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Schneier is kind of disappointing more and more... Be cautious of this advice dear readers. " (The ultra-paranoid way to do this is to buy two identical compu

by antocv 13y ago

Schneier is kind of disappointing more and more... Be cautious of this advice dear readers. " (The ultra-paranoid way to do this is to buy two identical computers, configure one using the above method, upload the results to a cloud-based anti-virus checker, and transfer the results of that to the air gap machine using a one-way process.)" No, the ultra paranoid would buy two computers, perform install 1 from friend 1s internet connection, downloading everything keeping a copy and check-sums, then perform install 2 on a friend of a friends connection, then compare the results of both the downloaded check-sums and the installation. (For certain flavors of Linux it should be the same). There is no point in uploading to a cloud-anti-virus checker if the NSA is after you, its not like they are going to use Slammer or some other known virus against you. Jesus christ, and he is using Windows !? WTF. He is going against his own advice - to use public/free software as often as possible. For the step of moving files between air-gapped computer, he suggests using USB sticks. He forgot to say that you must encrypt the entire usb-stick as well, You dont write a file-system to it! Only an encrypted blob. As "viruses" can be transferred on the NTFS he is probably using. Even Linux fs had a vulnerability - when the kernel tried to mount the fs it would privilege escalate to root and run code - code that can be hidden in the NTFS alternate (hidden) streams. EDIT: For the NSA-agent wishing to leak, a good idea is too look into HaikuOS, MenuetOS etc and use those instead of GNU/Linux, or ArchHurd. Something very rare, something unexpected. Modify the installation from the default as much as you can. Hm, we should make an Ask HN thread - what is the best ingenious methods for current NSA employees to leak again, now that they have to share a computer with a partner?

