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NSA critics Ilija Trojanov: German writer must not enter the U.S.
- vidarh 13y agoWhile it's worth giving attention to this, keep in mind that there's absolutely nothing new about the US denying entry to foreigners on political grounds: For decades people who were members of foreign political parties deemed "too left wing", were often routinely denied all kinds of visas, for example. What exactly the US government considers thought-crimes worthy of visa refusals have changed over the years, but the use of visa refusals as a tool to restrict access to government critical foreigners has been a constant.
- sveme 13y agoI guess that is the point: actions leading to a barring of entry seem to have been becoming less and less severe. Anyone knows how these no-entry lists are being compiled?
- reginaldjcooper 13y agoOf course not. My goodness, next you'll be wanting to see the source code on voting machines. How can we have a proper country if we let people know how it works?
- schrijver 13y agoCriticism of surveillance is not any more or less severe than all kinds of other ‘Non-American behaviour’ of the past, there just happens to be a larger overlap between this instance of ‘Non-American behaviour’ and the HN demographic. How exactly do the parents examples of being a left-wing, gay or anti-apartheid activist seem severe to you?
- hobs 13y agoAlso the surveillance state makes it much more obvious who is doing what, and how to block whom.
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- Zoepfli 13y agoApparently, for the US, the right to free speech only applies to US people, not the world. Same as with the right not to be spied upon, really. Sad...
- seanmcdirmid 13y agoI'm not even sure if free speech even applies to us Americans anymore, since immigration and the ability to board a plane to/from the states seems to not fall under any constitutional rights.
- EthanHeilman 13y agoWe still have free-speech zones in America. So free-speech in those areas also as the police say it is ok and you are willing to be locked in a cage. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_speech_zone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_speech_zone
- oellegaard 13y agoSo happy to live in a country-wide free-speech zone here in Denmark. I'm shocked that people must hide themselves behind fences to express their opinions.
- rwmj 13y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_and_freedom_of_the_press_in_Denmark https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_and_freedom_... It seems circumscribed, if that Wikipedia article is correct. Blasphemy laws are one worrying aspect. On the other hand, I'd rather have even that constitutional guarantee instead of the complete lack of any guaranteed freedom of speech that is the situation in the UK.
- captainmuon 13y agoThis is the most disturbing thing I've seen today. I wonder whether the people who invented this realize how Orwellian it sounds.
- tilsammans 13y agohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism
- dgellow 13y agoAre people still surprised ? The USA is definitely not a state of freedom.
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- Xylakant 13y agoit's not "The Congress" as in "The American Congress" but rather "a congress" as in "a meetup of people interested in german studies". Still bad, but a different thing.
- DoubleMalt 13y agoIt was a conference. Not the Congress. (Google translation artifact). Nevertheless very alarming.
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- Zoepfli 13y agoMy attempt at a good translation: NSA critic Ilija Trojanow: German writer not allowed to enter US Despite an invitation to a conference, german writer Ilija Trojanow was denied entry to the US - without reasoning. In the past, Trojanow signed a petition of protest against NSA surveillance. Hamburg - Writer Juli Zeh broke the news: Through Facebook, she passed on a message from her college Ilija Trojanow. According to it, Trojanow was denied entry into the US. "He's marrooned at the airport in Brasil and can't participate in a conference on german studies in the US", said Zeh. Ilija Trojanows' publisher Hanser confirmed this account upon request from Spiegel Online. Trojanows reported monday evening via SMS from Brasil "I was denied entry into the US today. Will be an arduous journey home". Juli Zeh linked the denial of entry with a protest against NSA surveillance she initiated. Zeh presented the german chancellery a petition with 65000 signatures on september 18. Trojanow was not present at the presentation, but he was one of the first signees, the Schöffling publisher coordinators told Spiegel Online. The writers alluded to a "historic attack on our democratic state under the rule of law". "Let's frame it in a positive light: Our commitment makes an impact. It is being noticed", writes Zeh on Facebook on the entry ban to her "friend and fellow activist". Zeh and Trojanow wrote a non-fiction book on internet surveillance called "attack on freedom" in 2009. Zeh continues: "Let's frame in a negative light: it's a farce. Pure paranoia. People sticking up for civil liberties are treated like public enemies". In the comments on her posting Zeh emphasizes that Trojanows' ESTA application was answered positively, so in her opinion there can't be a problem with his visa or a work permit issue. Ilija Trojanow, born 1965 in Bulgaria and escaped to Germany in 1971, received the Leipzig Book Fair Prize 2006 for his adventure novel "Der Weltensammler" (The Collector of Worlds). He held a honorific speech for nobel laureate Herta Müller at the Franz-Werfel human rights award. He was in Salvador de Bahia on invitation from the Goethe institute. He was supposed to talk about his latest novel "EisTau" (IceDew) on a conference of the German Studies Association in Denver. (Edit: congress -> conference)
- belorn 13y agoSo the congress invites someone, and the NSA branch steps in to block it by censoring the speaker at the border. I wonder whats next in this hollywood movie. Drone strike in central london to take out an embassy? A firewall blockade directed at news paper articles? Secret kill lists and torture? Maybe someone should sneak a telepresence robot to congress, give it a dark trench coat and a code name. This is Truth Teller congress members, let the robot speak!
