13 ms·

NY Attorney General hits AirBnB with subpoena for user data

172 points by donohoe 13y ago

danso 13y ago
I wonder how much this could've been avoided had Airbnb built in tax collection into the system? Yes, the pain of doing it by jurisdiction is one of those unscalable tasks, but you only have to run through it once (i.e. look up the state tax laws) every few years, or hire a single lawyer/accountant to do it full time. I did a Airbnb stay in Rome last year...the gov't there has been trying to better enforce its tax laws, even to a comedic degree (you, the customer, can get in trouble for walking out of a gelato shop without a receipt). My host made very sure I signed the right paperwork after my stay...and I'm guessing as long as the state gets its share, it has less incentive to crack down on it.
- twoodfin 13y ago
  As others have speculated in this thread, I think their chief concern was implicitly acknowledging that their hosts were "hotels" or whatever other business type is covered by the tax. For one thing, making this determination jurisdiction-by-jurisdiction is much harder than simply looking up the hotel tax rate. For another, if Airbnb is representing a host as a "hotel" by charging the tax, they might be liable if that host turns out to not follow any of what must be dozens of legal requirements, again, all of which are going to vary greatly by jurisdiction.
- hippich 13y ago
  It is not just taxes (at least in USA,) It is also about building code, hotel licenses and different neighborhood's/apartment complexes rules someone could be breaking if renting their house/apartment.
argumentum 13y ago
There seems to be some confusion about the tax issue here .. many commenters seem to think that AirBnB hosts are avoiding tax on their income via AirBnB. That's simply not true, in fact AirBnB reports this income to the IRS and you are required to fill out a tax form to continue hosting. The issue at question is a tiny (% wise) hotel tax. In my view AirBnB is not resisting this tax for its own sake, but rather because it risks classifying hosts as hotel operators. AirBnB is a wonderful service, and yes it has flaws, but NYC is caving to the demands of political interests who know how to play the lobbying game.
- untog 13y ago
  it risks classifying hosts as hotel operators But why is that a risk, or a negative? I'd be interested to know what obligations hotel operators have. If it's putting in fire extinguishers and ensuring emergency fire exit access, then, well, sign them up.
  - marknutter 13y ago
    Because an apartment is not a hotel. What on earth would an emergency exit for an apartment be? The front door? I'm betting there are all sorts of requirements that simply wouldn't make sense when applied to a single apartment.
    - untog 13y ago
      What on earth would an emergency exit for an apartment be? The front door? Do you think all hotels rooms have two exits? Of course not. The issue is whether the floor and the building have sufficient emergency exits. And that's where it will get complicated. A hotel owns the entire building and can ensure that stuff - someone owning one apartment in the building can't really make any modifications if they are needed.
      - marknutter 13y ago
        Right, so you're making my point for me. The apartment owner literally has no power over whether or not the larger building complies with these regulations. So maybe that's the point; to prevent them from ever subletting their apartments. If so then just make subletting illegal and be done with it. A question to ask yourself: does it make sense to require hotels to adhere to these safety regulations but not apartment buildings?
        untog 13y ago
        If so then just make subletting illegal and be done with it. Which it is, without landlord permission. Which, pretty clearly, most people are not obtaining.
dbags 13y ago
Good. I know that Chesky is trying to pretend that this is about people who occasionally share their homes, but that's bullshit. There are a lot of people who are stuck living next to illegal, untaxed hotels because one of their neighbors AirBNBs their place full time. I know that a lot of people on this site think that if you add the words 'on the internet' you should be exempt from all regulation and taxation, but that's just not how the world works. I hope that the people who've been profiting from the lack of enforcement are forced to play on a level playing field. Disclaimer: my experience with NYC AirBNBs have been incredibly negative, including people listing with fake names, revealing that they'd given fake addresses at the last minute (when it was already too late to change plans), showing deceptive photos, and giving false descriptions.
- laxatives 13y ago
  I'm living in one of these places now and I could not say enough negative things about the place or AirBNB. Its a mess, most of the rooms are either filled with beds or used entirely for furniture/tool storage. There were no shared trashbins until about 4-6 weeks after I had arrived. One of the guests had a severe breakdown and would spend hours in the middle of the night rapping or shouting at the top of the lungs, forcing his roommates to move to the permanent tents in the backyard. Eventually the guy left during one of his rants and disappeared for a few days, during which the landlord had us avoid calling the police because he did not want to have them involved. Worst of all, I feel like none of us are in a position to do anything. I complained within a few hours of arrival on my first day because the place is a mess, but AirBNB charges a months rent to leave early on a long term stay and there's nothing to gain in destroying our relatioships with the landlord. The rating system also makes it so that taking any action would probably result in an open flame war so that I'd probably get rejected by future landlords. I'll probably never use AirBNB again regardless.
  - NathanKP 13y ago
