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>fat shaming is bad, and stupid No, it's not. Obesity is unhealthy and usually the result of bad habits. All the ex-fatties I know think this "fat acceptance"

>fat shaming is bad, and stupid No, it's not. Obesity is unhealthy and usually the result of bad habits. All the ex-fatties I know think this "fat acceptance" crusade is bad and stupid.

dragonwriter 13y ago
> >fat shaming is bad, and stupid > No, it's not. Yes it is. > Obesity is unhealthy and usually the result of bad habits. Shaming isn't therapy for bad habits, and "usually" wouldn't justify it even if it was. > All the ex-fatties I know think this "fat acceptance" crusade is bad and stupid. And...so what?
VLM 13y ago
"Obesity is ... usually the result of bad habits." wrong, usually poor education / bad for profit dietary advice. Wanna sit around all day and eat while watching TV? Sure go ahead here's a bottomless bag of celery to eat. Or carrots. Or lettuce. Good luck getting fat on that. But if the .com and .gov make a lot of money promoting corn chips, it doesn't matter that corn is terrible for mammals other than fattening up livestock on the farm, there's money to be made, pork those babes up with corn chips. Ditto 2 liters of corn syrup soda, bowls of ice cream, anything with refined sugar added. Get back to me when a disgusting display of gluttony involving grilled chicken ceasars salad results in obesity. On the other hand if its something that farmers slop their hogs with to fatten them up, like, say, corn products, well, guess what happens if you slop the chicks with corn products?
- adrr 13y ago
  I don't think its poor education. I think its the lack of caring. I think people realize it isn't healthy to drink a two liter of soda a day, but people still do it. Nutrition for food including fast food is posted everywhere. You have to make cognitive choice to ignore it.
  - varelse 13y ago
    And I think that's because they've convinced themselves that things are never going to get any better. They're completely and utterly wrong about that. But to get there would involve taking a new approach to getting out of whatever circumstances got them where they are and most will never do so. The few that do will become the next generation's rags to riches stories.
  - VLM 13y ago
    I would strongly disagree in that there's no reason other than ignorance and frankly .gov/.com corruption that we don't treat sugars and grains and grain based products like cigarettes or beer. I don't think the opposite extreme of copying the War On Some Drugs is a great model, throwing street level dealers in prison for selling ice cream to minors is going a bit far. I see no reason that any corn syrup soda should not have a surgeon's general warning stamped on it, "this product is medically proven to fatten, sicken, then kill its users" or similar wording. Its illegal to market cigs and alcohol to kids, especially on TV, why not ban marketing of ice cream to kids? Breakfast cereal is a product designed and manufactured to make people fat, and probably shouldn't exist as currently marketed to kids.
lelandbatey 13y ago
It is, but smoking is unhealthy and usually the result of bad habits. Alcoholism can be as well. Shame is a powerful thing, one that has it's place. However, most people who deal with removing an emotional or physical crutch will tell you that lots of tough love and harsh words won't do the trick. This is why 'fat shaming' might be fine in the eyes of some, but it's not in the eyes of everyone. Now, I'm also not for the whole idea of 'fat acceptance', since it's just the opposite extreme of shame. Neither extreme will actually help people become more healthy (in the large and general scale). As always, the solution is in the middle: lots of love and support, but also unwavering commitment to solving a problem. The carrot and the stick.
nav1 13y ago
I really don't understand this point of view. Everyone makes their own choices. Just because you see something as unhealthy does not really mean you should shame them. How does someone being fat really affect you? There is no reason to not accept fat people in the first place.
- VLM 13y ago
  When you're related to them and they die young? That's kinda a bummer. I already am in a socialized medicine system where we all share the costs for everyone, its just run by private sector for profit crooks who skim a huge amount off the top, mostly. So every penny spent on fat dude's insulin so he can keep drinking corn syrup soda is a penny that can't be spent on something I directly care about, like glaucoma (yeah yeah I know just get medical weed, whatever...) or celiac disease or other topics.
  - nav1 13y ago
    But a person can lead an unhealthy lifestyle and not be obese. Obesity is just one of the factors that can cause health problems. Shaming people for being obese (or for any reason) is certainly not going to help them.
    - VLM 13y ago
      I will tentatively agree the shame factor is a mess. It cries out for analogies with shaming people into not drinking and driving, and shaming them into wearing their seatbelts. I'm not sure if those analogies prove my side or yours, but I'm pretty sure they are great analogies for the topic, one way or another. If you're trying to define a new cultural norm, in this case for eating, you're probably going to roll out a group-think consensus type meme, so not shaming people for being rebels is going to be an issue. This strategy needs a (good) marketing guy. The Apple iDinner, now without love handles. Something like that.
aznjons 13y ago
Fat shaming actually increases risk of becoming or staying obese. So although obesity is unhealthy, fat shaming is still bad and stupid since it does not help, and actually hurts. There are better ways to help people become healthy. >The present research demonstrates that, in addition to poorer mental health outcomes, weight discrimination has implications for obesity. Rather than motivating individuals to lose weight, weight discrimination increases risk for obesity. Source: http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0070048 http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone...
- randyrand 13y ago
  1) You cant say that unilaterally - Fat shaming may very well also prevent skinny people from becoming fat. You can't just look at already fat people. 2) These self reported "weight discrimination" studies have so many biases you really shouldn't take them as fact. 3) The usual correlation =/= causation speech. It could very well be that amount of discrimination also varies with weight (duh) and that those that get a lot of discrimination are already past the point of motivation to change (just one of many alternative theories. This specific example isn't the best by any stretch). All in all, it just does not make as much intuitive sense that fat jokes (among other things) encourage people to stay fat and this little study is definitely not enough to override occams razor in my opinion.
  - aznjons 13y ago
    Did you bother to read the abstract of the source provided? It directly refutes pretty much all of your points including a control group. For your convenience, I've italicized the relevant text: >Participants were drawn from the Health and Retirement Study, a nationally representative longitudinal survey of community-dwelling US residents. A total of 6,157 participants (58.6% female) completed the discrimination measure and had weight and height available from the 2006 and 2010 assessments. Participants who experienced weight discrimination were approximately 2.5 times more likely to become obese by follow-up (OR = 2.54, 95% CI = 1.58–4.08) and participants who were obese at baseline were three times more likely to remain obese at follow up (OR = 3.20, 95% CI = 2.06–4.97) than those who had not experienced such discrimination. These effects held when controlling for demographic factors (age, sex, ethnicity, education) and when baseline BMI was included as a covariate.
ehmish 13y ago
Obesity yes, but being merely overweight isn't actually particularly bad for your health. http://www.iub.edu/~k536/images/patho/bmimortality.jpg http://www.iub.edu/~k536/images/patho/bmimortality.jpg Edit: this also looks relevant http://protonsforbreakfast.wordpress.com/tag/mortality/ http://protonsforbreakfast.wordpress.com/tag/mortality/
sliverstorm 13y ago
You're conflating two thing. While there is no question that being excessively overweight is bad for your health, that doesn't mean fat-shaming is the best way to remedy the problem, let alone even a good way. I'm having difficulty elaborating, so an analogy: letting snake venom course through your body after receiving a snakebite is not good. But that doesn't mean cutting off the affected limb is good.
DanBC 13y ago
Why do you assume the opposite of "fat shaming" is "fat acceptance"? Especially when I talk about the distortions of language caused by people's shifting perceptions? Fat shaming doesn't help fat people lose weight. It just makes them feel bad about themselves. It may well make some people eat more. It polarises the debate, and pushes some people into the fat acceptance camps. Fat shaming is harmful. Note that fat shaming is different from being honest about body weight.

