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Valve's main objective was probably to replicate the keyboard/mouse combo rather than improve or alter the standard joystick gamepad (like the X360 Controller).

by bbx 13y ago

Valve's main objective was probably to replicate the keyboard/mouse combo rather than improve or alter the standard joystick gamepad (like the X360 Controller). In the end, it looks like a controller halfway between these 2 types of input. The main problem with a controller-based "mouse" (and it shows in the video) is that you control the cursor with only your thumb rather than your full hand gently set down on your desktop. I guess we'll never obtain a perfect alternative to the mouse. And the Steam controller will probably leave both joystick users and mouse users somehow frustrated because it tries to be both at the same time. But considering the variety of Steam's library, it was probably Valve's only solution. Anyway, like this comment, everything still remains speculation until you've tried it yourself (for a reasonable amount of time).

Steko 13y ago
"I guess we'll never obtain a perfect alternative to the mouse" Because Valve's first effort doesn't completely replace a mouse? That seems a bit defeatist. "control the cursor with only your thumb rather than your full hand " Control with the thumb vs hand isn't the problem so much as that thumbs are not pointy like mouse lasers. Valve should look at adding a tiny fingertip digitizer. Of course they are still lacking proper text entry and sitting out motion input (i.e. the big innovation in the last 10 years), voice input (the big innovation over the last 5 years) and telepresence isn't going to be a core feature unlike all the competition. And of course they are going to be the most expensive option with the least bang for the buck.
- keeperofdakeys 13y ago
  I really don't see why they would want to add motion input. In most situations I've seen it used, it has been little more than a gimmick.
- alan_cx 13y ago
  "Because Valve's first effort doesn't completely replace a mouse? That seems a bit defeatist." The mouse was patented in 1947. Since then is has not been bettered. Valve are not the first to try.
ChuckMcM 13y ago
That was my thought as well. Basically the mouse has a huge range of motion and you can very aggressively move it and execute commands with buttons while moving. That doesn't work on track pads or presumably on this demo yet. Moves that would be one mouse stroke from left corner to right corner, become three or four "strokes" of the touch pad. And if you make the touch pad sensitive that this is a single stroke, then fine movement is compromised. I keep hoping for something like the nunchuck controller on the Wii where the nunchuk can keep track of its absolute coordinates and you then can do fine movement in the center of the box and large movement on the outer edges.
socillion 13y ago
There would be two disadvantages compared to traditional mouse-and-keyboard: 1) a low number of total possible bindings, and 2) a lower range of possible movements compared to a mouse. 1) is straightforward, if you don't have enough input buttons you're out of luck. A problem for games like SC2 and WoW. 2) this problem forces you to use acceleration for input, which is commonly accepted to ruin precision (reproducibility) because you lose the easy mapping between inches and pixels. I'll use Team Fortress 2 (an FPS) as an example for this. First, if 180 degrees takes more than 1 swipe, the controls are effectively unusable. The demonstration indicates this may be the case. You need to be able to flip 180 degrees to check your back, as well as make other large and fast movements like those required by rocket jumping. At the same time, you also need the ability to make very small aim adjustments. It's guaranteed that the trackpad will be weak somewhere along this variety of movements. It's unsurprising that it will be a poor replacement for mouse and keyboard, but existing controllers have demonstrated that people are fine with sacrificing resolution of controls for other advantages like relative simplicity and easily playing with friends.
- TheEskimo 13y ago
  In regards to the 180 degree spin, this demonstration shows exactly the opposite of what you say. At about 1:34 (elevator in portal 2) he performs a 180 with a single swipe from left to right.
- optymizer 13y ago
  Having played all StarCraft games so far, somewhat well, I can get by with maybe 8 buttons as Protoss: A, H, E, P, B, V, G, Z. Other races might need other buttons, but 8 is reasonable. If I remember correctly, the Steam Controller has 16 buttons. The other functionality is 1 click away and is (usually) not hat time sensitive, if you are not from Korea :-) obviously it's not for competitive players. Also, flipping the camera 180 degrees can be achieved with a button press. I think I remember Need For Speed having this feature, though they didn't allow you to flip the car, just the camera. Anyway, I think pressing a button to flip 180 is an acceptable solution given the constraints of the controller.
  - 13y ago
n1kh1lp 13y ago
> "you control the cursor with only your thumb rather than your full hand gently set down on your desktop." exactly! This doesn't look very ergonomic. I can't imagine playing for hours with this controller.
lambda 13y ago
> I guess we'll never obtain a perfect alternative to the mouse. Is that really what they're going for? I don't think you should view the Steam Controller as the controller to end all controllers. From that point of view, I'm sure it will fail, and people will be disappointed. Instead, it's a controller that makes PC games playable from the couch. It won't be quite as good as a mouse and keyboard for games that were designed around those. It probably won't be quite as good as a standard console controller for games that were designed around those (you don't have the physical buttons to roll your fingers over to hit particular combos quickly). But it should make both types of games playable on a single controller. And once it's out, who knows. Maybe people will be able to design games specifically for this type of controller, and there will be some games that are best played on it.

