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Just bear in mind for your calculations that in Switzerland a cup of coffee often costs $6 as does a can of coke. Cost of living is extremely high. But still, t

by ashray 13y ago

Just bear in mind for your calculations that in Switzerland a cup of coffee often costs $6 as does a can of coke. Cost of living is extremely high. But still, this does look like a decent deal. Zurich is like San Francisco in terms of expenses.

tikhonj 13y ago
For reference, I currently live in Berkeley. While not quite as expensive as SF, it's pretty close. I also live in one of the somewhat less cheap parts of the city (northside)--my rent is much higher than it could be. On the other hand, I do have a roommate--it all comes back to being young and single (but, again, not frugal).
- jamesaguilar 13y ago
  I'm just gonna throw this out there as a fellow Bay Area person. I like bragging about how bad I have it as much as the next social network self-flaggelator. But our costs aren't even remotely comparable to Zurich's. You need a lot more money to live there, especially if you even semi-regularly go out to eat. It's bad enough that when Swiss people come back through customs from other countries, their trunks are searched for groceries, not drugs.
  - lifeisstillgood 13y ago
    Well at least no-one tries wrapping an artichoke in a condom and swallowing it to get past customs. Not even the Swiss German speakers ;-)
    - lostlogin 13y ago
      I assumed I had missed a story. I've just run the oddest google search I've tried in the last little while.
      - lifeisstillgood 13y ago
        possibly the last remaining googlewhack ? :-)
seanmcdirmid 13y ago
A can of coke can cost 6CHF at Zurich airport maybe, but the standard price is 2CHF, and even cheaper at some grocery stores. San Francisco is still much cheaper than Zurich in terms of expenses, only the rents are kind of comparable.
- rdl 13y ago
  Medical expenses are presumably lower in Switzerland, college tuition at e.g. MIT for a person making $300k/yr vs. an ETH-Z student, and IIRC taxes on capital gains are lower in Switzerland than in NYC or California (due to state/local taxes). Consumer goods are definitely cheaper in the US.
  - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
    Those mandated insurance premiums are not cheap unless you are a post doc, hehe. Swiss spends 10% GDP on healthcare, which is higher than most Western European countries though not as high as the USA, which is at about 17% now. Income taxes are low, but you get reamed in the store for daily goods and food.
    - rdl 13y ago
      So I guess it's essentially regressive (or at least flat), in that rich people's consumption isn't dramatically greater than poor people, compared to income. Having a system like that plus a high floor seems relatively fair, IMO, and has reasonable consequences -- everyone is motivated to do marginally more work, and everyone is in a decent position to succeed, or at least for one's children to succeed. What's really pathological about the US system is that there are gaps where work or other effort is either directly disincented or is so foreign to poor/unsuccessful people that they view being successful as being a traitor to their culture/race/neighborhood/etc. And that for large groups of people, the only way to achieve success appears to be zero sum.
      - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
        The Swiss have slums, housing projects, and a perpetual lower class with little social mobility. The US system is surprisingly normal in its effectiveness vs a country like Swiss. There are plenty of places in the states where there is absolutely no opportunity. Take the Mississippi delta for example. Spend some time there and your view on poverty will probably change a bit, it is very much like a third world country where hard work won't get you much beyond survival.
mkuhn 13y ago
Cost of living is indeed bad but nowhere nearly as bad as you portray it. While food and rent is really expensive compared to the surrounding countries other things (e.g. Gasoline, Electronics) are cheaper. Also the high prices often also have a quality bias with the Swiss normally buying higher quality. An example of this is discounters such as Aldi or Lidl having a small market share even though they offer fresh products (which they do to a much lesser extent in other countries).
Ecio78 13y ago
You can compare the cost of living in the two cities using numbeo (posted here some months ago) http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Switzerland&city1=Zurich&country2=United+States&city2=San+Francisco%2C+CA&displayCurrency=USD http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?coun...
tluyben2 13y ago
Switzerland seems to be really expensive (I only went there on holiday a few times and then expensive doesn't matter too much as it's expected). I was going to rant about the fact not everyone lives in Zurich and in the countries I have lived the divide between rural and urban places is huge, price wise. Where I live, with the same behavioral patterns, living in a city is at least 5x more expensive than living in the country side and in the country side you get to live, for the same money, in a villa with a pool and tons of land instead of an apartment with concrete views. After checking housing prices, this difference does not seem to be as great in Switzerland. Is that true?
- jpatokal 13y ago
  Switzerland is small and has a famously efficient train system, so it's common to live a fair distance from the city: I have friends who work in Geneva but live in Lausanne, work in Zurich but live in Rapperswil, etc. If you draw circles around the main cities depicting the diameter of how far you can get in one hour by train, there's not much "rural" land left.
huhtenberg 13y ago
Stop with this senseless FUD, will you. A cup of coffee in Starbucks may cost $6. A cup of (a better) coffee in any cafe 2-3 CHF. Can of Coke is about the same if bought in a touristy place, but in a grocery shop it's a 2L bottle that will be that much. > Cost of living is extremely high. It's not. Cost of luxurious living is extremely high. In Geneva, in Zurich, perhaps in Bern and Basel. But you drive 10 minutes out of these cities and you have people who earn 40K CHF and live safely and decently, while still working in Geneva, Zurich, Bern and Basel. Things do cost more than in other countries, on average, but then an average Swiss lives well enough not to ever need a Wallmart. (edit) You can downvote me all you want. I lived in Switzerland for few years, so $6 can of Coke is the Swiss version of bears on Moscow's streets - it's a cute bullshit.
- ashray 13y ago
  First of all, I didn't down vote you. Secondly, all I suggested was that the OP take cost of living into account for his calculations. This is hardly senseless considering that cost of living in most Swiss cities is higher than most tier 2 American cities. Swiss cities often rank at the top for most expensive cities in the world so yeah, I'd say cost of living is certainly on the high side. Of course they also rank at the top for quality of life but that's another side of the same coin. Lastly, my numbers may not be current or correct (last I went to Switzerland was July '13) but your tone is certainly rude and out of line. Sorry I didn't represent Swiss prices correctly, thanks for the correction.
  - huhtenberg 13y ago
    My tone is out of line, huh? How about your entire comment is factually wrong and yet you picked an advisory tone for it. The coke doesn't cost 6 franks, nor the cost of living is "extremely high". Also, you should realize that people who might be interested in these 2500CHF will not be living in Zurich, which is more of an exception in terms of cost of living in Switzerland rather than the norm.
    - ashray 13y ago
      Do you have any citation to support your claim that Switzerland is not a high cost country ? A simple google search shows Switzerland as one of the most expensive countries in the world. Usually following Norway or Denmark. So why am I factually incorrect? I searched for 'worlds most expensive countries'. Maybe I did something wrong ? Of course I know everyone doesn't live in Zurich but the average cost of living is still relatively high outside of Zurich/Geneva. Also, I mentioned in my initial post that this is a good deal so we are in agreement for the most part.
handzhiev 13y ago
What stops you get your basic income and fly to East Europe every month (cheap flights available for less than $100) where you can live pretty well with this money?