>fat shaming is bad, and stupid No, it's not. Obesity is unhealthy and usually the result of bad habits. All the ex-fatties I know think this "fat acceptance" crusade is bad and stupid.

dragonwriter 13y ago

> >fat shaming is bad, and stupid > No, it's not. Yes it is. > Obesity is unhealthy and usually the result of bad habits. Shaming isn't therapy for bad habits, and "usually" wouldn't justify it even if it was. > All the ex-fatties I know think this "fat acceptance" crusade is bad and stupid. And...so what?

VLM 13y ago

"Obesity is ... usually the result of bad habits." wrong, usually poor education / bad for profit dietary advice. Wanna sit around all day and eat while watching TV? Sure go ahead here's a bottomless bag of celery to eat. Or carrots. Or lettuce. Good luck getting fat on that. But if the .com and .gov make a lot of money promoting corn chips, it doesn't matter that corn is terrible for mammals other than fattening up livestock on the farm, there's money to be made, pork those babes up with corn chips. Ditto 2 liters of corn syrup soda, bowls of ice cream, anything with refined sugar added. Get back to me when a disgusting display of gluttony involving grilled chicken ceasars salad results in obesity. On the other hand if its something that farmers slop their hogs with to fatten them up, like, say, corn products, well, guess what happens if you slop the chicks with corn products?

adrr 13y ago
I don't think its poor education. I think its the lack of caring. I think people realize it isn't healthy to drink a two liter of soda a day, but people still do it. Nutrition for food including fast food is posted everywhere. You have to make cognitive choice to ignore it.
- varelse 13y ago
  And I think that's because they've convinced themselves that things are never going to get any better. They're completely and utterly wrong about that. But to get there would involve taking a new approach to getting out of whatever circumstances got them where they are and most will never do so. The few that do will become the next generation's rags to riches stories.
- VLM 13y ago
  I would strongly disagree in that there's no reason other than ignorance and frankly .gov/.com corruption that we don't treat sugars and grains and grain based products like cigarettes or beer. I don't think the opposite extreme of copying the War On Some Drugs is a great model, throwing street level dealers in prison for selling ice cream to minors is going a bit far. I see no reason that any corn syrup soda should not have a surgeon's general warning stamped on it, "this product is medically proven to fatten, sicken, then kill its users" or similar wording. Its illegal to market cigs and alcohol to kids, especially on TV, why not ban marketing of ice cream to kids? Breakfast cereal is a product designed and manufactured to make people fat, and probably shouldn't exist as currently marketed to kids.