    Wow... You guys seem to have had horrible experiences. May I ask what area you are staying in? I've stayed at Airbnb places in the Williamsburg, Brooklyn area about ten times now over the past couple years and my experience has been satisfactory every time. And I've stayed in the entire range of Airbnb, from very nice places where I'm basically a roommate for a month and eating meals with my host, etc, to places where I rarely see the owner and it is obvious they don't live there but just rent it out, to an old loft that was subdivided into small rooms and being rented out to four different Airbnb guests at once. The subdivided loft one was probably the most illegal one I ever stayed in because it certainly wasn't up to code but it was still very cool and the other guests were polite and quiet. The only time I've ever had a bad experience with AirBNB was once when staying at a place in San Francisco which turned out to be very dirty due to the owner being out of country and just having his next door neighbor give the keys to short term renters. The rating system also makes it so that taking any action would probably result in an open flame war so that I'd probably get rejected by future landlords. I call bullshit on this. Leaving a bad review on a host is not going to get you rejected by future landlords unless those landlords are also running dumps and they don't want to get bad reviews, and in that case you probably don't want to stay there anyway. The key is to find places that have lots of reviews and read them. If you see anything amiss don't stay there. If you stick to well reviewed places you will have a great experience. If you choose to break new ground and try completely new unreviewed places (which I have done from time to time) it is more of a gamble. You can also get some great experiences that way as well, because in general newer, unreviewed places don't charge as much so as to attract people, while the older very well reviewed and run places will charge nearly double in most cases compared to brand new places. Basically, you get what you pay for, as with many other things in life.
beedogs 13y ago
This was pretty much bound to happen. Next they'll go after each host for all sorts of taxes and penalties.
- triplesec 13y ago
  Indeed. The rhetoric says "evil landlords". The practice is more likely the low-hanging fruit. A bit like zero-tolerance policing: hits the human pawns and ordinary people the hardest and the actual putative bad guys get a free pass, as usual.
  - jtbigwoo 13y ago
    I hope there's a cost/benefit analysis here where the Attorney General's office hits those landlords above a certain number of nights. It wouldn't necessarily make economic sense to go after a guy renting out a single apartment.
    - triplesec 13y ago
      Unfortunately, sense and rationality do not figure highly in the decisions of the big swinging dicks, especially when they want to get easy wins for election charts.
kfk 13y ago
The thing is, you have laws and tax laws and, for how unjust they might seem, a State has to enforce them, full stop. However, users data. I don't know, there is a thin line between enforcing the law and not respecting citizens freedom and privacy. The housing argument, instead, is just ludicrous. Let's put all the hotels in the city out in the suburbs then.
- buro9 13y ago
  Users in this context are AirBNBs users, those letting their apartments short-term. Which means that this is the State's hitlist of tax avoiders. This is tax enforcement pure and simple, and doesn't seem to be a privacy issue. I've never heard of a reasonable defence against not paying tax being "that's my business and not yours", tax enforcement always wins.
  - kfk 13y ago
    In Italy tax authorities have grown more and more powerful during the last years. At some point, they were suggesting checking all personal bank accounts and expenditures. Think on the consequences of this. By the way, in the AirBnB case, you can always have police pretending to rent flats to get the tax offenders. This would protect privacy and scare offenders.
    - Xylakant 13y ago
      Or - gasp - AirBnB could collect and pay the tax on behalf of the flat owner. That would protect privacy and eliminate offenders.
      - sitkack 13y ago
        But then AirBnB couldn't keep riding the ridiculous gravy train it is on. They are just front loading their bank account while claiming "this a new emerging market that we are all trying to figure out." at the expense of all users in the system.
      - Fomite 13y ago
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
jval 13y ago
Right... so Attorney General Eric Schneiderman's campaign contributors last election? http://www.followthemoney.org/database/StateGlance/candidate.phtml?c=135707 http://www.followthemoney.org/database/StateGlance/candidate... At number 4 with 1.58% of total campaign moneys, East 103rd Street Realty. Parent corporation: Glenwood Real Estate Corp. http://www.glenwoodnyc.com/properties/ http://www.glenwoodnyc.com/properties/ "Luxury Apartment Rentals in New York City" Obviously the fact that people are renting their apartments is not something that buildings are capable of managing for themselves and has become a matter of great importance to the entire state of New York.
- rayiner 13y ago
  That's just shocking ad hominem, and very bad ad hominem at that. So the parent company of the company that contributed less than 2% to this guy's election campaign offers luxury apartment rentals? Call the presses! Seriously, your naked aspersion doesn't even make sense in this context. AirBnB isn't competing with luxury apartment rentals. To the extent that a luxury apartment rental company might be interested in the issue, it's because they're worried about the impact on them if their tenants or the tenants of neighboring buildings start treating their properties as hotels through AirBnB. That concern is a totally valid one as a property owner.
  - selmnoo 13y ago
