6 ms·

AMD Posts A Horde Of New 3D GPU Documentation

121 points by samwilliams 13y ago

benjamincburns 13y ago
I wonder how much of this is "business as usual" for AMD's GPU team, and how much of it is in reaction to nVidia recently beginning to open up? My limited understanding is that AMD/ATI has been far more more open than nVidia for much longer, but if they see nVidia starting to open up, maybe they're lengthening their stride on these efforts? Either way, my inner optimist/FOSS fanboy is really hoping that there's a convergence of things happening right now (championed by Valve, I think) that will make GPUs become as open and well-documented as main processors. It's rare to see, but I get all excited any time openness is even a minor basis for competition.
- sho_hn 13y ago
  I'd assume "business as usual"; preparing a publication like this takes far, far longer than the time delta to nVidia's announcement allows for.
  - benjamincburns 13y ago
    I think the lead-time issue depends on how they document internally. If they provide 'first-class' documentation for their partners to consume which has already been sanitized of NDA-restricted disclosures, maybe all they need to do is remove the 'CONFIDENTIAL' header. Though to be fair, I'd be shocked if this was the case. Most companies don't do the IP sanitization bit, which is why NDAs in those types of industries are viral in the same way as the GPL.
    - kllrnohj 13y ago
      > If they provide 'first-class' documentation for their partners to consume which has already been sanitized of NDA-restricted disclosures, maybe all they need to do is remove the 'CONFIDENTIAL' header. What partners? The only ones writing AMD GPU drivers is AMD, and internal documentation tends to universally be crap.
      - nitrogen 13y ago
        AMD also supplies GPUs to all major console manufacturers.
      - eropple 13y ago
        > What partners? The only ones writing AMD GPU drivers is AMD, and internal documentation tends to universally be crap. Don't quote me on this, but it was my impression that vendors AMD's GPUs should have source access to the drivers.
- dman 13y ago
  Have you ever tried to get something released as OSS in a large company? Sun was a prime example - inspite of complete buy in from their CEO it took them eons to open source parts of Solaris. And I dont think till the very end they were able to get a completely bootstrapping release of solaris out.
- marcosdumay 13y ago
  It may have happened for the same reason, but one can not be a reaction to the other. People are speculating if NVidia started oppening their specs by Valve's request. If so, AMD could have received the same request.
- diydsp 13y ago
  At this time last year, AMD was preparing for a lay off in November (2012) in which they let a bunch of their open source GPU devs go. [1][2] [3] My projection is that this is an attempt to draw in the unpaid open source community. Both a smart and a dick move: they could have released this info while maintaining the paid positions, IMO. [1] "Did AMD shoot itself in the foot by laying off open-source talent? " http://www.networkworld.com/news/2012/110712-amd-open-source-264062.html http://www.networkworld.com/news/2012/110712-amd-open-source... [2] AMD shutters German Linux lab, gives devs the axe http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/11/07/amd_closes_german_osrc_lab/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/11/07/amd_closes_german_os... [3] AMD dismisses numerous open source developers http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/AMD-dismisses-numerous-open-source-developers-1745131.html http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/AMD-dismisses-numerou...
gtaylor 13y ago
I bought an ATI 5870 a few years ago. At the time, it was a pretty beefy card, and drives my three 23" monitors really well... in Windows. Late 2012 is when I found that enough bugs were fixed in the [now AMD] proprietary drivers to where I could get serious work done in Linux. The crashes were mostly fixed, but there are still lots of performance issues, as well as a lot of fun bugs (like my cursor randomly turning into a 20x50 block of randomly colored pixels when moving between monitors). It's been a dreadful experience. The AMD driver releases stopped coming with changelogs for about 6 months, and they still don't always release them (or when they do, they leave a lot out). When a new version of Xorg comes out, it takes them at least two months to add support (while nvidia often has support ready before release, or very shortly after). nvidia, even with their own issues, shows them up enough to make me envious. Intel is really taking things to a higher level with their drivers + OpenGL performance lately, too. If you have to use proprietary drivers (like I do for 3D/OpenGL), stay the heck away from AMD. They do an awful job with their Linux drivers. Linus likes to bitch at nvidia, but their binary Linux drivers are leagues better than AMD's. They've got issues, too, but are by far the lesser of two evils for higher end GPUs + Linux.
- dmm 13y ago
  Just use the in-kernel free drivers. They have improved immensely the past few years. The Radeon HD 5870 is called 'Evergreen', you can check out the feature support here: http://xorg.freedesktop.org/wiki/RadeonFeature http://xorg.freedesktop.org/wiki/RadeonFeature In my experience the free drivers have slightly slower 3d performance and much faster 2d performance.
  - tribaal 13y ago
    That matrix is impressively green! Thanks for sharing.
  - gtaylor 13y ago
    As mentioned in the initial comment, this isn't an option for me.
    - 13y ago
tobych 13y ago
A hoard, surely, rather than a horde. Hacker News readers are a horde. The newly-released documentation is a hoard. Assuming this is correct: http://grammarist.com/spelling/hoard-horde/ http://grammarist.com/spelling/hoard-horde/
kenbellows 13y ago
Anyone else disappointed that the GPU documentation isn't somehow rendered in 3D?
- Arelius 13y ago
  No.
twotwotwo 13y ago
Thanks Valve.
nkurz 13y ago
Direct links from http://www.botchco.com/agd5f/?p=58 http://www.botchco.com/agd5f/?p=58: AMD R6xx/R7xx 3D Register Reference: http://www.x.org/docs/AMD/R6xx_3D_Registers.pdf http://www.x.org/docs/AMD/R6xx_3D_Registers.pdf AMD R6xx/R7xx Acceleration: http://www.x.org/docs/AMD/R6xx_R7xx_3D.pdf http://www.x.org/docs/AMD/R6xx_R7xx_3D.pdf AMD Evergreen 3D Register Reference: http://www.x.org/docs/AMD/evergreen_3D_registers_v2.pdf http://www.x.org/docs/AMD/evergreen_3D_registers_v2.pdf AMD Cayman/Trinity 3D Register Reference: http://www.x.org/docs/AMD/cayman_3D_registers_v2.pdf http://www.x.org/docs/AMD/cayman_3D_registers_v2.pdf AMD Evergreen/Northern Islands Acceleration: http://www.x.org/docs/AMD/evergreen_cayman_programming_guide.pdf http://www.x.org/docs/AMD/evergreen_cayman_programming_guide... AMD Southern Islands 3D Register Reference: http://www.x.org/docs/AMD/SI_3D_registers.pdf http://www.x.org/docs/AMD/SI_3D_registers.pdf AMD Sea Islands 3D Register Reference: http://www.x.org/docs/AMD/CIK_3D_registers_v2.pdf http://www.x.org/docs/AMD/CIK_3D_registers_v2.pdf AMD Southern Islands/Sea Islands Acceleration: http://www.x.org/docs/AMD/si_programming_guide_v2.pdf http://www.x.org/docs/AMD/si_programming_guide_v2.pdf AMD HDA audio verbs: http://www.x.org/docs/AMD/AMD_HDA_verbs_v2.pdf http://www.x.org/docs/AMD/AMD_HDA_verbs_v2.pdf