commandar 13y ago
>For the NSA-agent wishing to leak, a good idea is too look into HaikuOS, MenuetOS etc and use those instead of GNU/Linux, or ArchHurd. Something very rare, something unexpected. Is that really the best idea, though? One of the things Linux has going for it is a couple of decades worth of public scrutiny and hardening.
- elq 13y ago
  The suggestion is that hardening is less valuable than obscurity. As long as your choice is secret and uncommon you'll probably be safer than a well known hardened OS.
  - antocv 13y ago
    And thats why Schneier probably isnt using Windows but its a diversion. Takes tinfoil hat off.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
  - DanBC 13y ago
    The attackers are NSA. It is stupid to think that obscuring the OS would delay them by any more than a couple of hours at best.
    - MichaelGG 13y ago
      On an air-gapped machine? How would they determine the OS, so long you're careful about how the files you export are written? The article rules out TEMPEST and physical attacks.
    - duaneb 13y ago
      How would they know if it's not on the internet?
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
- gaius 13y ago
  If Intel have put a backdoor in then the OS does not matter.
clarry 13y ago
He also claims that it's impossible to avoid connecting to the Internet. Which is of course not true; there's no reason he couldn't just boot an OS installer (or the entire OS, like Tails which he mentions) from an optical disc, or another media. Which is precisely what he will do unless he thinks it's a good idea to boot and connect the pre-installed, unpatched, crapware-loaded copy of Windows...
joosters 13y ago
What's wrong with using Windows for this? If the machine is air-gapped, you could run as antiquated or insecure system as you like. Windows seems perfectly practical and it's easy to obtain a DVD install for it. The critical thing is to ensure you don't ever transfer nasty stuff to the machine. For the true paranoid, this means you are facing potential NSA zero-day vulnerabilities and such, so you could have the most patched version of Linux or Windows and still be at risk. Now, it still makes sense to start with a good system, but the weakness here, whatever your OS, is the trustworthiness of the data you transfer to it on USB.
- sneak 13y ago
  An air gap is just one layer of security. Not knowing if there are code exec backdoors, intentional or otherwise, in your kernel: a whole different ballgame. Schneier should know better.
  - anologwintermut 13y ago
    or he knows that NSA can own both Windows and Linux. Which is probably true. At which point, he needs to 1) know his system is not yet owned and 2) that the encryption system he uses works and isn't backdoored. So about his only plausibly concern is if Truecrypt uses the Window's entropy pool switched to use say EC_DAUL_DRBG. That is a concern, but it's one with Truecrypt and can be checked. This is assuming that even for the NSA, having Window's identify and modify the truecrypt binary is impossible. Realistically, if you are worrying about that, you should worry about Intel chips doing the same thing. At which point, you're screwed no matter what OS you use.
    - larrys 13y ago
      Would add to this that he is in a sense a high value target by the fact that he is well known and has an agenda which others may not approve of. What might not be practical or possible with "anyone" becomes "possible" with a high value target. [1] I'm remembering back to OJ Simpson case back in the early 90's. The police did things to try to pin the crime on him (searching trashdumps) that they simply don't do or don't have the resources to do in ordinary cases. (They found nothing but they tried and went to an extraordinary effort to try and find some evidence against OJ.) [1] I'm wondering for example where physically the air gapped computer is kept and the physical security and/or alarms around that computer.
Lagged2Death 13y ago
No, the ultra paranoid would buy two computers... The ultra-ultra paranoid might use their popular and widely read blog - a blog which is almost certainly read by more than one or two people at the NSA - to post an enormous boat-load of misdirection that is nevertheless also helpful advice for people who are actually stuck attempting to secure Windows computers. Advice that happens to highlight what a nigh-impossible task that really is. (TEN rules? Good luck.) I can't think of any reason for someone in Schneier's position to publicize his actual security arrangements at this time. Then again, maybe he feels he has a duty, as a security expert, to use and thereby remain familiar with the most popular systems around.
- dublinben 13y ago
  >Then again, maybe he feels he has a duty, as a security expert, to use and thereby remain familiar with the most popular systems around. I think this is the case for security experts like Schneier and Krebs. Most of the threats they're interested in affect Windows. Most of their readers run Windows. They would be a less useful resource if their first recommendation was always "ditch Windows" even if that's accurate.
  - joe_the_user 13y ago
    Maybe he needs to use Windows but whether or not his single air-gap-ed computer runs Windows or not isn't going to determine whether he's going to be running Windows in general. I don't know how maintaining a full off-Internet computer isn't much more extreme than switching OSes. If he is recommended an off-Internet machine, it seems clear he'd want to recommend the hard steps as well as the easy steps. I mean, he says he's running open office so Linux should be able to work great for him.