- themanr 13y agoI'm in the uk and get a redirect loop from this page. Changing to .co.uk works http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=de&tl=en&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http://www.spiegel.de/kultur/gesellschaft/ilija-trojanow-nach-nsa-protest-einreise-in-die-usa-verweigert-a-925467.html http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=de&tl=en&prev=_t&...
- sveme 13y agoWhat's worst about this is that this seems way out of proportion. He signed (and co-authored I believe) a petition arguing against NSA surveillance out of concern for its effects on democracy - a move that is absolutely in agreement with democratic values. Is there anyone who could argue that barring his entry to the US is justified? I don't like hyperbole but this is indeed truly worrying; I would expect it from Russia and China, certainly not from the former "shining city upon a hill whose beacon light guides freedom-loving people everywhere."
- hannibal5 13y agoThere is nothing out of proportion here compared to previous decades. There is nothing out of ordinary in denying visa from someone writes and works against the national interest of US. Visas have been denied from communists, peace activists, greens, anti-apartheid activists and homosexuals in previous decades. Surveillance critics fit this group just fine.
- grey-area 13y agoin denying visa from someone writes and works against the national interest of US. The national interest of the US is congruent with the interests of the NSA? An interesting point of view, but not one I think you'd find majority support for in the US or elsewhere.
- hannibal5 13y agoMajority support is not what defines national interest. You are confusing political opinions to the workings of US government.
- kghose 13y agoHow do we know it was his political views and not some screw up with his paper work? How do we know this incident is true and not manufactured as part of a publicity stunt? I understand the communication is through his publisher, does he have a book in the works? I just feel it is important to ask questions, that's all.
- sveme 13y agoAccording to the article, his ESTA application (an electronic visa waiver program) had been approved before only to nevertheless be blocked. It does not seem to be an administrative error.
- captainmuon 13y agoThe problem is that he can't just call the embassy and ask why his entry was denied. They have a policy of not giving out information on entry denials.
- epo 13y agoWhat a feeble cop-out. Why do you feel it is important? After all if it is is important, you should be able to explain, in fact you are expected to do so.
- kghose 13y agoIt's important because we shouldn't be suckered into giving free publicity to a person. Regardless of what you think of the immigration process in the US, many people misuse tourist visas to overstay/work. The CBP often turn away people if they are suspicious that they might over stay their visa or commit other kinds of immigration fraud. I just don't know if this person was turned away like many other people and is raising a stink because they have some star power (and think they should be treated specially). Again, this is independent of how open you think borders should be, because then it comes under a different headline.
- kowdermeister 13y agoIn this case would there be a difference entering the US through the Canadian border or by airports?
- evadne 13y agoIf you’re refused by the pre-clearance facility you’re still screwed but you might get to pass thru immigration in the host country again. The CBP will just call the CBSA who will dispatch somebody to come and take you and re-scrutinize documents provided by the US officer. TL;DR: don’t get screwed.