121 points by samwilliams 13y ago

I wonder how much of this is "business as usual" for AMD's GPU team, and how much of it is in reaction to nVidia recently beginning to open up? My limited understanding is that AMD/ATI has been far more more open than nVidia for much longer, but if they see nVidia starting to open up, maybe they're lengthening their stride on these efforts? Either way, my inner optimist/FOSS fanboy is really hoping that there's a convergence of things happening right now (championed by Valve, I think) that will make GPUs become as open and well-documented as main processors. It's rare to see, but I get all excited any time openness is even a minor basis for competition.

sho_hn 13y ago
I'd assume "business as usual"; preparing a publication like this takes far, far longer than the time delta to nVidia's announcement allows for.
- benjamincburns 13y ago
  I think the lead-time issue depends on how they document internally. If they provide 'first-class' documentation for their partners to consume which has already been sanitized of NDA-restricted disclosures, maybe all they need to do is remove the 'CONFIDENTIAL' header. Though to be fair, I'd be shocked if this was the case. Most companies don't do the IP sanitization bit, which is why NDAs in those types of industries are viral in the same way as the GPL.
  - kllrnohj 13y ago
    > If they provide 'first-class' documentation for their partners to consume which has already been sanitized of NDA-restricted disclosures, maybe all they need to do is remove the 'CONFIDENTIAL' header. What partners? The only ones writing AMD GPU drivers is AMD, and internal documentation tends to universally be crap.
    - nitrogen 13y ago
      AMD also supplies GPUs to all major console manufacturers.
    - eropple 13y ago
      > What partners? The only ones writing AMD GPU drivers is AMD, and internal documentation tends to universally be crap. Don't quote me on this, but it was my impression that vendors AMD's GPUs should have source access to the drivers.
dman 13y ago
Have you ever tried to get something released as OSS in a large company? Sun was a prime example - inspite of complete buy in from their CEO it took them eons to open source parts of Solaris. And I dont think till the very end they were able to get a completely bootstrapping release of solaris out.
marcosdumay 13y ago
It may have happened for the same reason, but one can not be a reaction to the other. People are speculating if NVidia started oppening their specs by Valve's request. If so, AMD could have received the same request.
diydsp 13y ago
At this time last year, AMD was preparing for a lay off in November (2012) in which they let a bunch of their open source GPU devs go. [1][2] [3] My projection is that this is an attempt to draw in the unpaid open source community. Both a smart and a dick move: they could have released this info while maintaining the paid positions, IMO. [1] "Did AMD shoot itself in the foot by laying off open-source talent? " http://www.networkworld.com/news/2012/110712-amd-open-source-264062.html http://www.networkworld.com/news/2012/110712-amd-open-source... [2] AMD shutters German Linux lab, gives devs the axe http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/11/07/amd_closes_german_osrc_lab/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/11/07/amd_closes_german_os... [3] AMD dismisses numerous open source developers http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/AMD-dismisses-numerous-open-source-developers-1745131.html http://www.h-online.com/open/news/item/AMD-dismisses-numerou...