    - NormaHHopson 13y ago
      my friend's step-sister makes $84/hr on the computer. She has been laid off for nine months but last month her check was $21144 just working on the computer for a few hours. Continue Reading ===================================================http://www.Works23.Com http://www.Works23.Com
pdonis 13y ago
Jesus christ, and he is using Windows !? WTF. Exactly. He's not using any applications that won't run on Linux (or one of the BSDs, or even OS X for that matter).
B-Con 13y ago
> and he is using Windows !? WTF. He is going against his own advice - to use public/free software as often as possible. It is weird, but I saw it coming. He has always used Windows. Back early 2000s it was because that was what his company was standardized on, and that was to make things simplest software distribution-wise. They did network security solutions (consulting-style, IIRC) and it may have been it was easiest to match their clients. I take it he hasn't bothered to migrate since then. I'm curious to know which version of Windows, but I kind of assume it will be 7. XP was too security-poor, Win8 is too new. Security people who use Windows tend to lag major revs by a little (like most software releases). For the record, the irony here isn't that a security guy is using Windows, it's that he's using Windows for security as he reports on deliberately backdoored commercial software.
ateeqs 13y ago
Actually, the "ultra paranoid" would live in a cave without computers. You didn't really explain what was wrong with using Windows. Don't be like, "Jesus christ, and he is using Windows !? WTF." without explaining why using Windows is insecure, and how the other OSes you claim will be any better. Don't think that because you're not using Windows you are secure. If a well-funded entity wants what you have, they will get it. Schneier, IMHO, is paranoid for no reason. I'd lay a wager that the US government cares very little about him or his air-gapped systems (lol). He just wants to be heard.
- code_duck 13y ago
  I've been wondering why the government is supposedly so interested in what Schneier is doing.
  - summerdown2 13y ago
    Because he's working with the Guardian, helping them interpret the Snowden documents. http://www.theguardian.com/profile/bruceschneier http://www.theguardian.com/profile/bruceschneier http://www.technologyreview.com/news/519336/bruce-schneier-nsa-spying-is-making-us-less-safe/ http://www.technologyreview.com/news/519336/bruce-schneier-n...
    - code_duck 13y ago
      I see. I'm going to have to assume that this article is complete misdirection in that case. He probably uses Linux on a 486 from Kazakhstan.
  - ateeqs 13y ago
    I'm not really sure the government is interested. But Schneier seems to think they are though.
- frenger 13y ago
  I take it you use Windows.. Windows is known to be deliberately backdoored. Schneier has publicly stated he's got the Snowden documents, and has been reporting on them for the Guardian. I can't think of a better need for an airgapped machine. On what planet would he not be being heavily surveiled? Next you'll be saying Snowden is a fantasist too.
stordoff 13y ago
> Jesus christ, and he is using Windows !? WTF. He is going against his own advice - to use public/free software as often as possible. I can think of a few reasons why that might be reasonable, but I agree that the advise could be better. 1. He IS using Linux/BSD/similar, but has changed the article to Windows to be useful to Windows users and/or add some obscurity to his setup. 2. More familiar with Windows security practices, so more confident in overall security by using Windows (not that really helps with 0days or NSA backdoors though) 3. He has NSA docs that show Linux is compromised in some way and Windows isn't (seems unlikely TBH). That said, it does seem very odd to stick with Windows if you feel it necessary to air-gap the machine.
jodrellblank 13y ago
No, the ultra paranoid would buy two computers, perform install 1 from friend 1s internet connection, downloading everything keeping a copy and check-sums, then perform install 2 on a friend of a friends connection, then compare the results of both the downloaded check-sums and the installation. (For certain flavors of Linux it should be the same). Because the NSA would have no idea who your friends are, and wouldn't dream of monitoring their internet connections. He forgot to say that you must encrypt the entire usb-stick as well Rule-10 says to consider encrypting everything you transfer. (How do you "write an encrypted blob" to a USB disk without using a filesystem, on a normal computer that you aren't writing your own fake-filsystem driver on, than you can also read on an internet connected computer, e.g. one at your friend's house?).
- Sami_Lehtinen 13y ago
  What makes you think you need a file system or partition table for a block device? Please tell me, because I know, you don't need any.
  - jodrellblank 13y ago
    I don't think you need a filesystem of partition table to put data on a block device. I think you need a filesystem if you are in the world of Bruce Schneier's article, using Windows on both sides, writing at the level where "don't connect your air-gap computer to the internet" is worth saying. Of course you can C-x M-c M-butterfly[1] this scenario, increasing impracticality more than security at every step, as far as you find enjoyable. [1] http://xkcd.com/378/ http://xkcd.com/378/

