4 ms·

I'm a big supporter of the GBI (see my comment history), and I think developed countries are going to all need to adopt it at some point for a variety of reason

I'm a big supporter of the GBI (see my comment history), and I think developed countries are going to all need to adopt it at some point for a variety of reasons. Reading this and a few other related articles on the Swiss experiment, I couldn't find information about the following, which I consider pre-requisites for a GBI system to be effective: - Union strikes for non-safety related issues have to be made illegal. You don't get to strike for higher wages when there's a GBI. - Hire/fire policies need to be made completely at-will, with pretty much no exceptions. - The minimum wage has to be eliminated (generally won't matter, since the GBI will bring the wage of "bad jobs" up, rather than down.) - The rest of the welfare system will likely need to be largely dismantled. The person answering the questions in the article seemed to conflate "public schooling" with welfare, which should be decoupled; things like schooling, health care, etc. should not be touched (and should not be considered welfare - they are regular public goods.) If the Swiss have things like TANF, Social Security, SNAP, WIC, etc. - those will probably need to go. - Opt out. Any person who doesn't want to take the money (because they already have plenty) should be able to refuse it. I'm glad to see a country starting to experiment with this, though. It's the only way forward in a world where the need for human labor is going down every day.

dragonwriter 13y ago
> Opt out. Any person who doesn't want to take the money (because they already have plenty) should be able to refuse it. Why is this necessary or useful? It adds administrative complexity to the system and doesn't serve any apparent useful purpose.
mikeash 13y ago
> - Union strikes for non-safety related issues have to be made illegal. You don't get to strike for higher wages when there's a GBI. >- Hire/fire policies need to be made completely at-will, with pretty much no exceptions. So employers should have all power, and employees should have none? Why should employers have the right to fire at will, but employees should not have the right to stop working at will?
- mason240 13y ago
  GBI would give employees would have a huge amount of leverage in that they can just quit work whenever they without financial consequences.
  - mikeash 13y ago
    In exchange for a GBI, we must enslave anyone who decides to work? I really don't get it. Yes, they can just quit their job and still survive. (Although it is not "without financial consequences.") That is the point. I don't see how that justifies making it illegal to leave your job whenever you want to.
    - ahomescu1 13y ago
      I think GP was arguing that both employers and employees should be able end employment at will. Strikes are something completely different, they're essentially a way for employees to hold their companies hostage to get more money (have you noticed how few strikes are based around "give us more money or we quit"?)
      - mikeash 13y ago
        How are strikes different in any way? Strikes are when people stop working as a way to negotiate. If you're going to prevent them, then you're going to force people to work when they don't want to.
        ahomescu1 13y ago
        Because those people aren't saying "pay us more or we quit", they're saying "pay us more or we'll stop you from functioning". In many cases where people strike, the employer could quickly replace them if they quit (maybe not if they all quit, but they're easily replaceable individually).
        mikeash 13y ago
chli 13y ago
Swiss citizen here... A few answers : - Strikes are mostly illegal in Switzerland and are very rare - Apart from a standard 3 months notice it's easy to lay off people in Switzerland (unless they are pregnant or sick) - There are no standard minimal wage but there have been discussion recently of introducing one - We do have quite a few "program" in our welfare system a GBI would simplify a lot of things - There have been no mention of a possibility to opt-out
- Futurebot 13y ago
  Thanks chli. It sounds like Switzerland is in great shape for this, then. I'm really rooting for their success here; it's hard to overstate how important successful examples of these policies are going to be for the future of our societies.

dragonwriter 13y ago

> Opt out. Any person who doesn't want to take the money (because they already have plenty) should be able to refuse it. Why is this necessary or useful? It adds administrative complexity to the system and doesn't serve any apparent useful purpose.

mikeash 13y ago

> - Union strikes for non-safety related issues have to be made illegal. You don't get to strike for higher wages when there's a GBI. >- Hire/fire policies need to be made completely at-will, with pretty much no exceptions. So employers should have all power, and employees should have none? Why should employers have the right to fire at will, but employees should not have the right to stop working at will?

mason240 13y ago
GBI would give employees would have a huge amount of leverage in that they can just quit work whenever they without financial consequences.
- mikeash 13y ago
  In exchange for a GBI, we must enslave anyone who decides to work? I really don't get it. Yes, they can just quit their job and still survive. (Although it is not "without financial consequences.") That is the point. I don't see how that justifies making it illegal to leave your job whenever you want to.
  - ahomescu1 13y ago
    I think GP was arguing that both employers and employees should be able end employment at will. Strikes are something completely different, they're essentially a way for employees to hold their companies hostage to get more money (have you noticed how few strikes are based around "give us more money or we quit"?)
    - mikeash 13y ago
      How are strikes different in any way? Strikes are when people stop working as a way to negotiate. If you're going to prevent them, then you're going to force people to work when they don't want to.
      - ahomescu1 13y ago
        Because those people aren't saying "pay us more or we quit", they're saying "pay us more or we'll stop you from functioning". In many cases where people strike, the employer could quickly replace them if they quit (maybe not if they all quit, but they're easily replaceable individually).
        mikeash 13y ago

chli 13y ago

Swiss citizen here... A few answers : - Strikes are mostly illegal in Switzerland and are very rare - Apart from a standard 3 months notice it's easy to lay off people in Switzerland (unless they are pregnant or sick) - There are no standard minimal wage but there have been discussion recently of introducing one - We do have quite a few "program" in our welfare system a GBI would simplify a lot of things - There have been no mention of a possibility to opt-out

Futurebot 13y ago
Thanks chli. It sounds like Switzerland is in great shape for this, then. I'm really rooting for their success here; it's hard to overstate how important successful examples of these policies are going to be for the future of our societies.