9 ms·
Airbnb refuses to hand over users' data
- debacle 13y agoThey sort of have to - if they hand over user data, it will be a huge blow to their current and future business.
- camus 13y agoYeah,well some startups dont have a legit business model at first place. These laws may be bad but you wont change them by being "disruptive".
- thejulielogan 13y agoActually, legally, they sort of have to give up the data. They are taking a risk not handing over the data, thankfully it's the right risk to take. The law is malleable for a reason; laws often become outdated. Business wise they should to do this, yes, but that still doesn't mean it's an easy "they sort of have to" situation.
- smackfu 13y ago>The law is malleable for a reason; laws often become outdated. The law in question was pretty much created to stop Airbnb-style short-term rentals.
- thejulielogan 13y agovery quickly became outdated, then ;)
- debacle 13y agoOh, I definitely think that they'll have to give up the data eventually, but considering that their business model is at stake, they have to at least try to hold out. I'm not a proponent of AirBnB's business model, but I can understand their attempt a refusal.
- thejulielogan 13y agoThe fight is more important than the outcome, in some ways. It will be interesting to see how they play the PR/legal/international angles to get at least decent results in NY.
- potatolicious 13y agoIs there anything preventing the AG from subpoenaing strictly the records of people who actually fit the bill of what they're looking for? According to the WSJ[1] the investigation is looking strictly at "people who might be trying to skirt New York's laws by renting out multiple units or obtaining their primary residence through Airbnb for extended periods" It seems like this can be accomplished without a whole-hog dump of every NYC-area landlord. Why not have AirBnb dump this data, with a neutral third party auditing? One thing that doesn't smell right though: > "Airbnb has about 15,000 hosts—or people who share their living space—spread out among New York City's five boroughs, with 87% of them renting out the homes that they live in." I call shenanigans on this. I've done searches throughout NYC as a curiosity exercise last time this topic came up. "Whole apartment" listings vastly outnumber "room in apartment" or "shared room" listings. The notion that the vast majority of Airbnb landlords are present, or renting out parts of their existing homes, does not seem to bear out in reality. [1] http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304441404579121864021592746.html http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405270230444140457912...
- vampirechicken 13y agoYes, but AirBnB has a database. All of the violators are just an SQL query away from being discovered. I wonder if the AG will threaten AirBnB with abetting crime of conspiracy, or some other BS in order to coerce complince....
- Shivetya 13y agoWhy would it be BS? Really, there are laws and far too many startups gloss right over them and then all shocked and such that it applies to them. Then they double down their idiocy by trying to gen up support from people equally ignorant of the law or just anti-government in general. So, yeah, court order, the charge will be with tax evasion if they really want to get rough.
- adventured 13y agoThe laws in this case exist solely to enrich very entrenched interests, specifically hotels that legally bribe (aka lobby) politicians to regulate their little part of the world to keep competition out. Nothing noble about that.
- JumpCrisscross 13y agoAirBnB appears to have navigated New York politics in a naive and inexperienced manner. Uber made a similar mistake early on, but graduated to a more sophisticated approach which involved working with local regulations as opposed to trying to bulldoze through them. Announcing that they are refusing to comply with a New York State AG's subpoena, versus more subtly seeking a backdoor face-saving solution, continues AirBnB's streak. An acquaintance, living in a building whose management was very tolerant of the short-term rental of its units, recently saw a double-digit rent increase. The owner believed, probably correctly, that he was better off leasing his apartment to a series of short-term stayers versus a long-term tenant. Ignoring rental and regulatory volatility, this makes sense. Point is, the gripes are real. They are also the kinds of social disagreements politics is designed to deal with. Blowing past that will probably backfire, particularly in New York.
- qwerta 13y agoNew York state has all rights to protects its interest. But they should do it case by case, not by spamming everyone who happened to be on some list.
- jsnk 13y agoIt's worth noting that what NY state government does with AirBnB is not necessarily for some people of NY state.
- JumpCrisscross 13y agoAgree completely. But publicly announcing you're going to ignore the state AG amidst (a) claims by Albany that AirBnB is ignoring prior agreements and (b) an election season bringing in more populist, pro-renter candidates is bold in the wrong way.
- prodigal_erik 13y agoAirBnB are themselves guilty of spamming, so their willing customers don't merit this kind of consideration.