    I agree with the larger point you're making, but one nitpick: > AirBnB isn't competing with luxury apartment rentals. Have you seen some of the houses listed on AirBnB? There are some that ask like $3000 per night. Luxury apartment rentals have all the right reasons to be worried here.
    - Xylakant 13y ago
      > Luxury apartment rentals have all the right reasons to be worried here. I doubt that. AirBnB is in the "give me an apartment for a short-term stay" market while luxury apartment rentals are more in the "I'd like to rent an apartment for living" market. Judging from a quick lock on the website, Glenwood Real Estate Corp doesn't want to go in the short-term rental market either.
sneak 13y ago
Yes, they just characterized property owners seeking fair market value from tenants as "robbing the city" (direct quote). Thanks, guys.
- triplesec 13y ago
  This is Tea-party-level argumentation, by recasting the argument in strawman terms. It is not the case that "I own therefore I am god". With power comes responsibility, and here there are people looking for gain without the commensurate social responsibility.
  - sneak 13y ago
    "Social responsibility" is imaginary, because society is imaginary. It can't be hurt, it doesn't have opinions, and we certainly don't have any responsibilities to it. It's an abstraction.
    - triplesec 13y ago
      By this argument, from solipsism, I can kill you because you are imaginary to me. However -- your poor arguments notwithstanding -- I do not wish to, but instead try to understand how on earth you can think society is imaginary when it has constructed your roads, schools, constitution, social values. Yes, you have social values, even if they just consist in denying them. And, oh, language. You didn't make that up. Nor did your parents... but a whole huge historical arse of people conjoined, like it or not, into collaborating into creating (and often destroying) their common world and experience.
      - sneak 13y ago
        Men constructed those roads, buildings, and documents - not society. Or do you contend that "society" is exactly equal to the few dozen men who authored the US constitution? That simply doesn't make sense. You may want to consider the fact that this applies to "corporations" as well. They're legal fictions. They can't be prosecuted, because they can't break laws, because they can't act. Only individuals can break laws and face prosecution, because only individuals can actually _do_ things.
lotsofcows 13y ago
"A drunk European"? Nice, I do like a bit of casual racism.
- jalfresi 13y ago
  European isn't a race. I think you mean xenophobia.
  - triplesec 13y ago
    Still it's pretty fair. We drink a lot. We exported a lot of our Puritans to the New World. For better or worse.
    - Xylakant 13y ago
      A comment befitting your nickname. The array of empty liquor bottles after fridays party agrees with you.
    - untog 13y ago
      It's also fair in the sense that Europeans in New York are going to be on vacation, therefore quite likely to be drunk.
  - lotsofcows 13y ago
    No, I mean racist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(human_classification) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(human_classification)
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
danielweber 13y ago
Is it normal for nydailynews to have editorializing right in the subheadline? "State is concerned about hotel occupancy taxes and possible evictions by greedy building owners." Greedy is a value judgment with big negative connotations.
- JackFr 13y ago
  To your first question, yes.
- po 13y ago
  Is it normal for nydailynews to have editorializing right in the subheadline? Yes. Very normal. It's a tabloid.
- noarchy 13y ago
  They could just as easily have rewritten the headline to say: "Greedy State is concerned about hotel occupancy taxes and possible evictions by building owners." The headline is indeed making a value judgement that the State is noble in going after money, but that building owners are not when they want money.
- goatforce5 13y ago
  The state may be concerned about building owners who are greedy. That doesn't imply that all building owners are greedy.
king_jester 13y ago
It is important to note that is it a big deal to NYC to ensure that residential spaces do not become de facto hotel rooms that avoid the taxes and regulation associated with running a hotel. NYC has been experiencing tremendous rent cost increases over the last decade and housing costs are becoming more unaffordable. Any residential space that gets turned into a pseudo hotel that generates income at the expense of being a livable space for an NYC resident only makes this situation worse.
testing12341234 13y ago
Does anyone know if an out of state ecommerce site like Amazon is required to give user data in this manner. Focusing on the state tax issue, it would appear that these two systems are similar in that taxpayer is required to declare and remit taxes (but often doesn't). (obviously the other issues about whether it's even legal to rent out in the first place is another matter)
- smackfu 13y ago
  North Carolina tried back in 2010: http://news.cnet.com/8301-31921_3-20020680-281.html http://news.cnet.com/8301-31921_3-20020680-281.html It was denied as a violation of privacy.
- Xylakant 13y ago
  The german tax authorities actually crawl ebay to find commercial sellers posing as private citizens.
- epc 13y ago
  I don't know that it's a routine thing but NY State has requested (and received) sales data from Amazon in the past.
olleicua 13y ago
This is completely unreasonable. The NSA doing this in secret is one thing but now they aren't even trying to hide it.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
wahsd 13y ago