by ashray 13y ago

tikhonj 13y ago

For reference, I currently live in Berkeley. While not quite as expensive as SF, it's pretty close. I also live in one of the somewhat less cheap parts of the city (northside)--my rent is much higher than it could be. On the other hand, I do have a roommate--it all comes back to being young and single (but, again, not frugal).

jamesaguilar 13y ago
I'm just gonna throw this out there as a fellow Bay Area person. I like bragging about how bad I have it as much as the next social network self-flaggelator. But our costs aren't even remotely comparable to Zurich's. You need a lot more money to live there, especially if you even semi-regularly go out to eat. It's bad enough that when Swiss people come back through customs from other countries, their trunks are searched for groceries, not drugs.
- lifeisstillgood 13y ago
  Well at least no-one tries wrapping an artichoke in a condom and swallowing it to get past customs. Not even the Swiss German speakers ;-)
  - lostlogin 13y ago
    I assumed I had missed a story. I've just run the oddest google search I've tried in the last little while.
    - lifeisstillgood 13y ago
      possibly the last remaining googlewhack ? :-)

seanmcdirmid 13y ago

A can of coke can cost 6CHF at Zurich airport maybe, but the standard price is 2CHF, and even cheaper at some grocery stores. San Francisco is still much cheaper than Zurich in terms of expenses, only the rents are kind of comparable.

rdl 13y ago
Medical expenses are presumably lower in Switzerland, college tuition at e.g. MIT for a person making $300k/yr vs. an ETH-Z student, and IIRC taxes on capital gains are lower in Switzerland than in NYC or California (due to state/local taxes). Consumer goods are definitely cheaper in the US.
- seanmcdirmid 13y ago
  Those mandated insurance premiums are not cheap unless you are a post doc, hehe. Swiss spends 10% GDP on healthcare, which is higher than most Western European countries though not as high as the USA, which is at about 17% now. Income taxes are low, but you get reamed in the store for daily goods and food.
  - rdl 13y ago
    So I guess it's essentially regressive (or at least flat), in that rich people's consumption isn't dramatically greater than poor people, compared to income. Having a system like that plus a high floor seems relatively fair, IMO, and has reasonable consequences -- everyone is motivated to do marginally more work, and everyone is in a decent position to succeed, or at least for one's children to succeed. What's really pathological about the US system is that there are gaps where work or other effort is either directly disincented or is so foreign to poor/unsuccessful people that they view being successful as being a traitor to their culture/race/neighborhood/etc. And that for large groups of people, the only way to achieve success appears to be zero sum.
    - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
      The Swiss have slums, housing projects, and a perpetual lower class with little social mobility. The US system is surprisingly normal in its effectiveness vs a country like Swiss. There are plenty of places in the states where there is absolutely no opportunity. Take the Mississippi delta for example. Spend some time there and your view on poverty will probably change a bit, it is very much like a third world country where hard work won't get you much beyond survival.