by antocv 13y ago

commandar 13y ago

>For the NSA-agent wishing to leak, a good idea is too look into HaikuOS, MenuetOS etc and use those instead of GNU/Linux, or ArchHurd. Something very rare, something unexpected. Is that really the best idea, though? One of the things Linux has going for it is a couple of decades worth of public scrutiny and hardening.

elq 13y ago
The suggestion is that hardening is less valuable than obscurity. As long as your choice is secret and uncommon you'll probably be safer than a well known hardened OS.
- antocv 13y ago
  And thats why Schneier probably isnt using Windows but its a diversion. Takes tinfoil hat off.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
- DanBC 13y ago
  The attackers are NSA. It is stupid to think that obscuring the OS would delay them by any more than a couple of hours at best.
  - MichaelGG 13y ago
    On an air-gapped machine? How would they determine the OS, so long you're careful about how the files you export are written? The article rules out TEMPEST and physical attacks.
  - duaneb 13y ago
    How would they know if it's not on the internet?
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
gaius 13y ago
If Intel have put a backdoor in then the OS does not matter.

clarry 13y ago

He also claims that it's impossible to avoid connecting to the Internet. Which is of course not true; there's no reason he couldn't just boot an OS installer (or the entire OS, like Tails which he mentions) from an optical disc, or another media. Which is precisely what he will do unless he thinks it's a good idea to boot and connect the pre-installed, unpatched, crapware-loaded copy of Windows...

joosters 13y ago

What's wrong with using Windows for this? If the machine is air-gapped, you could run as antiquated or insecure system as you like. Windows seems perfectly practical and it's easy to obtain a DVD install for it. The critical thing is to ensure you don't ever transfer nasty stuff to the machine. For the true paranoid, this means you are facing potential NSA zero-day vulnerabilities and such, so you could have the most patched version of Linux or Windows and still be at risk. Now, it still makes sense to start with a good system, but the weakness here, whatever your OS, is the trustworthiness of the data you transfer to it on USB.

sneak 13y ago
An air gap is just one layer of security. Not knowing if there are code exec backdoors, intentional or otherwise, in your kernel: a whole different ballgame. Schneier should know better.
- anologwintermut 13y ago
  or he knows that NSA can own both Windows and Linux. Which is probably true. At which point, he needs to 1) know his system is not yet owned and 2) that the encryption system he uses works and isn't backdoored. So about his only plausibly concern is if Truecrypt uses the Window's entropy pool switched to use say EC_DAUL_DRBG. That is a concern, but it's one with Truecrypt and can be checked. This is assuming that even for the NSA, having Window's identify and modify the truecrypt binary is impossible. Realistically, if you are worrying about that, you should worry about Intel chips doing the same thing. At which point, you're screwed no matter what OS you use.
  - larrys 13y ago
    Would add to this that he is in a sense a high value target by the fact that he is well known and has an agenda which others may not approve of. What might not be practical or possible with "anyone" becomes "possible" with a high value target. [1] I'm remembering back to OJ Simpson case back in the early 90's. The police did things to try to pin the crime on him (searching trashdumps) that they simply don't do or don't have the resources to do in ordinary cases. (They found nothing but they tried and went to an extraordinary effort to try and find some evidence against OJ.) [1] I'm wondering for example where physically the air gapped computer is kept and the physical security and/or alarms around that computer.

Lagged2Death 13y ago

No, the ultra paranoid would buy two computers... The ultra-ultra paranoid might use their popular and widely read blog - a blog which is almost certainly read by more than one or two people at the NSA - to post an enormous boat-load of misdirection that is nevertheless also helpful advice for people who are actually stuck attempting to secure Windows computers. Advice that happens to highlight what a nigh-impossible task that really is. (TEN rules? Good luck.) I can't think of any reason for someone in Schneier's position to publicize his actual security arrangements at this time. Then again, maybe he feels he has a duty, as a security expert, to use and thereby remain familiar with the most popular systems around.

dublinben 13y ago
>Then again, maybe he feels he has a duty, as a security expert, to use and thereby remain familiar with the most popular systems around. I think this is the case for security experts like Schneier and Krebs. Most of the threats they're interested in affect Windows. Most of their readers run Windows. They would be a less useful resource if their first recommendation was always "ditch Windows" even if that's accurate.
- joe_the_user 13y ago
  Maybe he needs to use Windows but whether or not his single air-gap-ed computer runs Windows or not isn't going to determine whether he's going to be running Windows in general. I don't know how maintaining a full off-Internet computer isn't much more extreme than switching OSes. If he is recommended an off-Internet machine, it seems clear he'd want to recommend the hard steps as well as the easy steps. I mean, he says he's running open office so Linux should be able to work great for him.
  - NormaHHopson 13y ago
    my friend's step-sister makes $84/hr on the computer. She has been laid off for nine months but last month her check was $21144 just working on the computer for a few hours. Continue Reading ===================================================http://www.Works23.Com http://www.Works23.Com

pdonis 13y ago

Jesus christ, and he is using Windows !? WTF. Exactly. He's not using any applications that won't run on Linux (or one of the BSDs, or even OS X for that matter).