This is so damn disgusting! But it also reveals, and people should realize how much of our society is actually a facade. This is not liberty or freedom, for you to do with with your apartment or home how you wish. Next thing you know the government is going to subpoena Craigslist to hunt down sales taxes for the banged up table you sold? This is subversion, perversion, and corruption of public resources and policy to ensure private profits and gains because corporations really don't compete in America, they simply rig a system that makes is look like competition. Our economy is fraud, just like that Western Town at Disney World is a fraud. Next up, you have to have a tracking device in your car to make sure you pay your taxes for being a DD and they buy your food and soda in exchange.
- camus 13y ago
  You cant beat the system, unless you have good friends or a lot of money to lobby the government. But dont make it about liberty and freedom , that's totally relative.There is no such thing as absolute "liberty" or "freedom" ,some places are just more free than others and trust me you are lucky enough to live where you live. This is not subversion ,this is how the system works. And you'll go with the flow eventually.
wehadfun 13y ago
I own a vacation rental and list on AirBnB. AirBnB should pay the taxes. AirBnB is not a simple directory of houses/apartments/tents for rent. They are a "reseller" or maybe "re-renter" of houses/apartments/... For example you may charge $100 a night but AirBnB sells your property for like $125 a night. Is the host supposed to pay taxes on the whole $125? Really the guest is not even renting from the host. The guest is renting from AirBnB. The guest pays AirBnb not the host. When a guest pays AirBnb keeps the money until the guest arrives and pay you at their discretion. If there is a problem and the host wants some of the guest security deposit. The host has to ask AirBnb for it and AirBnb determines how much the host gets. A host can't even email the guest or get their phone number until AirBnb allows. As a host you are a supplier to AirBnb and suppliers in general do not have to deal with taxes. If you buy a coke from a gas station, the gas station is responsible for paying local taxes Not The Coca-Cola Company.
- jchung 13y ago
  Actually Coca Cola pays taxes on its income just like you do. But I'm interested in the broader point you're advocating for... Why do you care if AirBnB pays the taxes instead of you? Unless you think the renters are going to suddenly start paying more (unlikely), you're taking it on the chin at some point, either in the form of reduced income for you when AirBnB starts taking a cut, or in the form of reduced demand when AirBnB raises prices across the board and guest demand is decreased.
  - wehadfun 13y ago
    I said "local taxes". Sure Coke pays income taxes but they do not pay sales tax in every place where coke is sold. Reduced income when AirBnb takes a cut? They take a cut. On both sides. They reason why Airbnb should pay taxes is they are the ones actually selling. Not the host. When you buy something at a grocery store. The store charges sales tax and they are responsible for sending it to the local tax people. The supliers may have to pay income tax but sales tax is paid by the seller.
- some1else 13y ago
  You both pay taxes according to your capital gains and expenditures. Your gains are $100, AirBnB's are $25. Coca-Cola pays taxes, too.
camus 13y ago
To all the people that think Airbnb is great , why should landlords have tenants so tenants can sublet ? landlords will end up posting offers on Airbnb directly ,that's what will happen "en masse" in the future. And You'll need to pay the Airbnb premium to rent anything. After all , if i'm a landlord and ask for 2000$ a month for normal tenants , i can just go on Airbnb and ask for 200 or more an night , so i only need to rent it for 10 days a month for it to be profitable... Landlords arent stupid we'll eventually end up in that situation on a large scale.
- pessimizer 13y ago
  I'm not sure why this isn't the top comment on any of these threads. The only place that I know of that gives tenants an absolute right to sublet is Chicago (https://www.cityofchicago.org/content/dam/city/depts/dcd/general/housing/RLTOEnglish.pdf https://www.cityofchicago.org/content/dam/city/depts/dcd/gen... see:SUBLEASES) Where this right doesn't exist, the standard tenant agreement will come to always contain a no AirBnB clause. AirBnB will be a thing that landlords do. Property management companies are against it because it automates them out of existence. For landlords, it will be an unprecedented boon. Eventually people will be bragging about buying a 1 year lease on property like they once bragged about buying property. This terrifies me, because I think that it will be a fairly irreversible phase change that solves the massive vacancy rate problem that we've had since the property bubble inflated. It's like German work sharing applied to housing (the vacancy rate will be spread more evenly across rental properties over time.)
  - vdaniuk 13y ago
    Why does it terrify you?
    - pessimizer 13y ago
      Because rents will double.
- wehadfun 13y ago
  Clearly you do not rent property. Renting on AirBnB is more complicated, expensinve, hard then your typical month to month. First of all you have to clean up between guest, re-stock soap, toilet paper, napkins,... You have to furnish the place, pay all utilities including Wifi and probably cable. I have gotten calls at 10pm because a renter could not figure out how to change input on the TV from DVD player to cable. Regular landlords don't want to deal with these types of issues and probably couldn't with out a customer support staff.
geebee 13y ago
New York and San Francisco tend to have powerful tenant protection laws. I'm kind of curious - what would the legal situation be if someone rented an apartment on airbnb and then refused to leave, insisting that he or she is now a tenant and demanding that the landlord go through standard eviction proceedings (which I believe requires valid "cause" in San Francisco)? Does anyone know if this has been litigated?