- markus2012 13y agoYou'll find the same computer system in use no matter where you try to enter. If the computer says, 'deny' you're done.
- bckrasnow 13y agoI don't know why I still get surprised when the US government consistently screws up, either with surveillance or with finances
- lazyjones 13y agoIt seems that the Apparatchiks of the US regime deal with critics quickly and efficiently these days, the totalitarian laws are already employed as needed. It's only a bit cynical that the barred author had to flee from Eastern Bloc Bulgaria in 1971...
- w_t_payne 13y agoThe swibbles are already on back-order.
- w_t_payne 13y agoOoooh... somebody is feeling a bit touchy.
- w_t_payne 13y agoI meant the NSA, dammit.
- frank_boyd 13y agoThis is how you stop people from talking and discussing openly. Very effective.
- rb2k_ 13y agoWhat a horrible pice of writing... He was denied entry without explanation. That this has anything to do with some petition he signed at some point seems a bit far fetched. Also: A positive ESTA application doesn't mean anything. For Germans on the visa waiver, ESTA is just a quick online transaction that is good for several years. It doesn't actually mean that there aren't "any problems with the visa or work permit". If he doesn't have a German passport (came to Germany in 1971 with his parents from Bulgaria), I can see why somebody from Bulgaria coming to the US from Brazil might seem a bit strange. So far, this is all speculation and really not worth the read.
- jagermo 13y agothank you, that also crossed my mind. Sadly, Spiegel Online keeps getting worse and worse, especially since they hired former BILD "journalists".
- viraptor 13y ago> I can see why somebody from Bulgaria coming to the US from Brazil might seem a bit strange. Sorry, I don't. What qualifies as "strange"? Is that an official term? There are loads of people who travel via countries they don't live in. There are also many people who were born in countries that don't exist anymore - how strange is that?
- rb2k_ 13y ago"Strange" as in "a very small percentage of travelers"
- vidarh 13y agoThere are certainly degrees of "strange" that triggers various levels of scrutiny. I'm Norwegian. Live in England, and used to travel to California regularly on business. I never had any problems entering, the US thankfully. But I repeatedly tried to print my boarding pass online in advance and check in using machines at the airport. In London that always went smoothly. At SFO, it almost always caused me to be referred to the ticket counters due to some undefined "problem". The staff were equally baffled every time, and the only thing they could come up with was that the system flagged me because I was travelling to England with no onward ticket and no visa (don't need one, as Norway is in the EEA which gives me the same residency rights in the UK as EU citizens) - they at least claimed that their systems did not give them any reason. Mine was just a minor hassle, but I would be surprised if the systems "score" people based on tiny little unexpected deviations from the norm like that for various additional levels of attention. (I still printed the boarding passes every time, as whenever I couldn't check in, all I needed to do was look a bit baffled and walk over to the premium checkin and they'd get me processed very quickly)
- hannibal5 13y agoThere is nothing out of the ordinary here. Prior criminal convictions, affiliation with unsuitable political parties or organizations or poor character are valid justifications for denying entry according to US law. It has been used against communists, peace activists, anti-apartheid activists, greens and homosexuals in previous decades. Now it's surveillance critics who don't get in.
- dominotw 13y agoI remember answering if I was planning to become a prostitute in one of my visa applications.
- contingencies 13y agoSmacks of forethought.
- r0h1n 13y ago> There is nothing out of the ordinary here Sure there is. An (apparently) peaceful person from a friendly country was banned simply because she led an Internet signature campaign against a clandestine and borderline-rogue surveillance agency. How many other HNers would have signed a similar petition? > Prior criminal convictions, affiliation with unsuitable political parties or organizations or poor character are valid justifications for denying entry according to US law I don't see any of those being applicable in this case, at least as per the article. When intelligent, well-informed and progressive citizens reach the point that they don't see anything wrong in a government/regime trying to muzzle critics, simply because they can and they have done so in the past, we implicitly grant approval to the continuation of such tactics. The first step towards solving a problem is acknowledging you have one.
