
  I think there's a deeper cultural problem here: that the behavior of Joe had that much of an impact on Justine's life in the first place. There are women that would experience the same thing, but would not retreat into themselves in this extreme way. There are even women that would shrug it off. However, the response of Justine matches ancient societal expectations: if a woman has been violated, she loses all value. Why would anyone still believe that in our modern society? Because like the vilification of gay people ('gay' and 'faggot' are still a word used by virtually everyone to put things down as 'unmanly' or generally 'shameworthy') it has has entered the undertow of culture, where it is less apparent, but just as strong. When someone is raped, we say we understand that her life is shattered, that she will never recover. It's part of a general acceptance that certain events mean someone's life is 'over' (death of a child, significant other) and that they may never recover. This acceptance implies expectation. Stronger women are questioned, seemingly admiringly, but actually judgingly: 'How can you just continue living after this?' with a hidden 'you are supposed to have broken!'. It's easy to say that being raped should be like breaking a leg: an unfortunate event that can happen during a lifetime in human society with all its strange and from which you can recover after some pain and trouble. The difference is of course that one was inflicted on purpose by someone in your social group, while the other is usually self-inflicted or at least accidental. That this makes a difference is actually part of the same problem: that if you've been bested by another in your social group, you lose status and value. This also has ancient origins and as a result has deep roots in our minds. A chimpanzee with a broken leg doesn't lose status if humans take care of its leg. It only loses status if it loses a fight. What is the way out of this? Make a conscious effort not to believe these things anymore. Raise your children not to believe these things. Don't participate in them and scold everyone that does them. Teach them it doesn't matter if someone has asserted dominance over them and that their lives are no less valuable as a result of it. Justine, please seek professional help. Find a therapist that will work on changing the beliefs that have caused you to experience this event so strongly and caused it to have such an influence. There are lots of women on whom a similar experience had a weaker effect. This is not because you are weaker: it is because of what you were taught during your life, because of your beliefs. It is hard to change beliefs. There are many emotions connected to them, which makes you recoil from touching them. A professional therapists will enable this process, after which I hope you will look back and think "why on earth did I believe those things so strongly that a single event could have such a strong influence on my life?!"
• mkrecny 13y ago
  Here's Joe's "Funemployment" post: http://objo.com/2013/06/01/taking-some-time-off/ http://objo.com/2013/06/01/taking-some-time-off/
  • lawnchair_larry 13y ago
    While we're taking things out of context, I noticed that he also followed up with a post that he is checking himself into a 6 week mental health program to get some help. http://objo.com/2013/06/01/taking-some-time-off/ http://objo.com/2013/06/01/taking-some-time-off/ It's possible that just maybe, this is a decent man who made a bad decision, like all of us have done in different ways. Fortunately for us, our mistakes were not aired on the internet. There is a chance that he is not a cruel, evil being that the internet should burn like a salem witch, but that he's human like you and I. If you think you're better than him, read this again in ten years. Eventually, real life will happen, and you'll do something regrettable.
  • Dalkore 13y ago
    Someone has already posted a comment on there about this situation. Why not contact Joe directly and ask him for his account before applying guilt by hearsay.
• tunesmith 13y ago
  Completely beside the larger point of assault, I am just frankly amazed at the seemingly unanimous defense (in the three blog writeups) of the level of drinking that happens in these atmospheres. It really does read as if people are saying, look, people should be able to get shitfaced drunk every night at a professional conference without having to worry. And... well gosh maybe that's true in theory, but... isn't that an earthshakingly huge "but"? my god. So. much. alcohol. I am not blaming the events on the alcohol, because I get that the root cause of events like these are far deeper. But it sure does seem like the alcohol serves as something of a counterfactual; if the alcohol hadn't been flowing as freely, none of this might have happened. What on earth is the deal with the culture of these conferences? I'm a programmer, and I have friends, and I go out, and I'm not a prude, but I swear, I haven't gotten buzzed for six months and I rarely have more than one drink in an outing. With this kind of picture painted, I feel like I'd be a complete alien at a Ruby conference, and it feels like a disincentive to get more involved with that community.
  • sneak 13y ago
    Brogrammers are legion. It gets marginally better outside of the ruby/js/node scenes.
  • 7Figures2Commas 13y ago
    > What on earth is the deal with the culture of these conferences? It's not just the conferences. I have visited startups that have beer on tap or in the fridge, and some companies even inject alcohol into the interview process[1]. Mixing work and alcohol is a bad idea. Period. There's just too much that can go wrong. Sadly, in some industries, and at some companies, and in much of society at large, alcohol consumption is so strongly encouraged and expected that many individuals who would like to opt out feel uneasy about whether they can do so without consequence. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6518763 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6518763
• adamnemecek 13y ago
  Stopped reading at 'trigger warnings'.
  • sneak 13y ago
    I dislike the idea that anyone is obligated to provide trigger warnings, too, but the post has important data in it. Also, don't be so snarky for the sake of being snarky. Productive snark is okay.
    • adamnemecek 13y ago
      My snarkiness is in fact constructive. It points out that whatever saying "trigger warnings" is supposed to achieve, it fails at doing that and turns away potential readers.
      • steveklabnik 13y ago
        Can you explain how it fails at achieving its goals? What do you think the goal of a trigger warning is?
        • adamnemecek 13y ago
          It's supposed to warn readers who have had similar experience that the content of the article could cause flashbacks of their own experiences. And I somehow can't shake off the feeling that all it does is promote the victim mentality in the the author and the audience. Also good job white knighting your pants off in this thread.
          • sneak 13y ago
            That's not all it does. It's okay to be wrong. We've all been there.
            • adamnemecek 13y ago
              You are right. It's not all it does, it's only the majority of all it does.
• Kiro 13y ago
  Does his latest tweet has anything to do with this? If so it looks like he will post his version soon, for whatever it's worth.