172 points by donohoe 13y ago

danso 13y ago

I wonder how much this could've been avoided had Airbnb built in tax collection into the system? Yes, the pain of doing it by jurisdiction is one of those unscalable tasks, but you only have to run through it once (i.e. look up the state tax laws) every few years, or hire a single lawyer/accountant to do it full time. I did a Airbnb stay in Rome last year...the gov't there has been trying to better enforce its tax laws, even to a comedic degree (you, the customer, can get in trouble for walking out of a gelato shop without a receipt). My host made very sure I signed the right paperwork after my stay...and I'm guessing as long as the state gets its share, it has less incentive to crack down on it.

twoodfin 13y ago
As others have speculated in this thread, I think their chief concern was implicitly acknowledging that their hosts were "hotels" or whatever other business type is covered by the tax. For one thing, making this determination jurisdiction-by-jurisdiction is much harder than simply looking up the hotel tax rate. For another, if Airbnb is representing a host as a "hotel" by charging the tax, they might be liable if that host turns out to not follow any of what must be dozens of legal requirements, again, all of which are going to vary greatly by jurisdiction.
hippich 13y ago
It is not just taxes (at least in USA,) It is also about building code, hotel licenses and different neighborhood's/apartment complexes rules someone could be breaking if renting their house/apartment.

argumentum 13y ago

There seems to be some confusion about the tax issue here .. many commenters seem to think that AirBnB hosts are avoiding tax on their income via AirBnB. That's simply not true, in fact AirBnB reports this income to the IRS and you are required to fill out a tax form to continue hosting. The issue at question is a tiny (% wise) hotel tax. In my view AirBnB is not resisting this tax for its own sake, but rather because it risks classifying hosts as hotel operators. AirBnB is a wonderful service, and yes it has flaws, but NYC is caving to the demands of political interests who know how to play the lobbying game.

untog 13y ago
it risks classifying hosts as hotel operators But why is that a risk, or a negative? I'd be interested to know what obligations hotel operators have. If it's putting in fire extinguishers and ensuring emergency fire exit access, then, well, sign them up.
- marknutter 13y ago
  Because an apartment is not a hotel. What on earth would an emergency exit for an apartment be? The front door? I'm betting there are all sorts of requirements that simply wouldn't make sense when applied to a single apartment.
  - untog 13y ago
    What on earth would an emergency exit for an apartment be? The front door? Do you think all hotels rooms have two exits? Of course not. The issue is whether the floor and the building have sufficient emergency exits. And that's where it will get complicated. A hotel owns the entire building and can ensure that stuff - someone owning one apartment in the building can't really make any modifications if they are needed.
    - marknutter 13y ago
      Right, so you're making my point for me. The apartment owner literally has no power over whether or not the larger building complies with these regulations. So maybe that's the point; to prevent them from ever subletting their apartments. If so then just make subletting illegal and be done with it. A question to ask yourself: does it make sense to require hotels to adhere to these safety regulations but not apartment buildings?
      - untog 13y ago
        If so then just make subletting illegal and be done with it. Which it is, without landlord permission. Which, pretty clearly, most people are not obtaining.

dbags 13y ago

Good. I know that Chesky is trying to pretend that this is about people who occasionally share their homes, but that's bullshit. There are a lot of people who are stuck living next to illegal, untaxed hotels because one of their neighbors AirBNBs their place full time. I know that a lot of people on this site think that if you add the words 'on the internet' you should be exempt from all regulation and taxation, but that's just not how the world works. I hope that the people who've been profiting from the lack of enforcement are forced to play on a level playing field. Disclaimer: my experience with NYC AirBNBs have been incredibly negative, including people listing with fake names, revealing that they'd given fake addresses at the last minute (when it was already too late to change plans), showing deceptive photos, and giving false descriptions.