lelandbatey 13y ago

It is, but smoking is unhealthy and usually the result of bad habits. Alcoholism can be as well. Shame is a powerful thing, one that has it's place. However, most people who deal with removing an emotional or physical crutch will tell you that lots of tough love and harsh words won't do the trick. This is why 'fat shaming' might be fine in the eyes of some, but it's not in the eyes of everyone. Now, I'm also not for the whole idea of 'fat acceptance', since it's just the opposite extreme of shame. Neither extreme will actually help people become more healthy (in the large and general scale). As always, the solution is in the middle: lots of love and support, but also unwavering commitment to solving a problem. The carrot and the stick.

nav1 13y ago

I really don't understand this point of view. Everyone makes their own choices. Just because you see something as unhealthy does not really mean you should shame them. How does someone being fat really affect you? There is no reason to not accept fat people in the first place.

VLM 13y ago
When you're related to them and they die young? That's kinda a bummer. I already am in a socialized medicine system where we all share the costs for everyone, its just run by private sector for profit crooks who skim a huge amount off the top, mostly. So every penny spent on fat dude's insulin so he can keep drinking corn syrup soda is a penny that can't be spent on something I directly care about, like glaucoma (yeah yeah I know just get medical weed, whatever...) or celiac disease or other topics.
- nav1 13y ago
  But a person can lead an unhealthy lifestyle and not be obese. Obesity is just one of the factors that can cause health problems. Shaming people for being obese (or for any reason) is certainly not going to help them.
  - VLM 13y ago
    I will tentatively agree the shame factor is a mess. It cries out for analogies with shaming people into not drinking and driving, and shaming them into wearing their seatbelts. I'm not sure if those analogies prove my side or yours, but I'm pretty sure they are great analogies for the topic, one way or another. If you're trying to define a new cultural norm, in this case for eating, you're probably going to roll out a group-think consensus type meme, so not shaming people for being rebels is going to be an issue. This strategy needs a (good) marketing guy. The Apple iDinner, now without love handles. Something like that.

aznjons 13y ago

Fat shaming actually increases risk of becoming or staying obese. So although obesity is unhealthy, fat shaming is still bad and stupid since it does not help, and actually hurts. There are better ways to help people become healthy. >The present research demonstrates that, in addition to poorer mental health outcomes, weight discrimination has implications for obesity. Rather than motivating individuals to lose weight, weight discrimination increases risk for obesity. Source: http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0070048 http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone...

randyrand 13y ago
1) You cant say that unilaterally - Fat shaming may very well also prevent skinny people from becoming fat. You can't just look at already fat people. 2) These self reported "weight discrimination" studies have so many biases you really shouldn't take them as fact. 3) The usual correlation =/= causation speech. It could very well be that amount of discrimination also varies with weight (duh) and that those that get a lot of discrimination are already past the point of motivation to change (just one of many alternative theories. This specific example isn't the best by any stretch). All in all, it just does not make as much intuitive sense that fat jokes (among other things) encourage people to stay fat and this little study is definitely not enough to override occams razor in my opinion.
- aznjons 13y ago
  Did you bother to read the abstract of the source provided? It directly refutes pretty much all of your points including a control group. For your convenience, I've italicized the relevant text: >Participants were drawn from the Health and Retirement Study, a nationally representative longitudinal survey of community-dwelling US residents. A total of 6,157 participants (58.6% female) completed the discrimination measure and had weight and height available from the 2006 and 2010 assessments. Participants who experienced weight discrimination were approximately 2.5 times more likely to become obese by follow-up (OR = 2.54, 95% CI = 1.58–4.08) and participants who were obese at baseline were three times more likely to remain obese at follow up (OR = 3.20, 95% CI = 2.06–4.97) than those who had not experienced such discrimination. These effects held when controlling for demographic factors (age, sex, ethnicity, education) and when baseline BMI was included as a covariate.

ehmish 13y ago

Obesity yes, but being merely overweight isn't actually particularly bad for your health. http://www.iub.edu/~k536/images/patho/bmimortality.jpg http://www.iub.edu/~k536/images/patho/bmimortality.jpg Edit: this also looks relevant http://protonsforbreakfast.wordpress.com/tag/mortality/ http://protonsforbreakfast.wordpress.com/tag/mortality/

sliverstorm 13y ago

You're conflating two thing. While there is no question that being excessively overweight is bad for your health, that doesn't mean fat-shaming is the best way to remedy the problem, let alone even a good way. I'm having difficulty elaborating, so an analogy: letting snake venom course through your body after receiving a snakebite is not good. But that doesn't mean cutting off the affected limb is good.

DanBC 13y ago

Why do you assume the opposite of "fat shaming" is "fat acceptance"? Especially when I talk about the distortions of language caused by people's shifting perceptions? Fat shaming doesn't help fat people lose weight. It just makes them feel bad about themselves. It may well make some people eat more. It polarises the debate, and pushes some people into the fat acceptance camps. Fat shaming is harmful. Note that fat shaming is different from being honest about body weight.