  • wilkie 13y ago
    Here is his post after the event explaining why he was fired (it doesn't): http://objo.com/2013/01/31/funemployment/ http://objo.com/2013/01/31/funemployment/
  • steveklabnik 13y ago
    > If so it looks like he will post his version soon Nope: > I will not be commenting more publicly. If you know me, I'm happy to talk in person. Thank you. https://twitter.com/objo/status/387615899470934016 https://twitter.com/objo/status/387615899470934016
    • Kiro 13y ago
      https://mobile.twitter.com/objo/status/385575128257822720?screen_name=objo https://mobile.twitter.com/objo/status/385575128257822720?sc...
      • steveklabnik 13y ago
        Yes, your tweet was right before the one I posted.
• pearjuice 13y ago
  So she voluntarily lied down on a bar with her and men around her intoxicated by alcohol, hormones amplified and expecting nothing out of the usual to happen? Get real, please. Of course it is horrible but don't make it look like it was unexpected.
  • steveklabnik 13y ago
    I don't know about you, but I do not want to live in a society where women cannot go to a bar without an expectation of being sexually assaulted. Sounds like a bug.
    • pearjuice 13y ago
      In the society I breathe daily, women generally do not get sexually assaulted when they go to a bar (I don't know the statistics). However, I quote: "At some point, it was suggested that I do a body shot. I’ve never done one in my life but at the insistence of many people, attendees and bartenders I decided to lay on the bar." this is an invitation to sexual behavior. "A body shot is a shot of alcohol (such as tequila) that is consumed from a person's body, usually from erogenous zones such as the navel or the breasts."[0] How possibly did she not fathom that this could result in her being approached with a sexual tone? She even voluntarily lifted her shirt ("Someone who was up for anything." [...] "and lifted my shirt as far as I was comfortable") Could it have been the alcohol which intoxicated her body and disabled her anxiety? Made her forget that she was with other men also under influence of the effects of alcohol and she was one of the few if not only woman offering her body to be licked? In which off all the possible outcomes did she expect that she would have get the drink removed from her body and be done with it? Have you guys even thought about this? It is really sad how everything evolved and what kind of person she became due to these actions but please look at the circumstances and how it was her who initiated everything. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_play#Alcohol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_play#Alcohol
      • steveklabnik 13y ago
        Consent to a body shot is consent to a body shot. Let's not even bring up the coercive aspect here. Consent to a body shot is not consent to sex afterward.
• BenderV 13y ago
  This is sad. I don't want to be the devil advocate but I don't think we can judge here...So I will imagine the defense of Joe ; I understand that Justine doesn't want to enter in details. But without all informations, it does seem to me that Joe could have just misunderstood Justine behavior. "- Joe began to start rubbing my back and kissing my forehead (let me say this is not uncommon behavior between me and men I consider close friends." => Joe certainly believed that it was unique between Her and Him. He doesn't have the same pov as Justine "- Joe then put his hands down the back of my pants, yes, I wear a thong and thus he began grabbing my ass." => Shouldn't she stop him there ? "- Joe then started kissing me, forcibly with his tongue. I was not reciprocating." => Joe is drunk. He certainly does not remark that. "- Joe began to put his hand down the front of my pants and finger me." => He certainly have gone to far there. But why does he wasn't stopped before and during that operation (not easy) ! "- I told Joe to stop and reminded him he had a wife and children. He said, “Don’t’ worry about it we have an agreement”" => That unfortunate, in one side (Justine), it seems to be the smartest thing to say to calm him down, in the other side (Joe), it seems like a girl who know it is wrong but wanted it if he is certain would said. As for what we have here, it doesn't seem to me that Joe is specially an asshole (but maybe I'm wrong.), but more that this could be the results of peers pressure and mis-communication. [Again, I don't want to judge here, just to give another pov] It's however clear that Joe should have think about how his work relation [the fact that he is her boss...] influence that relation. Maybe this is what the victims of assault don't tell the police. They fear that the case will be drop because of lack of details... "- Finally Matt Darby approached me and asked if I want to go out for a smoke (I smoke, he does’t smoke, and I knew that he was trying to help) I agreed." That's a smart move. Bravo Matt. In another subject, I'm surprised (and sad ?) that HN doesn't give any tips, tools for all the possible victims.
  • steveklabnik 13y ago
    > without all informations Which more information would you need? There are two other people that corroborate her story, and Joe says he's not saying anything.
    • BenderV 13y ago
• avelis 13y ago
  I think one question I have is how do we encourage a culture to not allow bystanders? It's an open question, but I hypothesize, if Joe was also my boss, would I have the courage to say something? I want to say I hope I do. I also hypothesize, what if I did say something before a victim situation took place, but as a result I was let go. Should I have stayed quiet? I ask these questions in hopes of shedding light more so on the bystander problem and the responsibility as people to speak up towards others about behaviors we know are not ok.
  • steveklabnik 13y ago
    > I have is how do we encourage a culture to not allow bystanders? A lot of this happens because of an inter-relation of other beliefs. For example, some people do not intervene because they believe that she must deserve it. Another factor is that stepping forward means risking yourself. People err on the side of caution. Maybe they don't have the full story... I also wonder what I would have done...
• downandout 13y ago
  Her boss should not have even attempted to have a fling with her - that exposes the company to liability, and he was rightly fired. It's pretty obvious that she didn't feel that this was enough punishment for his behavior, and has now publicly named him in an attempt to extract her idea of justice out of the situation. It would be interesting to see if he responds with any kind of legal action, as I imagine that he has a side to the story as well. From her own description of the incident, she was voluntarily allowing intimate conduct until she told him to stop, at which point he did. Assuming the blog post is the same story she would have given to police, this certainly wouldn't have made for a criminal case even if she had filed a report. She certainly has a right to feel violated, and to publish an accurate description of what happened if she so chooses. I just have a feeling that the guy involved is going to take some form of legal action and that he may indeed have a case for libel - however unfair that may be in the eyes of herself or others. It's just a bad situation all around, which is why bosses should avoid such encounters with their employees at all costs.