- bsullivan01 13y ago
- mfieldhouse 13y agoWhat benefit does having this law give? 'It also prohibits residents of certain buildings from renting their accommodations for under 30 days'
- judk 13y agoProvides stability to the residential community, preventing disruption from transients not invested in the social fabric of the community, who feel free to be a nuisance.
- chez17 13y agoThat's the PR response. While there is truth to it, surely there is an element of entrenched industries using their money and power to protect themselves.
- smackfu 13y agoThe other side of it is the "entrenched industries" saying "wait, why do we have to meet the building codes for hotels if these Airbnb people don't?"
- prodigal_erik 13y agoWhy do hotels have different building codes? If the room I'm sleeping in catches fire and collapses, no legal arrangement with the landlord is going to save me.
- Mikeb85 13y agoAll types of buildings have different building codes. Apartment buildings may have different codes depending on their height (you can't build a 10 story wooden building for instance), there's codes which regulate exits, access, max occupancy, etc... Single family homes have different code to follow because the expectation is that only 1 family will be living in it, versus an office tower or hotel with thousands... A relevant example - not every basement is suitable as a living suite, but many are rented out anyway, which is against the law (there are certain codes which much be followed to ensure a rental suite is legal). This would apply to AirBnB as well. Traditional bed and breakfast places have rules to follow as well, business regulations, building code, etc...
- 27182818284 13y agoIt is kind of mission critical that they don't, correct? I have stayed in one lady's place who even mentioned to us that it wasn't exactly kosher with the landlord, but she was going out of town for a conference anyway and would be gone for the week. I see it as mission critical because it would be too easy for landlords to take that information and use it against people.
- simias 13y agoDo you mean that airbnb giving this info to the attorney general would make it public?
- colmvp 13y ago"I see it as mission critical because it would be too easy for landlords to take that information and use it against people." Well they could've done themselves a favor by not illegally subletting their rental. I don't mind the concept of Airbnb but it's laughable that proponents glaze over the fact that rental agreements often prohibit subletting yet Airbnb users still rent their space anyway.
- apaprocki 13y agoAs someone on the condo board of a building, I can guarantee you that we don't need any data dump to locate people illegally renting out units in our building. We regularly look on AirBnB and VRBO for units within our building that are easily identifiable through the photographs in the listing and fine anyone in violation of the condo rules.
- gojomo 13y agoOther than the fact that such rentals are against the rules (malum prohibitum), has your condo board seen actual damages from such website-mediated-rentals, making the practice wrong in-and-of-itself (malum in se)? The rules probably date back to when such arrangments were often quite sketchy and informal, whereas the Airbnb era adds traceable payments/stay-records, sticky reputations linked to real-world identities, and a commercial-entity's own "guarantee" against harms. So would the board consider waiving those rules under certain situations? It seems the option to rent out property in some cases will protect or improve the property's value... which I presume is one of the major goals of the condo board.
- joering2 13y agoSeems like Airbnb wants to wrestle with the long arm of the government. This will be an interesting to watch, although the saying goes: you don't wrestle with a pig. You will get dirt and the big likes it. And Feds will most likely love to get any reason to reopen the FBI probe into Nathan's case. http://gawker.com/5853754/the-seedy-spammy-past-of-airbnbs-co+founder http://gawker.com/5853754/the-seedy-spammy-past-of-airbnbs-c...
- smackfu 13y ago> It also prohibits residents of certain buildings from renting their accommodations for under 30 days. That is not how I would summarize the law. It prohibits residents of most buildings from renting for under 30 days. The exclusions are mainly around existing buildings that would violate the law, without Airbnb style rentals, namely university-owned buildings that are used for short-term rentals in the summer and older buildings that are apartment/hotel mixes.
- antr 13y agoIf it were Goldman Sachs refusing to hand over customer data all hell would break loose.
- JackFr 13y agoIf Elliot Spitzer were still the AG, RICO would have been invoked already and they AirBnB officers would be looking at jail time. Some violations of the Multiple Dwelling Law are misdemeanors while others are civil penalties. But in so far as NYC is concerned, AirBnB is facilitating and profiting from illegal acts.