mkuhn 13y ago

Cost of living is indeed bad but nowhere nearly as bad as you portray it. While food and rent is really expensive compared to the surrounding countries other things (e.g. Gasoline, Electronics) are cheaper. Also the high prices often also have a quality bias with the Swiss normally buying higher quality. An example of this is discounters such as Aldi or Lidl having a small market share even though they offer fresh products (which they do to a much lesser extent in other countries).

Ecio78 13y ago

You can compare the cost of living in the two cities using numbeo (posted here some months ago) http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Switzerland&city1=Zurich&country2=United+States&city2=San+Francisco%2C+CA&displayCurrency=USD http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?coun...

tluyben2 13y ago

Switzerland seems to be really expensive (I only went there on holiday a few times and then expensive doesn't matter too much as it's expected). I was going to rant about the fact not everyone lives in Zurich and in the countries I have lived the divide between rural and urban places is huge, price wise. Where I live, with the same behavioral patterns, living in a city is at least 5x more expensive than living in the country side and in the country side you get to live, for the same money, in a villa with a pool and tons of land instead of an apartment with concrete views. After checking housing prices, this difference does not seem to be as great in Switzerland. Is that true?

jpatokal 13y ago
Switzerland is small and has a famously efficient train system, so it's common to live a fair distance from the city: I have friends who work in Geneva but live in Lausanne, work in Zurich but live in Rapperswil, etc. If you draw circles around the main cities depicting the diameter of how far you can get in one hour by train, there's not much "rural" land left.

huhtenberg 13y ago

Stop with this senseless FUD, will you. A cup of coffee in Starbucks may cost $6. A cup of (a better) coffee in any cafe 2-3 CHF. Can of Coke is about the same if bought in a touristy place, but in a grocery shop it's a 2L bottle that will be that much. > Cost of living is extremely high. It's not. Cost of luxurious living is extremely high. In Geneva, in Zurich, perhaps in Bern and Basel. But you drive 10 minutes out of these cities and you have people who earn 40K CHF and live safely and decently, while still working in Geneva, Zurich, Bern and Basel. Things do cost more than in other countries, on average, but then an average Swiss lives well enough not to ever need a Wallmart. (edit) You can downvote me all you want. I lived in Switzerland for few years, so $6 can of Coke is the Swiss version of bears on Moscow's streets - it's a cute bullshit.

ashray 13y ago
First of all, I didn't down vote you. Secondly, all I suggested was that the OP take cost of living into account for his calculations. This is hardly senseless considering that cost of living in most Swiss cities is higher than most tier 2 American cities. Swiss cities often rank at the top for most expensive cities in the world so yeah, I'd say cost of living is certainly on the high side. Of course they also rank at the top for quality of life but that's another side of the same coin. Lastly, my numbers may not be current or correct (last I went to Switzerland was July '13) but your tone is certainly rude and out of line. Sorry I didn't represent Swiss prices correctly, thanks for the correction.
- huhtenberg 13y ago
  My tone is out of line, huh? How about your entire comment is factually wrong and yet you picked an advisory tone for it. The coke doesn't cost 6 franks, nor the cost of living is "extremely high". Also, you should realize that people who might be interested in these 2500CHF will not be living in Zurich, which is more of an exception in terms of cost of living in Switzerland rather than the norm.
  - ashray 13y ago
    Do you have any citation to support your claim that Switzerland is not a high cost country ? A simple google search shows Switzerland as one of the most expensive countries in the world. Usually following Norway or Denmark. So why am I factually incorrect? I searched for 'worlds most expensive countries'. Maybe I did something wrong ? Of course I know everyone doesn't live in Zurich but the average cost of living is still relatively high outside of Zurich/Geneva. Also, I mentioned in my initial post that this is a good deal so we are in agreement for the most part.

handzhiev 13y ago

What stops you get your basic income and fly to East Europe every month (cheap flights available for less than $100) where you can live pretty well with this money?