  • chris_wot 13y ago
    Assuming the blog post is the same story she would have given to police, this certainly wouldn't have made for a criminal case even if she had filed a report. He penetrated her. It sure as hell IS sexual assault!
    • brazzy 13y ago
      How many times have you penetrated someone without explicitly asking for consent? Many, many times, I'm willing to bet (assuming that you're male).
      • chris_wot 13y ago
        Then you would be wrong. Never.
        • brazzy 13y ago
          Then you have a rather broad definition of "explicitly asking for consent", or very strange relationships.
• icecreampain 13y ago
  This article confuses me. 1. Why do work collegues party with each other? Isn't work for work and non-work for non-work? Why mix the two? That's asking for shit, throwing professionality out the window. At my recent places of employ I have religously avoided any private contact with my collegues. This gives me an air of professionality and a sense of trust = "Icecreampain will treat me fairly because he is not best friends with the boss or married to the CEO". 2. Body shots, in my world, are reserved to college students who are going to party and fuck all night, and ... yeah, that's about it. I can't see 40 och 60 year olds doing body shots because it's the in thing to do at a bar. 3. Writing about such an experience, a drunken stupor at a bar, and accusing people of this and that smacks of, as others have said, the behaviour that that false Adria Richards character displayed at Pycon. She accused people of sexism while previously having written sexist and racist articles herself, then trying to get social media on her side by photographing a couple of real developers - just to get herself a few more minutes of fame. I can't condone exposing other people's privacy like this and, thanks to people like the hypocrite Adria Richards, I'm always suspect of any cries of "assault" or "rape". Too many people have cried wolf for me to automatically believe one person's account of a situation. And the witnesses? I'm suspectful of their allegiances: see point 1. If a crime was committed it's up to the courts system to decide, not her or her blog followers. Even if the courts dismiss the case, at least her police report will contribute to statistics. So why not report it to the police (preferrably the day after)?
  • throwaway9848 13y ago
    Like some other posts note, there are eyewitnesses (including a pair that wrote about it). It's very unlikely to be made up, even though her account is very one-sided. Sadly, it's really clear from this post that this poor young woman has other issues in her life. And those issues will probably not be improved with the way she's chosen to handle this unfortunate event.
  • kalleth 13y ago
    I'm not going to speak to your other points, but I agree with your final point. We have a rule of law in our country (the UK), the same as you do in yours. This smells like a lynching. I think generally it's important to believe the victim, but also believe that the accused is innocent until proven otherwise, in a court of law, by a jury of their peers. Our criminal justice systems cannot work unless this is true. Everyone is so insistent that victims be believed that they forget about 'innocent until proven guilty'.
• chris_wot 13y ago
  I have a few things to say. This is, frankly, appalling! Justice should never have been asked to do "body shots", and her boss should have been charged with a criminal offense. The second thing I'd like to say is an anecdote from some time ago when I went to VMWare's vSohere conference in Sydney. I drink alcohol, but only ever in moderation ad I never get drunk. The reason for this is that in my teenage years I got drunk once - once! - and soe terrible things happened. I swore never to get drunk again. So at the end of the first conference night, when the Hoodoo Gurus were playing, I was discussing business and shooting he breeze with clients and VMware partners, with a lass of champagne in one hand. Silly me, but I didn't pay much attention to th servers, who kept topping up my champagne glass. I went home drunk, without even being aware of it. I had a hang over the next day. I don't feel it was my fault in the case. VMware has a responsibilty to ensure that conference attendees don't get drunk on the conference floor. Frankly, conferences and alcohol don't mix. It should be stopped fully if conference organisers can't serve alcohol responsibly.
  • sneak 13y ago
    > VMware has a responsibilty to ensure that conference attendees don't get drunk on the conference floor. I don't like drunks or being drunk, but you totally lost me here. You're just making stuff up.
    • chris_wot 13y ago
      In Australia, they do. http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_reg/lr2008198/ http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/nsw/consol_reg/lr2008198/
  • anu_gupta 13y ago
    I think you've been very lucky, you could easily have ended up being trafficked or your body organs harvested. You clearly have a legitimate case, are you taking legal action against VMWare and everyone who could have seen your glass being topped up?
    • chris_wot 13y ago
• Grue3 13y ago
  This post has confirmed every stereotype I heard about Ruby programmers.
• Sagat 13y ago
  A tragic event but I really don't understand how making a public blog post is supposed to make anything better.
  • steveklabnik 13y ago
    Please read the last paragraph. She didn't want to make this post, but an outcry for details from the community forced her hand.
    • Sagat 13y ago
      I did, it's just that they didn't make it clear who the "community" was and how they had gotten wind of the problem, and what exactly they were demanding and how they were demanding it. In any case, I still think she should have gone through a different route. Why should masses of strangers dictate whether or not you have reveal personal information? I really wish I could help this person (assuming the story is accurate, since some HN posters have pointed out that there are conflicting versions) but the only thing I can think of saying to her is to keep it within the circle of persons who are actually concerned by the whole incident, and seek reparations through legal channels. Nothing good comes out of involving a bunch of internet followers. I'd rather a formal investigation was made instead of witnessing a bunch of armchair detectives harass O'Brien without knowing all of the facts. One of my friends has had to deal with false accusations of a similar nature coming from his deranged ex, so I'd like to know beyond reasonable doubt what happened before thirsting for vengeance.
      • steveklabnik 13y ago
        There are not conflicting versions. You had to read Twitter to see the deluge of requests from Rubyists wanting gory details. Making it public helps keep others safe by allowing them to know to be very careful around someone while he is drinking.