B-Con 13y ago

> and he is using Windows !? WTF. He is going against his own advice - to use public/free software as often as possible. It is weird, but I saw it coming. He has always used Windows. Back early 2000s it was because that was what his company was standardized on, and that was to make things simplest software distribution-wise. They did network security solutions (consulting-style, IIRC) and it may have been it was easiest to match their clients. I take it he hasn't bothered to migrate since then. I'm curious to know which version of Windows, but I kind of assume it will be 7. XP was too security-poor, Win8 is too new. Security people who use Windows tend to lag major revs by a little (like most software releases). For the record, the irony here isn't that a security guy is using Windows, it's that he's using Windows for security as he reports on deliberately backdoored commercial software.

ateeqs 13y ago

Actually, the "ultra paranoid" would live in a cave without computers. You didn't really explain what was wrong with using Windows. Don't be like, "Jesus christ, and he is using Windows !? WTF." without explaining why using Windows is insecure, and how the other OSes you claim will be any better. Don't think that because you're not using Windows you are secure. If a well-funded entity wants what you have, they will get it. Schneier, IMHO, is paranoid for no reason. I'd lay a wager that the US government cares very little about him or his air-gapped systems (lol). He just wants to be heard.

code_duck 13y ago
I've been wondering why the government is supposedly so interested in what Schneier is doing.
- summerdown2 13y ago
  Because he's working with the Guardian, helping them interpret the Snowden documents. http://www.theguardian.com/profile/bruceschneier http://www.theguardian.com/profile/bruceschneier http://www.technologyreview.com/news/519336/bruce-schneier-nsa-spying-is-making-us-less-safe/ http://www.technologyreview.com/news/519336/bruce-schneier-n...
  - code_duck 13y ago
    I see. I'm going to have to assume that this article is complete misdirection in that case. He probably uses Linux on a 486 from Kazakhstan.
- ateeqs 13y ago
  I'm not really sure the government is interested. But Schneier seems to think they are though.
frenger 13y ago
I take it you use Windows.. Windows is known to be deliberately backdoored. Schneier has publicly stated he's got the Snowden documents, and has been reporting on them for the Guardian. I can't think of a better need for an airgapped machine. On what planet would he not be being heavily surveiled? Next you'll be saying Snowden is a fantasist too.

stordoff 13y ago

> Jesus christ, and he is using Windows !? WTF. He is going against his own advice - to use public/free software as often as possible. I can think of a few reasons why that might be reasonable, but I agree that the advise could be better. 1. He IS using Linux/BSD/similar, but has changed the article to Windows to be useful to Windows users and/or add some obscurity to his setup. 2. More familiar with Windows security practices, so more confident in overall security by using Windows (not that really helps with 0days or NSA backdoors though) 3. He has NSA docs that show Linux is compromised in some way and Windows isn't (seems unlikely TBH). That said, it does seem very odd to stick with Windows if you feel it necessary to air-gap the machine.

jodrellblank 13y ago

No, the ultra paranoid would buy two computers, perform install 1 from friend 1s internet connection, downloading everything keeping a copy and check-sums, then perform install 2 on a friend of a friends connection, then compare the results of both the downloaded check-sums and the installation. (For certain flavors of Linux it should be the same). Because the NSA would have no idea who your friends are, and wouldn't dream of monitoring their internet connections. He forgot to say that you must encrypt the entire usb-stick as well Rule-10 says to consider encrypting everything you transfer. (How do you "write an encrypted blob" to a USB disk without using a filesystem, on a normal computer that you aren't writing your own fake-filsystem driver on, than you can also read on an internet connected computer, e.g. one at your friend's house?).

Sami_Lehtinen 13y ago
What makes you think you need a file system or partition table for a block device? Please tell me, because I know, you don't need any.
- jodrellblank 13y ago
  I don't think you need a filesystem of partition table to put data on a block device. I think you need a filesystem if you are in the world of Bruce Schneier's article, using Windows on both sides, writing at the level where "don't connect your air-gap computer to the internet" is worth saying. Of course you can C-x M-c M-butterfly[1] this scenario, increasing impracticality more than security at every step, as far as you find enjoyable. [1] http://xkcd.com/378/ http://xkcd.com/378/