by bbx 13y ago

Steko 13y ago

"I guess we'll never obtain a perfect alternative to the mouse" Because Valve's first effort doesn't completely replace a mouse? That seems a bit defeatist. "control the cursor with only your thumb rather than your full hand " Control with the thumb vs hand isn't the problem so much as that thumbs are not pointy like mouse lasers. Valve should look at adding a tiny fingertip digitizer. Of course they are still lacking proper text entry and sitting out motion input (i.e. the big innovation in the last 10 years), voice input (the big innovation over the last 5 years) and telepresence isn't going to be a core feature unlike all the competition. And of course they are going to be the most expensive option with the least bang for the buck.

keeperofdakeys 13y ago
I really don't see why they would want to add motion input. In most situations I've seen it used, it has been little more than a gimmick.
alan_cx 13y ago
"Because Valve's first effort doesn't completely replace a mouse? That seems a bit defeatist." The mouse was patented in 1947. Since then is has not been bettered. Valve are not the first to try.

ChuckMcM 13y ago

That was my thought as well. Basically the mouse has a huge range of motion and you can very aggressively move it and execute commands with buttons while moving. That doesn't work on track pads or presumably on this demo yet. Moves that would be one mouse stroke from left corner to right corner, become three or four "strokes" of the touch pad. And if you make the touch pad sensitive that this is a single stroke, then fine movement is compromised. I keep hoping for something like the nunchuck controller on the Wii where the nunchuk can keep track of its absolute coordinates and you then can do fine movement in the center of the box and large movement on the outer edges.

socillion 13y ago

There would be two disadvantages compared to traditional mouse-and-keyboard: 1) a low number of total possible bindings, and 2) a lower range of possible movements compared to a mouse. 1) is straightforward, if you don't have enough input buttons you're out of luck. A problem for games like SC2 and WoW. 2) this problem forces you to use acceleration for input, which is commonly accepted to ruin precision (reproducibility) because you lose the easy mapping between inches and pixels. I'll use Team Fortress 2 (an FPS) as an example for this. First, if 180 degrees takes more than 1 swipe, the controls are effectively unusable. The demonstration indicates this may be the case. You need to be able to flip 180 degrees to check your back, as well as make other large and fast movements like those required by rocket jumping. At the same time, you also need the ability to make very small aim adjustments. It's guaranteed that the trackpad will be weak somewhere along this variety of movements. It's unsurprising that it will be a poor replacement for mouse and keyboard, but existing controllers have demonstrated that people are fine with sacrificing resolution of controls for other advantages like relative simplicity and easily playing with friends.

TheEskimo 13y ago
In regards to the 180 degree spin, this demonstration shows exactly the opposite of what you say. At about 1:34 (elevator in portal 2) he performs a 180 with a single swipe from left to right.
optymizer 13y ago
Having played all StarCraft games so far, somewhat well, I can get by with maybe 8 buttons as Protoss: A, H, E, P, B, V, G, Z. Other races might need other buttons, but 8 is reasonable. If I remember correctly, the Steam Controller has 16 buttons. The other functionality is 1 click away and is (usually) not hat time sensitive, if you are not from Korea :-) obviously it's not for competitive players. Also, flipping the camera 180 degrees can be achieved with a button press. I think I remember Need For Speed having this feature, though they didn't allow you to flip the car, just the camera. Anyway, I think pressing a button to flip 180 is an acceptable solution given the constraints of the controller.
- 13y ago

n1kh1lp 13y ago

> "you control the cursor with only your thumb rather than your full hand gently set down on your desktop." exactly! This doesn't look very ergonomic. I can't imagine playing for hours with this controller.

lambda 13y ago

> I guess we'll never obtain a perfect alternative to the mouse. Is that really what they're going for? I don't think you should view the Steam Controller as the controller to end all controllers. From that point of view, I'm sure it will fail, and people will be disappointed. Instead, it's a controller that makes PC games playable from the couch. It won't be quite as good as a mouse and keyboard for games that were designed around those. It probably won't be quite as good as a standard console controller for games that were designed around those (you don't have the physical buttons to roll your fingers over to hit particular combos quickly). But it should make both types of games playable on a single controller. And once it's out, who knows. Maybe people will be able to design games specifically for this type of controller, and there will be some games that are best played on it.