    • general_failure 13y ago
      "forced her hand" Oh my. This is assault. She was forced to do something she didn't want to. The exact definition of assault. Which community is this? Are you part of this community? Why are we not exposing this community. Steve, please help us expose this vile and malicious community which forces people. Today it's blogs. Tomorrow who know what it is.
• copx 13y ago
  Reading the comments here makes me think I am in bizarro world. Is expecting women to say "No!" already too much personal responsibility for them these days? Calling this "sexual assault" is just crazy. There was no force, she never told him to stop. This would be thrown out in court without question in any half-way sane country.
  • steveklabnik 13y ago
    Consent is not defined by the absence of a no, but a presence of a yes. The situation described falls within the definition of sexual assault in the United States, at least. I am not a lawyer. Decide for yourself: http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2907.03 http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2907.03
    • wilkie 13y ago
      'a presence of a yes and the lack of coercion,' since sexual assault is generally defined by this. Him being her employer, and thus responsible for her career, can certainly be asserted as possible coercion, even if there is any implied 'yes', which I don't think there was at any rate.
      • steveklabnik 13y ago
        Yes, thank you. Coercion is an incredibly important part of this.
    • lawnchair_larry 13y ago
      > Consent is not defined by the absence of a no, but a presence of a yes. As nice as that sounds, there isn't a shred of truth to it in the real world. Pre-emptively asking a female before making a move will get you shut down every time. You're supposed to read the situation, pick up on signals, and often be a little bit psychic. Show me a female who wants you to explicitly ask permission before every action and I'll show you a liar.
      • steveklabnik 13y ago
• reledi 13y ago
  There's always a huge amount of drinking at tech gatherings. Please do yourself and your peers a favour by knowing when to stop drinking. It helps to have a drink limit and sticking to it, no matter if others encourage you to drink more. I'm going to sound like an advertisement, but please drink responsibly.
• Tichy 13y ago
  I don't understand that story. Why did she let it happen? I'm sorry for what was done to her, but there seem to be a lot of misunderstanding and misguided assumptions that led to the mistake. She doesn't seem to be aware that she was coming on to the guys (ie doing body shots, then being shocked when colleague X takes the picture). For me it is rather another example how a woman can destroy a man's life at a whim with a rape accusation.
• dylangs1030 13y ago
  I emailed the author, Justine. I encourage everyone to do the same thing, with a heartfelt note about what you feel. It might make her day. I want to remind the more intellectually-inclined of this community that this does not need to be analyzed and defragmented. Let the story stand on its own and hold its own weight. Basically, what I am saying is this - if you have a point that would be really good in a debate, but won't win you any points at a party, don't make it here, and don't make it right now. In a situation like this, it's more important for the community to be supportive or not say anything at all, than to descend into a maelstrom of arguments about who's judgement is clouded by bias or who's sexist/insensitive and "doesn't get it." We don't need to win debates at the cost of empathy right now. We need to show support in positive, affirming ways.
• ElliotH 13y ago
  It actually doesn't matter if this particular account is true (I think it almost certainly is, but the point isn't worth arguing). Or any of the other niggles and counterpoints people are raising. We can just decide that the story as described is a terrible thing to happen. We decide that if we see something similar happening, we will try our best to prevent it.
• eddiedunn 13y ago
  I'm disgusted by this whole thing. Here's a lot of people jumping to conclusions based on the one-sided account of one person's blog post. Hasn't it occurred to you people that she might be lying? I'm not saying she is, but there is a possibility. We have legal processes for a reason. Based on her account alone, I can say this: 1. She's very emotionally unstable and needs to seek professional help, for her own sake as well as everyone else's 2. She believes she was sexually assaulted, and consequently needs to report this to the police 3. Making a blog post about it was a big mistake if she has any hopes of the legal system punishing the man that sexually assaulted her Finally, we live in a society where the man is supposed to "take initiative" and be "assertive and confident". You may say that it sucks, and I won't argue against you, but that's just the way it is. So men will do try to do things that women will not always appreciate. Consequently women _need_ to learn how to say "NO". This is really fucking important, for their own sake. I imagine things would've played out a lot differently if Justine had taken responsibility for herself -- that she was in a bad situation with a man, but a situation that she, being a grown woman, could get out of by loudly saying "NO". Instead she asked the guy about his wife and kids. Instead she stood there passively until a knight in shining armor saved her -- too late. Women are not children. They need to learn, or be taught, to stand up for themselves. There won't always be someone there to defend them. Dealing with this fact is part of growing up.
  • steveklabnik 13y ago
    > based on the one-sided account of one person's blog post. ... as well as corroboration by two other witnesses.
    • deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
    • Dalkore 13y ago
      Can you point me to this please. I would like to read their corroboration of this event. It would help my opinion much more. This situation is so grey area that another perspective would help. Please link, thank you so much.
• beloch 13y ago
  Somewhat tangential query for people who know something about psychiatry: My standard way of dealing with shit is to repress it. If I get angry, sad, etc. the first thing I do is squash the emotion (anger is generally the biggest problem but the easiest to squish). If circumstances may cause that negative emotion to reoccur, I take reasonable action to prevent it from doing so whenever possible (It's hard to bring your grandma back to life unfortunately), but only after going smoosh and possibly sleeping on it. Some people say you should vent your emotions, but if I do that I just feel worse. Here (finally) is the question: Do the scary consequences of repressed memories that keep popping up in movies and TV actually exist? If something horrifyingly traumatic happens to me and I just repress it and move on, am I setting myself up for trouble down the road? I ask this because there's no doubting a bad thing happened to Justine but, were I in her shoes, I'd have repressed that shit right then and there. I wouldn't have done nothing, but squish would be my definite step #1.
  • sneak 13y ago
    It's different for different people. I know many people end up having to somehow internally confront and process things that happened to them that they had previously deferred. I don't really think a queue is the right mental model. If you suffer trauma and choose not to feel, but indeed have memory, you must continue to be just as committed to choosing not to feel for as long as you remember. Failing that, you will eventually have emotions about the trauma at some point. I don't think people are very good at keeping those types of defenses in place for years upon years.