- hannibal5 13y agoNo. This is perfectly ordinary for US. If I had signed anti-apartheid petition, I might have been denied entry in the 80's. >borderline-rogue surveillance agency That's not the opinion of the government. It's the job of the people to change the policy of the government. NSA surveillance is government run activity and foreigners speaking against it can be denied visa. As forefinger I find the naivety of US citizens towards their government disturbing. NSA is not borderline-rogue as long as the White House and the Congress are on the same boat.
- DominikR 13y agoSo this basically means that if I sign some anti-surveillance petition, or join a anti-surveillance group on Facebook I can forget ever visiting the US for vacation (I'm living in Europe) Good to know, but I already signed a petition months ago. So no Yellowstone or Grand Canyon for me anytime soon. I wonder when they will start rejecting US citizens on flights within the US based on petitions signed.
- pavs 13y agoLand of the free and the brave.* *Some restrictions apply.
- nitid_name 13y agoNo Yellowstone anyway right now. Gubmint dun shut it down until the political fighting gets resolved.
- kitd 13y agoThe mental image of congressmen duking it out in the middle of Yellowstone has a certain appeal.
- toomuchtodo 13y agoYou can have all my tax money for this. National Park Thunderdome. "Get Your Shit Together 2013"
- rdtsc 13y agoQuite possible. Other people (non-famous) have had this happen after snide, critical or funny remarks on twitter and facebook.
- jgross206 13y agoCan you provide some examples?
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- bayesianhorse 13y agoImmigration laws have stupid consequences? No surprise these.
- forktheif 13y agoIs there any evidence of these two events actually being linked, or is it just the fact they both happened, and therefore must be connected?
- growupkids 13y agowas it an issue with ESTa visa waiver program? I'm looking at the eligibility website and it says that German citizens can use the program, but Bulgaria isn't on the list. Is he a German or Bulgarian citizen or national? Additionally, it states there are a lot of restrictions for using the visa waiver program that I imagine someone like him might object to, see the list below: https://esta.cbp.dhs.gov/esta/WebHelp/ESTA_Screen-Level_Online_Help_1.htm#vwp3 https://esta.cbp.dhs.gov/esta/WebHelp/ESTA_Screen-Level_Onli... It sounds like they need biometrics, and there are all kinds of restrictions on duration, destination, etc. is this program like TSA Pre in that it's seen as a "privilege" program in lue of getting an actual VIsa? I'm not saying this wasn't done for political reasons, but before we all jump to that conclusion is it possible this program, EStA, is just a mess of requirements that only works for people that fit a narrow definition of excluded? Again, just looking at the requirements it looks pretty stringent and it sounds like this is an alternative to a visa program. Reading the article on FAZ http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A//www.faz.net/aktuell/feuilleton/buecher/autoren/ilija-trojanows-einreiseverbot-willkuer-und-freiheit-12599490.html http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3... it sounds like American Airlines told him his option was to get a Visa. Is it possible that's what really happened here, and the leap to blaming this on the NSA is unwarranted? It certainly would be easier if you could just find out what the reason was for all this from a independent source.
- martin_k 13y agoTrojanow published his own account of the events here: http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.faz.net%2Faktuell%2Ffeuilleton%2Fbuecher%2Fautoren%2Filija-trojanows-einreiseverbot-willkuer-und-freiheit-12599490.html&act=url http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3... Apparently he had already been denied a work visa without explanation last year by the US consulate in Munich. However, that decision was apparently later reversed after protests from Washington University in St. Louis. Since that must have been before the Snowden leaks and NSA protests, I'd say it doubtful if those are really connected to his more recent refusal of entry. Edit: To be clear, I am not suggesting that his refusal was not politically motivated. But the original article suggests (or rather quotes author Juli Zeh on suggesting) a direct connection to the NSA protests and their petition against NSA surveillance.
- ksec 13y agoWhy is it that when any other countries doing the same, it will be heavily criticize and be named and shamed on nearly all sort of Newspaper and media. Yet US is no difference. And there is countless other examples. I am going to be very brave and say this. Americans, you cant blame people in other parts of the world hate you.
- znowi 13y agoWhen it happens in the US - it's to protect freedom. If it happens elsewhere - OMG! Human rights violation! Must send the troops to save the world :)