- apaprocki 13y agoLots of people immediately jump to the "hotel industry protection" line of reasoning here. There's a pretty good write-up from 2010 covering common myths and reasons for wanting short-term rental protection in a place like NYC. I recommend everyone read this if this topic interests you: "What New York State's Illegal Hotels Law Means for Travelers" http://www.frommers.com/articles/6912.html http://www.frommers.com/articles/6912.html
- awwstn 13y agoThe effective approach that has let Uber thrive in battles like this is to leverage thier community. Everywhere you look at the Uber debate, the story is told as members of the community standing up to the old guard – but the airbnb story right now feels like an insurgent brand standing up to the authorities. With Uber, the story always resembles this: http://techcrunch.com/2012/07/10/dc-city-council-shelves-uber-amendment-against-discounted-private-cars-road-looking-clearer-for-uberx/ http://techcrunch.com/2012/07/10/dc-city-council-shelves-ube...
- MAGZine 13y agoI think this is the only way to go about getting change. If you just comply from square one, officials preceive no problem. If you want change, you need to make people realize that there is a problem with the current system... and ignoring the laws, and then working to get them changed after the problem has been realized (a la Uber) seems to be a lot more effective. You can't get people excited to change something they don't know/care about!
- Mikeb85 13y agoI don't see why this is surprising. When you rent out a space there are laws designed to protect the renter, and many leases have clauses prohibiting subletting. Odds are many of these laws/contracts are being broken, so what do you expect? Because it's an internet start-up you're allowed to break the law?
- auctiontheory 13y agoBecause it's an internet start-up you're allowed to break the law? Well yes, that's what they're saying. "Internet is different" is the very principle Amazon invoked to not collect sales tax for years. (I'm not saying I agree.)
- res0nat0r 13y agoWell at the time wasn't any law stating that Amazon had to collect sales tax where it didn't have a physical presence, that was up for debate. Unlike the laws that AirBnB are currently ignoring, that matter is already settled.
- Pxtl 13y ago> "Internet is different" is the very principle Amazon invoked to not collect sales tax for years Well, to be fair, in Amazon's case it legally was different.
- dragonwriter 13y ago> "Internet is different" is the very principle Amazon invoked to not collect sales tax for years. No, its not; Amazon sought to have legal rulings that had been applied to remote selling (by mail and telephone order) applied to remote selling by internet in exactly the same way that they had been applied to other means of remote selling. It was exactly the opposite of "Internet is different."
- Nutella4 13y agoAmazon claimed it had no physical presence in California so that they would fall under the existing laws. That's not true, though. Lots of Amazon employees work in California. They got very creative with the definition of "Amazon" and "employee" to make the claim.
- not_that_noob 13y agoThe reason Uber can work with the government is that they are taking on the taxi cartel on behalf of city residents. They are therefore aligned with voters, who the pols care about. AirBnB otoh is aligned with a small minority of owners against the larger number of renters pissed off that their already high rents are exploding. The pols are taking these actions because voters are upset. AirBnB are on the wrong side of the divide. This may thus end badly for them in NY. Other cities will copy NY, and so this is a fundamental challenge to their core value prop.
- mrcactu5 13y ago225,000 New Yorkers have signed up to Airbnb. WHAT?? According to Wikipedia New York has 3,021,588 households. 7% of New York households are certainly livable but not good enough to rent out. I would like to side with Chesky if he gives up his data and New Yorkers spruce of their apartments...
- ye 13y ago> 7% of New York households are certainly livable but not good enough to rent out. That statement makes no sense. Every single household can be rented out, it's only a question of price.
- mrcactu5 13y agofine... every roach-infested apartment can be rented out regardless of whether it has running hot water or heat in the winter time, air conditioning etc. indeed there is a sucker born every minute.
- gojomo 13y agoTime for BitcoinBnb? The Silk Roadhouse?
- chrislaco 13y agoFine. Change this to a "membership fee" for your private club and walk away.
- davidf18 13y agoAs a long-term occupant of Manhattan, I (and others) believe that AirBnB ignores the feelings of those of us that want safety and security in our apartment buildings and that we certainly do not want strangers living there. I'm only sorry that the AG didn't go after AirBnB earlier.
- throwit1979 13y agoUm. What possible jurisdiction can New York State have over a California company with no offices in New York? Probably best to tell this AG to go piss up a rope privately and dispense with useless press releases like this.