  • rsanheim 13y ago
    Yes, repressed emotions and trauma will manifest in some way for many, many people. For some people it can manifest physically, via stress, psychosomatic illness, etc. For others it may be depression or anxiety. You have to deal with your shit.
• tuananh 13y ago
  After reading Matt Darby's post[1], I had the feeling Justine definitely mislead Joe. Justine got her ass grabbed and still do body-shot !? Joe is an ass, def. but part of it is Justine's fault too. [1] http://blog.matt-darby.com/essays/i-am-the-other-developer http://blog.matt-darby.com/essays/i-am-the-other-developer
• armandososa 13y ago
  I simply can't understand how smart people on their own will gather around with the only purpose of ingesting chemical compounds that are designed to make them stupid.
  • cefarix 13y ago
    This is one of the things that most baffles me about alcohol culture in general, but specially in the American tech industry which is supposed to have smart people. Although my primary reason for abstaining from alcohol is a religious one, I also certainly agree with your point from a secular point of view as well.
• bobsy 13y ago
  Joe's behaviour is completely unacceptable. Her treatment at work like some leper again is unacceptable though some this could be attributed to awkwardness on how to broach the subject or if it should be talked about at all. Two things strike me though: Shots off of Justine's stomach. The best response I have heard from a girl in a mixed group when asked to do it was "I will do it if you do it first." It turns it from another girl doing shots on the bar to a weird group activity which is silly, not sexual. Obviously a straight up no would suffice, who cares what a drunk person says? The second thing was how it went down. During a recent stag do a random girl walked over to one of our group and kissed him randomly without warning or anything. The guy pushed her away, recoiled in horror and said with a look of despair "she - put - her - tongue - in - my - mouth!?" We laughed but seriously, we knew it wasn't consensual, if she went back in we would have pulled her away. I feel this is the correct response to being jumped on. This or a loud no. Not reciprocating, then questioning whether the wife would mind is not a no. Standing there awkwardly waiting for it to be over does not convey stop and it doesn't give friends an opportunity to come to the rescue. Without a no the lack of participation can suggest hesitation. Asking about the wife perhaps reinforces this. "Oh so thats why you are slow getting into it. Don't worry about her." From the outside the lack of no and look of awkwardness could suggest this isn't something you do very often. Not that you want it to stop. Justine is not at fault in the slightest. Joe forced himself on her. That said I wonder how differently things would have been if she straight up said no or even pushed him away.
  • britta 13y ago
    It can be really hard, almost impossibly hard, to make decisions when you're suddenly confronted with a situation that breaks your understanding of a person you trust (especially a person who has power over you, and especially a situation that seriously violates social norms) - at that moment, you're intensely confused, with a big "WTF" blaring in your head, your brain is flooding with panic and adrenaline...it's not hard to understand freezing up and just making the small efforts that are all you can manage, while hoping that it won't escalate (even while it keeps escalating). It would be great for everyone to be able to bypass that shocked paralysis and immediately push away their attackers, but it's not realistic.
• Touche 13y ago
  I'm sick of this bullshit convention culture that allows stuff like this to happen. The CodeMash sponsors should be fleeing from the event and be embarrassed. I'm a fucking professional, not a frat boy. I like to socially drink as much as the next person but a fucking professional convention is not the place for it. CodeMash is responsible for this incident; they created a situation where a woman, overwhelming minority in this type of place I'm sure, was compelled to engage in this person to the point where it escalated to this level. It's fucking sickening. I for one vow not to attend another convention where drinking is part of the event. We are fucking professionals, people. Stop trying to prove how hip you are.
  • jvanenk 13y ago
    Because of the timing, it's unlikely this was done in response to this incident, but CodeMash did update its code of conduct on September 26th. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/codemash/abX4UEL4vG4/eI2UNu6qLwkJ https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/codemash/abX4UEL4vG4/e...
  • empthought 13y ago
    Oh come on -- this was in the hotel bar before the conference even began. It was not an event in any way associated with Codemash except for the fact that Justine and her boss were both there for the conference. Where's your ire and indignation for the bartenders, hotel staff, and the firm where they both worked? Codemash, its organizers and sponsors aren't even on the radar for "people not actually the assailant yet are somehow responsible for the assailant's behavior."
• deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
• dodyg 13y ago
  What makes Joe a piece of shit is that he hasn't even apologized to her. When you fucked up this badly, the least you can do is to apologize to your victim.
  • general_failure 13y ago
    and you know this, how?
    • dodyg 13y ago
      Maybe because I actually read the post?