laxatives 13y ago
I'm living in one of these places now and I could not say enough negative things about the place or AirBNB. Its a mess, most of the rooms are either filled with beds or used entirely for furniture/tool storage. There were no shared trashbins until about 4-6 weeks after I had arrived. One of the guests had a severe breakdown and would spend hours in the middle of the night rapping or shouting at the top of the lungs, forcing his roommates to move to the permanent tents in the backyard. Eventually the guy left during one of his rants and disappeared for a few days, during which the landlord had us avoid calling the police because he did not want to have them involved. Worst of all, I feel like none of us are in a position to do anything. I complained within a few hours of arrival on my first day because the place is a mess, but AirBNB charges a months rent to leave early on a long term stay and there's nothing to gain in destroying our relatioships with the landlord. The rating system also makes it so that taking any action would probably result in an open flame war so that I'd probably get rejected by future landlords. I'll probably never use AirBNB again regardless.
- NathanKP 13y ago
  Wow... You guys seem to have had horrible experiences. May I ask what area you are staying in? I've stayed at Airbnb places in the Williamsburg, Brooklyn area about ten times now over the past couple years and my experience has been satisfactory every time. And I've stayed in the entire range of Airbnb, from very nice places where I'm basically a roommate for a month and eating meals with my host, etc, to places where I rarely see the owner and it is obvious they don't live there but just rent it out, to an old loft that was subdivided into small rooms and being rented out to four different Airbnb guests at once. The subdivided loft one was probably the most illegal one I ever stayed in because it certainly wasn't up to code but it was still very cool and the other guests were polite and quiet. The only time I've ever had a bad experience with AirBNB was once when staying at a place in San Francisco which turned out to be very dirty due to the owner being out of country and just having his next door neighbor give the keys to short term renters. The rating system also makes it so that taking any action would probably result in an open flame war so that I'd probably get rejected by future landlords. I call bullshit on this. Leaving a bad review on a host is not going to get you rejected by future landlords unless those landlords are also running dumps and they don't want to get bad reviews, and in that case you probably don't want to stay there anyway. The key is to find places that have lots of reviews and read them. If you see anything amiss don't stay there. If you stick to well reviewed places you will have a great experience. If you choose to break new ground and try completely new unreviewed places (which I have done from time to time) it is more of a gamble. You can also get some great experiences that way as well, because in general newer, unreviewed places don't charge as much so as to attract people, while the older very well reviewed and run places will charge nearly double in most cases compared to brand new places. Basically, you get what you pay for, as with many other things in life.

beedogs 13y ago

This was pretty much bound to happen. Next they'll go after each host for all sorts of taxes and penalties.

triplesec 13y ago
Indeed. The rhetoric says "evil landlords". The practice is more likely the low-hanging fruit. A bit like zero-tolerance policing: hits the human pawns and ordinary people the hardest and the actual putative bad guys get a free pass, as usual.
- jtbigwoo 13y ago
  I hope there's a cost/benefit analysis here where the Attorney General's office hits those landlords above a certain number of nights. It wouldn't necessarily make economic sense to go after a guy renting out a single apartment.
  - triplesec 13y ago
    Unfortunately, sense and rationality do not figure highly in the decisions of the big swinging dicks, especially when they want to get easy wins for election charts.

kfk 13y ago

The thing is, you have laws and tax laws and, for how unjust they might seem, a State has to enforce them, full stop. However, users data. I don't know, there is a thin line between enforcing the law and not respecting citizens freedom and privacy. The housing argument, instead, is just ludicrous. Let's put all the hotels in the city out in the suburbs then.

buro9 13y ago
Users in this context are AirBNBs users, those letting their apartments short-term. Which means that this is the State's hitlist of tax avoiders. This is tax enforcement pure and simple, and doesn't seem to be a privacy issue. I've never heard of a reasonable defence against not paying tax being "that's my business and not yours", tax enforcement always wins.
- kfk 13y ago
  In Italy tax authorities have grown more and more powerful during the last years. At some point, they were suggesting checking all personal bank accounts and expenditures. Think on the consequences of this. By the way, in the AirBnB case, you can always have police pretending to rent flats to get the tax offenders. This would protect privacy and scare offenders.
  - Xylakant 13y ago
    Or - gasp - AirBnB could collect and pay the tax on behalf of the flat owner. That would protect privacy and eliminate offenders.
    - sitkack 13y ago
      But then AirBnB couldn't keep riding the ridiculous gravy train it is on. They are just front loading their bank account while claiming "this a new emerging market that we are all trying to figure out." at the expense of all users in the system.
    - Fomite 13y ago

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

jval 13y ago

Right... so Attorney General Eric Schneiderman's campaign contributors last election? http://www.followthemoney.org/database/StateGlance/candidate.phtml?c=135707 http://www.followthemoney.org/database/StateGlance/candidate... At number 4 with 1.58% of total campaign moneys, East 103rd Street Realty. Parent corporation: Glenwood Real Estate Corp. http://www.glenwoodnyc.com/properties/ http://www.glenwoodnyc.com/properties/ "Luxury Apartment Rentals in New York City" Obviously the fact that people are renting their apartments is not something that buildings are capable of managing for themselves and has become a matter of great importance to the entire state of New York.

rayiner 13y ago
That's just shocking ad hominem, and very bad ad hominem at that. So the parent company of the company that contributed less than 2% to this guy's election campaign offers luxury apartment rentals? Call the presses! Seriously, your naked aspersion doesn't even make sense in this context. AirBnB isn't competing with luxury apartment rentals. To the extent that a luxury apartment rental company might be interested in the issue, it's because they're worried about the impact on them if their tenants or the tenants of neighboring buildings start treating their properties as hotels through AirBnB. That concern is a totally valid one as a property owner.
- selmnoo 13y ago
  I agree with the larger point you're making, but one nitpick: > AirBnB isn't competing with luxury apartment rentals. Have you seen some of the houses listed on AirBnB? There are some that ask like $3000 per night. Luxury apartment rentals have all the right reasons to be worried here.
  - Xylakant 13y ago
    > Luxury apartment rentals have all the right reasons to be worried here. I doubt that. AirBnB is in the "give me an apartment for a short-term stay" market while luxury apartment rentals are more in the "I'd like to rent an apartment for living" market. Judging from a quick lock on the website, Glenwood Real Estate Corp doesn't want to go in the short-term rental market either.