gtaylor 13y ago

I bought an ATI 5870 a few years ago. At the time, it was a pretty beefy card, and drives my three 23" monitors really well... in Windows. Late 2012 is when I found that enough bugs were fixed in the [now AMD] proprietary drivers to where I could get serious work done in Linux. The crashes were mostly fixed, but there are still lots of performance issues, as well as a lot of fun bugs (like my cursor randomly turning into a 20x50 block of randomly colored pixels when moving between monitors). It's been a dreadful experience. The AMD driver releases stopped coming with changelogs for about 6 months, and they still don't always release them (or when they do, they leave a lot out). When a new version of Xorg comes out, it takes them at least two months to add support (while nvidia often has support ready before release, or very shortly after). nvidia, even with their own issues, shows them up enough to make me envious. Intel is really taking things to a higher level with their drivers + OpenGL performance lately, too. If you have to use proprietary drivers (like I do for 3D/OpenGL), stay the heck away from AMD. They do an awful job with their Linux drivers. Linus likes to bitch at nvidia, but their binary Linux drivers are leagues better than AMD's. They've got issues, too, but are by far the lesser of two evils for higher end GPUs + Linux.

dmm 13y ago
Just use the in-kernel free drivers. They have improved immensely the past few years. The Radeon HD 5870 is called 'Evergreen', you can check out the feature support here: http://xorg.freedesktop.org/wiki/RadeonFeature http://xorg.freedesktop.org/wiki/RadeonFeature In my experience the free drivers have slightly slower 3d performance and much faster 2d performance.
- tribaal 13y ago
  That matrix is impressively green! Thanks for sharing.
- gtaylor 13y ago
  As mentioned in the initial comment, this isn't an option for me.
  - 13y ago

tobych 13y ago

A hoard, surely, rather than a horde. Hacker News readers are a horde. The newly-released documentation is a hoard. Assuming this is correct: http://grammarist.com/spelling/hoard-horde/ http://grammarist.com/spelling/hoard-horde/

kenbellows 13y ago

Anyone else disappointed that the GPU documentation isn't somehow rendered in 3D?

Arelius 13y ago
No.

twotwotwo 13y ago

Thanks Valve.

nkurz 13y ago

Direct links from http://www.botchco.com/agd5f/?p=58 http://www.botchco.com/agd5f/?p=58: AMD R6xx/R7xx 3D Register Reference: http://www.x.org/docs/AMD/R6xx_3D_Registers.pdf http://www.x.org/docs/AMD/R6xx_3D_Registers.pdf AMD R6xx/R7xx Acceleration: http://www.x.org/docs/AMD/R6xx_R7xx_3D.pdf http://www.x.org/docs/AMD/R6xx_R7xx_3D.pdf AMD Evergreen 3D Register Reference: http://www.x.org/docs/AMD/evergreen_3D_registers_v2.pdf http://www.x.org/docs/AMD/evergreen_3D_registers_v2.pdf AMD Cayman/Trinity 3D Register Reference: http://www.x.org/docs/AMD/cayman_3D_registers_v2.pdf http://www.x.org/docs/AMD/cayman_3D_registers_v2.pdf AMD Evergreen/Northern Islands Acceleration: http://www.x.org/docs/AMD/evergreen_cayman_programming_guide.pdf http://www.x.org/docs/AMD/evergreen_cayman_programming_guide... AMD Southern Islands 3D Register Reference: http://www.x.org/docs/AMD/SI_3D_registers.pdf http://www.x.org/docs/AMD/SI_3D_registers.pdf AMD Sea Islands 3D Register Reference: http://www.x.org/docs/AMD/CIK_3D_registers_v2.pdf http://www.x.org/docs/AMD/CIK_3D_registers_v2.pdf AMD Southern Islands/Sea Islands Acceleration: http://www.x.org/docs/AMD/si_programming_guide_v2.pdf http://www.x.org/docs/AMD/si_programming_guide_v2.pdf AMD HDA audio verbs: http://www.x.org/docs/AMD/AMD_HDA_verbs_v2.pdf http://www.x.org/docs/AMD/AMD_HDA_verbs_v2.pdf