• mattsfrey 13y ago
  Saw this comment on her blog, pretty much sums up my sentiments exactly: twisted says: Since this entered public debate i feel the need to leave my own remarks. - Unfortunately, since we are fallable human beings, awkward situations will always happen. It’s mostly about how we behave during these and how we confront these afterwards that makes the ‘story’. - The chance for such awkward situations rises even more so when intoxicated, which everyone seems to have been, by their own chosing, and when reflecting on such situations one should always be aware of the fact that they might not have been in that situation or avoided some of it, had they been in full control of themselves (and even influence others). - There are multiple ways to deal with such an incident, both to resolve the awkwardness between the parties invloved as well as with any personal trauma. - Drinking those troubles away must not have helped your own mental condition and you should seek some kind of outside help & support. Putting this in the public space, i hope you are prepared to deal with this for a while longer and not only on your own terms. Don’t pull the ‘in a mens field’ argument as to why you agreed to do body shots. It was a conference, they were colleagues, you were drunk, it was a bad idea. Could group dynamics have been playing a role there? It would surprise me if not. It was a bad suggestion by him, and it was a bad decision by you to do it. Even if things didn’t spin out of control from then on, i think anyone that’s had a few drinks too many or witnessed someone who had, on a company / wedding / other semi-official party has done things that they would later have to digest in one way or another. Be it because they were just plain embarassing, or because they lead to inappropriate actions with potential consequences. This could be smashing in a window, violence, emotional outbursts, just plain old puking embarassment.. or, well, sexual things, for the sake of my point let’s assume the choice here is random. We’ve all been there at least once, or witnessed it with others at least once in our lives. So who’s to blame? All of you are, to some extent. This was not a case of planned, deliberate, sexual assault. It was a gathering of intoxicated people that spun out of control and produced a consequencial situation. In the key-turning points leading up to it both of you made bad decisions. In the disarming-phase both of you made bad decisions. And in the resolutions and consequences both of you made bad decisions. Key turning points leading up to the event, where BOTH of you could have made better decisions? - stopped drinking earlier - remained more distanced & in control, perhaps parting with the group to ‘freshen up’ - neither suggest not participate in body shots - not touch & not tolerate touching, BEFORE it got too weird - realize the own error (Joe), standing up for yourself immediately (You) Please note how each involved could have changed the outcome here. There is no single person at complete fault here, up to the point where you should have clearly said NO and he should have clearly accepted that and apologized. Of course it is obvious that it is wrong to start touching in the first place. Joe shouldn’t have started with the inappropriate touching. He shouldn’t have done that. As ‘the guy with the company credit card’ he should have been more responsible in getting everyone drunk, including himself. Apparently even he lost control of his proper judgement and he will have to deal with the consequences in a – i dare say – similarly difficult way. He has a family, they too will probably read this. Add to this that ‘men are usually at fault’. In your report i do not see any mention of you telling him a NO because of YOUR concern for yourself. You should have done that. Inappropriate things happen when drinking. Don’t get me wrong, i’m not defending Joe here but i want to be bluntly realistic. Wether we like it or not, and wether anyone wants to name this sexist or not, the fact remains that we reproduce by pairing male and female, involving a not-so-hard-to-understand set of triggers, acts leading up to conception. Drinking lowers the threshold of control over inappropriateness. And drinking out of someones navel is a bodily undertaking involving visual, physical stimuli and smell, which transports very powerful hormonal agents. Compare this to sitting across desks in a semi-sterile restaurant setting, it’s inarguably A LOT FURTHER into our pairing process. This makes the potential for such an incident not only incredibly obvious but also forseeable. Both of you should have known better. Despite all the gender discussions, equal rights movements, sexist-calling and so forth, we won’t refute biology just by force of will and most of our society is based on certain ‘agreements’ to keep basic primate instincts under control. Wishful thinking won’t change that, neither will blaming men (or women if you will, although there is a clear bias here in current times). I’m not saying that inappropriate actions are OK, neither am i promoting that sexual assault should be tolerated, what i’m saying is that under these circumstances the former will continue to happen (and this is only such a big issue as we let it become and make of it) and we have to deal with it, while the second, the assault, is not really applicable here if you ask me. The way this whole situation has played out is only one of many possible and i would assume, also based on how public this has become by now, this is easily one of the worse cases of dealing with it. I will leave you with two hints. The first is, you should stand up for yourself more. In a healthy way. You worried about his wife, your job, while you should have acted in yor own best interest. With enough self confidence i can easily envision turning this into much less of an incident than it has – both for yourself and for Joe. The second is, that you should confront yourself and then others earlier. Drinking during the conference, the time after it, letting it rot your own mental state, that of your relationship and ultimately your desire for ‘justice’ regarding Joes exit seems an unhealthy way to work out issues, no matter what kind. Welcome to Berlin. People get drunk here too, and people undergo the mating circus here as well. I hope you will recover from your trauma soon. And i hope you can accept your own role in this as well as distinguish and define Joes mistakes. I also hope he will manage the same things and will be more respectful and responsible in the future. Maybe the two of you can one day have the conversation over this that you should have had the next morning.
• lawnchair_larry 13y ago
  I feel bad for Joe. What he did was not malicious. He is not an abuser or predator. He did a dumb thing. This story isn't about a rapist or someone who preys on women. It's about a drunk man who thought he was going to score. A man who was becoming increasingly physical with a woman who he was attracted to, and who invited him to do a body shot after he had grabbed her ass. For those who don't know what body shots are, that's when a girl lays down on the bar, lifts her shirt, and holds a lime in her mouth. The bartender pours tequila in her navel, and another party drinks it from her stomach, and then, using his mouth takes the lime she is holding in her mouth, which amounts to a kiss. It's unquestionably sexual. Here is a picture: http://pubcrawlba.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/body-shot-11.jpg http://pubcrawlba.