sneak 13y ago

Yes, they just characterized property owners seeking fair market value from tenants as "robbing the city" (direct quote). Thanks, guys.

triplesec 13y ago
This is Tea-party-level argumentation, by recasting the argument in strawman terms. It is not the case that "I own therefore I am god". With power comes responsibility, and here there are people looking for gain without the commensurate social responsibility.
- sneak 13y ago
  "Social responsibility" is imaginary, because society is imaginary. It can't be hurt, it doesn't have opinions, and we certainly don't have any responsibilities to it. It's an abstraction.
  - triplesec 13y ago
    By this argument, from solipsism, I can kill you because you are imaginary to me. However -- your poor arguments notwithstanding -- I do not wish to, but instead try to understand how on earth you can think society is imaginary when it has constructed your roads, schools, constitution, social values. Yes, you have social values, even if they just consist in denying them. And, oh, language. You didn't make that up. Nor did your parents... but a whole huge historical arse of people conjoined, like it or not, into collaborating into creating (and often destroying) their common world and experience.
    - sneak 13y ago
      Men constructed those roads, buildings, and documents - not society. Or do you contend that "society" is exactly equal to the few dozen men who authored the US constitution? That simply doesn't make sense. You may want to consider the fact that this applies to "corporations" as well. They're legal fictions. They can't be prosecuted, because they can't break laws, because they can't act. Only individuals can break laws and face prosecution, because only individuals can actually _do_ things.

lotsofcows 13y ago

"A drunk European"? Nice, I do like a bit of casual racism.

jalfresi 13y ago
European isn't a race. I think you mean xenophobia.
- triplesec 13y ago
  Still it's pretty fair. We drink a lot. We exported a lot of our Puritans to the New World. For better or worse.
  - Xylakant 13y ago
    A comment befitting your nickname. The array of empty liquor bottles after fridays party agrees with you.
  - untog 13y ago
    It's also fair in the sense that Europeans in New York are going to be on vacation, therefore quite likely to be drunk.
- lotsofcows 13y ago
  No, I mean racist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(human_classification) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(human_classification)

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

danielweber 13y ago

Is it normal for nydailynews to have editorializing right in the subheadline? "State is concerned about hotel occupancy taxes and possible evictions by greedy building owners." Greedy is a value judgment with big negative connotations.

JackFr 13y ago
To your first question, yes.
po 13y ago
Is it normal for nydailynews to have editorializing right in the subheadline? Yes. Very normal. It's a tabloid.
noarchy 13y ago
They could just as easily have rewritten the headline to say: "Greedy State is concerned about hotel occupancy taxes and possible evictions by building owners." The headline is indeed making a value judgement that the State is noble in going after money, but that building owners are not when they want money.
goatforce5 13y ago
The state may be concerned about building owners who are greedy. That doesn't imply that all building owners are greedy.

king_jester 13y ago

It is important to note that is it a big deal to NYC to ensure that residential spaces do not become de facto hotel rooms that avoid the taxes and regulation associated with running a hotel. NYC has been experiencing tremendous rent cost increases over the last decade and housing costs are becoming more unaffordable. Any residential space that gets turned into a pseudo hotel that generates income at the expense of being a livable space for an NYC resident only makes this situation worse.

testing12341234 13y ago

Does anyone know if an out of state ecommerce site like Amazon is required to give user data in this manner. Focusing on the state tax issue, it would appear that these two systems are similar in that taxpayer is required to declare and remit taxes (but often doesn't). (obviously the other issues about whether it's even legal to rent out in the first place is another matter)

smackfu 13y ago
North Carolina tried back in 2010: http://news.cnet.com/8301-31921_3-20020680-281.html http://news.cnet.com/8301-31921_3-20020680-281.html It was denied as a violation of privacy.
Xylakant 13y ago
The german tax authorities actually crawl ebay to find commercial sellers posing as private citizens.
epc 13y ago
I don't know that it's a routine thing but NY State has requested (and received) sales data from Amazon in the past.

olleicua 13y ago

This is completely unreasonable. The NSA doing this in secret is one thing but now they aren't even trying to hide it.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

wahsd 13y ago

This is so damn disgusting! But it also reveals, and people should realize how much of our society is actually a facade. This is not liberty or freedom, for you to do with with your apartment or home how you wish. Next thing you know the government is going to subpoena Craigslist to hunt down sales taxes for the banged up table you sold? This is subversion, perversion, and corruption of public resources and policy to ensure private profits and gains because corporations really don't compete in America, they simply rig a system that makes is look like competition. Our economy is fraud, just like that Western Town at Disney World is a fraud. Next up, you have to have a tracking device in your car to make sure you pay your taxes for being a DD and they buy your food and soda in exchange.