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/body-s... "Body shots" are not a normal thing Americans do at conferences. I say that not to judge, but to provide context. I've been to a lot of industry parties, with a lot of alcohol, and a lot of very drunk (or high) "party animals", and haven't seen this done. I think most people would associate it with those "Girls Gone Wild" ads that used to run. For the record, it's not normal or appropriate to exchange backrubs and forehead kisses with male coworkers either. I'm a bit shocked that she said such behavior with her coworkers was common. The reason this matters is that this is certain to confuse people about their relationship with you. So this man, a drunk, sexual being, who was not holding someone against their will or being violent, kept testing his boundaries and not receiving any indication that he had crossed a line. In fact, it's perfectly reasonable to interpret that after sexually touching her, and she invited him to lick her body and take a lime from her lips, that she was very much into this. In fact, a reasonable person could make this interpretation while completely sober. Then, she never says she doesn't want the behavior, but instead she says he has a wife and kids. "Well, if that's the only thing stopping us, I have great news...I have permission from my wife!" he says. This isn't placing blame. Don't reply telling me about victim blaming. It's a bad miscommunication. He needed to be less drunk, she needed to be more clear. Both of them made very poor decisions. The fact that she did body shots for complicated reasons while masking discomfort to fit in is not his problem. She wanted to look like she was into it, as she said, and she was successful in giving him this impression. He has no way of knowing this, and no way of knowing that the party girl laying on the bar secretly doesn't want him to partake. Regardless, this is stupid, juvenile behavior on his part, which he would not have done sober. He likely knows this and is deeply ashamed. I know many commenters here are probably less experienced when it comes to "hooking up" casually. To you, this all sounds straightforward. The vast majority of the sexually active population does not work in this straightforward way that you think - male and female. No man has ever touched the rear of any female by first asking bluntly, "Is it alright if I touch your butt?". No woman has ever told a man, "I would now like you to touch my butt." Yet, there is a non-negligible part of the population who likes to touch and be touched, and it isn't assault. What happened here was all kinds of inappropriate, but it wasn't malicious. It's extremely inappropriate to vilify this man given the nature of the offense. And it's certainly not his fault that she became an alcoholic and got a DUI. That sounds like a cop-out to me. He's now been publicly named and shamed, which will be permanently on the internet and searchable for the rest of his life, because one night he had drunk wandering hands on a female who he thought was inviting the attention. Edit: Whoa, wait just a minute here. We glossed over something fairly significant. "In recent months this year I’ve been arrested, charged with a DUI, involved in second intervention classes..." She got a DUI. She just threw that in there, non-chalantly. She operated a vehicle while intoxicated. Most who get a DUI don't get caught their first time, so she may have even developed a habit of it. Still, with the benefit of the doubt, even doing this once is very serious. There is a high risk that you can maim or kill innocent people while driving drunk. Why is this not a huge controversy, and why is anyone forgiving her? Because we all make mistakes, she was drunk, she's taken steps to get help with her problem, and so on? But here we are going to crucify someone who got too drunk and put his hands down her pants.
• scotty79 13y ago
  I am very much against any sort of violence but I think I can make exception for female slapping male in the face in such situations. I was once hitting on a girl I had complicated relationship with (close friends/was my love interest/was her rebound). I was way too physically insistent (although definitely not to the point described by OP) and she slapped me. It brought me so much clarity instantly. It kicked me out of the haze of arousal (no alcohol was involved at all) for long enough to notice what the f*ck I am just doing. It communicated her point of view to me in an instant. Far better than any words we exchanged could. I am (and always was) a man who absolutely abhors sexual assaults (even more than other kinds of assaults). I always wanted to avoid forcing anyone to do anything. Yet, slap in the face was perfect for me to prevent me from causing the person I loved and was incredibly attracted to, further discomfort. None of the above should be read as any kind of victim blaming. I'm not saying "she should have just slapped him". I'm firmly behind the idea that there's never a reason to advice any victim of any incident after the fact and that in case of assault, motivation of the attacker is not a thing that should ever be considered. It's totally unimportant that he was aroused, pissed off, drunk, jolly, grieving whatever. If you apply any sort of physical means against unwilling person that's the only thing that counts. Other thing is that I think much of the damage was done by the fact that the offender hasn't been confronted with the victim. He should be put in position of powerlessness for her to see. Keeping the whole thing PC and under radar resulted in her never being able to close the case for herself.
• lnanek2 13y ago
  Pretty amazing boyfriend. She got upset at him touching her, so he slept on the couch with his ankles belted together so he wouldn't get back in bed out of sleepiness/habit. Wow.
  • enko 13y ago
    Yeah, "amazing" is not really the word I was thinking of. There's a lot that is strange about this story, and that detail about the boyfriend tying his legs together with a belt is just the icing on the cake. That is bizarre, almost disturbing behaviour. I am not going to comment on the case at all but for me several details from this article cast a very strange light on the whole scene, and that one just takes the cake.
    • gregd 13y ago
      Have you ever lived with, much less been in love with a victim of sexual assault? This is hardly bizarre, almost disturbing behavior, given the circumstances. I can imagine Justine lashing out at her boyfriend because she may not have properly addressed what happened to her.
      • enko 13y ago
        Have I ever lived with someone who had unwelcome sexual advances made to her at a party? Yep. In fact I myself have been the victim of "sexual assault", to use your rather inclusive definition. I would imagine a large proportion of the population have. I was not there, but taking the post at face value, it was right for Joe to be dismissed. His behaviour was inappropriate and unprofessional. The company's whitewashing was also regrettable. But I have difficulty dismissing the notion that the rather extreme reaction from Justine is indicative of some underlying issues she might have. I concur with the top-voted comment that she may benefit from therapy. What Joe did was wrong, yes. But there is no line that connects that dot with Justine's boyfriend tying his fucking ankles together while sleeping on a couch. That is something else entirely, and I stand by what I said.
        • 13y ago
• volvelle 13y ago
  Why has she not reported this to the police? Why did HR not do it also? Sexual assault is defined in law, and many people are (rightly) convicted and imprisoned over these serious offences every year. Justine is not averse to talking about the issue with strangers over the Internet; why is the law any different? In order to secure an arrest, the police need to be satisfied a crime has occurred (multiple witnesses are usually a good way to ascertain, for which there are at least two). For a conviction, a jury needs to be satisfied. The best way to do this? With evidence and witnesses. Even with two witnesses to this case who have come out publicly, no doubt the bartenders can be found too (location, time, staff time sheets). It's highly likely there is CCTV footage too, particularly on the bar itself. Is this genuine? I say that because I was not there, did not witness it, and do not know any of the people involved; including their judgement under drugs (alcohol) and their truthfulness. If this is genuine, why not use the full force of the law to bring a criminal to justice?
  • chris_wot 13y ago
    It's often very hard for a victim to report a sexual assault. I hope she does, but you can't force someone to.