camus 13y ago
You cant beat the system, unless you have good friends or a lot of money to lobby the government. But dont make it about liberty and freedom , that's totally relative.There is no such thing as absolute "liberty" or "freedom" ,some places are just more free than others and trust me you are lucky enough to live where you live. This is not subversion ,this is how the system works. And you'll go with the flow eventually.

wehadfun 13y ago

I own a vacation rental and list on AirBnB. AirBnB should pay the taxes. AirBnB is not a simple directory of houses/apartments/tents for rent. They are a "reseller" or maybe "re-renter" of houses/apartments/... For example you may charge $100 a night but AirBnB sells your property for like $125 a night. Is the host supposed to pay taxes on the whole $125? Really the guest is not even renting from the host. The guest is renting from AirBnB. The guest pays AirBnb not the host. When a guest pays AirBnb keeps the money until the guest arrives and pay you at their discretion. If there is a problem and the host wants some of the guest security deposit. The host has to ask AirBnb for it and AirBnb determines how much the host gets. A host can't even email the guest or get their phone number until AirBnb allows. As a host you are a supplier to AirBnb and suppliers in general do not have to deal with taxes. If you buy a coke from a gas station, the gas station is responsible for paying local taxes Not The Coca-Cola Company.

jchung 13y ago
Actually Coca Cola pays taxes on its income just like you do. But I'm interested in the broader point you're advocating for... Why do you care if AirBnB pays the taxes instead of you? Unless you think the renters are going to suddenly start paying more (unlikely), you're taking it on the chin at some point, either in the form of reduced income for you when AirBnB starts taking a cut, or in the form of reduced demand when AirBnB raises prices across the board and guest demand is decreased.
- wehadfun 13y ago
  I said "local taxes". Sure Coke pays income taxes but they do not pay sales tax in every place where coke is sold. Reduced income when AirBnb takes a cut? They take a cut. On both sides. They reason why Airbnb should pay taxes is they are the ones actually selling. Not the host. When you buy something at a grocery store. The store charges sales tax and they are responsible for sending it to the local tax people. The supliers may have to pay income tax but sales tax is paid by the seller.
some1else 13y ago
You both pay taxes according to your capital gains and expenditures. Your gains are $100, AirBnB's are $25. Coca-Cola pays taxes, too.

camus 13y ago

To all the people that think Airbnb is great , why should landlords have tenants so tenants can sublet ? landlords will end up posting offers on Airbnb directly ,that's what will happen "en masse" in the future. And You'll need to pay the Airbnb premium to rent anything. After all , if i'm a landlord and ask for 2000$ a month for normal tenants , i can just go on Airbnb and ask for 200 or more an night , so i only need to rent it for 10 days a month for it to be profitable... Landlords arent stupid we'll eventually end up in that situation on a large scale.

pessimizer 13y ago
I'm not sure why this isn't the top comment on any of these threads. The only place that I know of that gives tenants an absolute right to sublet is Chicago (https://www.cityofchicago.org/content/dam/city/depts/dcd/general/housing/RLTOEnglish.pdf https://www.cityofchicago.org/content/dam/city/depts/dcd/gen... see:SUBLEASES) Where this right doesn't exist, the standard tenant agreement will come to always contain a no AirBnB clause. AirBnB will be a thing that landlords do. Property management companies are against it because it automates them out of existence. For landlords, it will be an unprecedented boon. Eventually people will be bragging about buying a 1 year lease on property like they once bragged about buying property. This terrifies me, because I think that it will be a fairly irreversible phase change that solves the massive vacancy rate problem that we've had since the property bubble inflated. It's like German work sharing applied to housing (the vacancy rate will be spread more evenly across rental properties over time.)
- vdaniuk 13y ago
  Why does it terrify you?
  - pessimizer 13y ago
    Because rents will double.
wehadfun 13y ago
Clearly you do not rent property. Renting on AirBnB is more complicated, expensinve, hard then your typical month to month. First of all you have to clean up between guest, re-stock soap, toilet paper, napkins,... You have to furnish the place, pay all utilities including Wifi and probably cable. I have gotten calls at 10pm because a renter could not figure out how to change input on the TV from DVD player to cable. Regular landlords don't want to deal with these types of issues and probably couldn't with out a customer support staff.

geebee 13y ago

New York and San Francisco tend to have powerful tenant protection laws. I'm kind of curious - what would the legal situation be if someone rented an apartment on airbnb and then refused to leave, insisting that he or she is now a tenant and demanding that the landlord go through standard eviction proceedings (which I believe requires valid "cause" in San Francisco)? Does anyone know if this has been litigated?