    • volvelle 13y ago
      That is simply not the case. This is America, not Africa. There are scores of charities and organisations that can help. With some cursory Googling: http://www.rainn.org/get-information/legal-information http://www.rainn.org/get-information/legal-information. The author is happy to broadcast their account of this alleged assault to the public, so I don't think they'd have an issue reporting it to the authorities with the help of a charity. Statute of limitations is a few years on this so there is still time. If you've nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear. This cuts both ways in a court of law, and the claims of an accuser are seldom taken at face value without reliable independent witness. It is innocent until proven guilty, so that the facts of the case can be used to ascertain guilt. If the author really cares about justice, about women in IT, about sending a message, then they will do the right thing and prosecute. Unless of course the author is lying (wouldn't be the first time it has happened in a sexual assault case)...
• chris_wot 13y ago
  I'm curious as to why this is now not on the front page?
  • steveklabnik 13y ago
    Flags and lack of upvotes :/
    • chris_wot 13y ago
      There are a LOT of upvotes.
      • steveklabnik 13y ago
        Right but they have all been from a while back. The number has been stable for a while.
• gibbitz 13y ago
  Consentual non consentual, they both needed to be letgo. Just because everyone does it doesn't make it okay to get drunk with coworkers on business trips. The company handled this the only way they could. If she wanted to own victimhood she should have pressed charges. It sickens me that she suffered so much, andiI hope she feels better getting this off her chest, but no matter the obviousness of wrong doing, in our society you have to push the authorities for the justice you deserve. The system doesn't do that for you.
• tmslnz 13y ago
  Carried away. Both made a mistake. Both were pissed. He thought he was scoring, she thought she had to do it to fit in. This is far from being an assault, rather a gross misunderstanding. He lost the job, she feels like he needs to be punished further. If anyone boy or girl, man or woman had to claim assault anytime someone tries the big step on the other, we'd all be in jail. Did she push him away? No, she "didn't reciprocate". He likely didn't even notice in the drunken excitement and there you go. They both fucked up, but one of the two feel more wronged. Also all the framing in the macho software industry doesn't help, including the employee/employer relation. Peace. And love. Could it be that simple?
• icecreampain 13y ago
  I do so very much enjoy the posts that say "Joe is an absolute asshole, pig and chauvinist and should be led out to the shed and shot, but Justine xyz...". It says a lot about society that in order for anyone to criticize a woman, one must first seek absolution by criticizing the man first, and harsher, than the woman.
• rhaphazard 13y ago
  I'd like to point out that alcohol does reduce inhibition but doesn't actually cause you to perform any action you wouldn't willingly do sober.
• nabeards 13y ago
  I am just baffled at how many people feel this was an "accident" or that she's somehow partly to blame by her actions. A crime was committed, she didn't need to say "yes" for consent, and it was done in public (Wha?!?). There are at least two witnesses who came forward prior to her post, and yet people are still putting out the "maybe she's lying!" argument. What a sad community this has become.
• general_failure 13y ago
  I see this whole blog like skydiving off a plane. You know what it involves. Mid-dive you cannot change your mind. You have to live with your decision, it's too late to go back. It's called being 'responsible', 'mature', 'growing up'. You need to understand what your decisions mean. If you keep your head, there's a good chance you will make it to the ground safely. It was surely traumatic but you are atleast living.
• klaustopher 13y ago
  I don't want to comment on the post itself or the comments. But one thing confuses me. Please help me to understand: Is it a custom thing in the US that legal issues like this are handled by an HR department within the company instead of the legal system? The blog post states that she reported it to HR. Over here, if something like this came to their knowledge, they would be required to forward this to the proper authorities. She can recount the whole incident and has at least two witnesses that confirm her story (more might show up during a police investigation). No authority (at least in this part of the world) would refuse to investigate this case and bring it in front of a court. Is this different in the US?
• dwaltrip 13y ago
  What happened is quite awful, but I'm amazed that no one has talked about an important issue: how much her support group failed her if no one was willing to talk her regularily or even suggest that she go to therapy. And they all thought the way to help her through the rest of conference was by getting her as drunk as often as possible? WTF? I think a lot problems in the following months could have been lessened with some proper support, therapy, and dealing with the alcohol issues.
• pg 13y ago
  I apologize to the world for this thread. There are clearly topics that an open forum, or at least this one, can't be trusted with, and this seems to be one of them. We have some ideas for new moderation features that we hope will make comment threads more civil. I don't know if they would have helped in this case though. The one thing that did work here is the flamewar detector. This story dropped off the frontpage extra fast, after which the only people seeing this discussion were people who sought it out.
  • pinaceae 13y ago
    thank you pg.
  • deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  • chris_wot 13y ago
    I was one of those people. I apologise if I brought more heat than light.
    • britta 13y ago
      You did an admirable job of responding to piles of comments that needed Consent 101. (Civility isn't even the main problem here - so many of people's comments were superficially civil but callous and misinformed. HN needs empathy, compassion, willingness to listen. It's not impossible to shift culture - Metafilter has improved a lot, but doing that required human effort from its leaders and not just software.)
      • chris_wot 13y ago
        I think a number of my comments were somewhat regrettable. I stand by most of them, but I could do better.
      • michaeldhopkins 13y ago
        I am a happy member and longtime reader of MetaFilter but I wouldn't look to it as a positive example. MetaFilter has several full-time moderators who, because they feel they need to be doing something, are stifling discussion and deleting a lot of threads. Many long-time, valuable members have left the site because of staff decisions. Meanwhile, a group of noisy, low-value users are mostly allowed to bully others, mock people different than them and even write death threats from time to time. MetaFilter prides itself on being a place that knows all about Consent™ etc. and maybe that is worth everything else, but it's not a place where people can get together and have a civil discussion.
• brohee 13y ago
  "Hugs hand forehead kisses have always been a big part of my relationships with my co-workers. We were always a tight knit family. But now I felt it was all wrong." Possibly because it was all wrong... Not that it excuses nor explains the assault, a drunkard could possibly assault anyone for any reason, but colleagues are not family nor friends...