6 ms·

Why are Americans giving up their citizenship?

47 points by sim1066 13y ago

eschnou 13y ago
"Unlike other countries, Americans are taxed not only as residents of the US but also as citizens, wherever they live." Huh?? Just because you are a US citizen, you have to pay taxes to the US wherever you live? Is any other country in the world having such policies?
- dutchbrit 13y ago
  Yes, being a US citizen requires you to pay the US tax, even though you live in a different country, work in that country and already pay tax in that country. It's been like that for a long time already, pretty rediculous of you ask me!
  - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
    Note that you often don't get double taxed. They just want the difference between what you would pay in the USA vs. what you actually pay in country B, after $97k that is. If you are in a country with higher taxes than the states, which is most of the world actually, you won't be paying anything more (just watch out for HK, Singapore, and Switzerland).
    - capisce 13y ago
      Having to go through the form hell of filing US taxes seems like a tax in itself.
      - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
        Every year I spend a couple of hours on it, and I do my taxes by hand at that. The hardest part is figuring out where to find a post office to mail the forms out. They seem to change each year (I could also drop it off at the embassy I guess, but that would require 15 or 20 more minutes to get in the front door).
- ekianjo 13y ago
  France was also trying to do that recently, since the government there spends way more than they can hope to "steal" from their citizens. They thought it was a good idea to try to tax citizens living abroad (on top of the taxes paid abroad). If they ever did that, I can tell you a number of French citizens living abroad would just drop their French passport without hesitation.
  - gamblor956 13y ago
    A number of French citizens, including nearly a dozen billionaires, actually did renounce their French citizenship over the proposed tax scheme. Gerarad Depardieu is the most famous of them, but not the wealthiest. One of the Facebook founders similarly renounced his U.S. citizenship prior to its IPO.
  - pekk 13y ago
    Taxation is not theft, it is lawful. The developed world is founded on taxes.
    - Frozenlock 13y ago
      And war isn't murdering people? Just because something has the backing of a government doesn't change the definition of words. You can argue who is the owner of the money being taxed, but you can't say something is or isn't because it's lawful.
      - wmt 13y ago
        My ISP insists that I must allow them to steal my money on monthly basis or they would cut my Internet! Taxes are not theft, but a membership fee. Its perks are roads, fire department, schools, laws and law enforcement, protection from foreign armies and basically keeping the society together.
        Afforess 13y ago
        Except your argument makes no sense if you DONT LIVE IN AMERICA. If you pay US Taxes but live elsewhere, you are in fact getting robbed. Your local and government services are not provided by America, you get almost no representation from America, and yet you pay full taxes. Complete highway robbery.
- sipior 13y ago
  Yes, although there is a high deductible (~$80k, as I recall). It's never been something I needed to worry about, but FATCA most definitely will be. I don't know the answer to your last question, but I've never personally heard of another nation with similar policies.
  - bsullivan01 13y ago
    Do you still have to file US taxes though? Say you make $60K in Germany, well under the deductible, and do not file US taxes for 10 years. Is there a penalty just for not filing? penalties can cripple you.
    - sipior 13y ago
      Yes, I believe you are still obligated to file. Not sure how rigidly that's policed, though.
- ronilan 13y ago
  According to Wikipedia Eritrea also has a citizenship based tax system. They do however use the metric system over there. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_taxation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_taxation
- brudgers 13y ago
  US citizens living abroad are able to avail themselves of services through embassies and consulates for ordinary problems and call upon the USMC etc. for assistance with extraordinary ones.
  - Lewisham 13y ago
    Are you trying to say that US citizens abroad are paying for the services of their embassy? That's crazy. Every expat citizen from any country is offered help from their home country's embassy, and they do it without citizen-based taxation. I could walk into the British consulate in San Francisco tomorrow and expect help, and I haven't paid taxes in the UK for 5 years now.
  - yardie 13y ago
    If that is what the embassies and consulates are for than I wouldn't have a problem with that. At the moment I have to call a number to make an appointment and get shaked down by consulate security to get in to file an announcement of birth. I also have to pay a fee for that same announcement. I think you are under the impression US embassies are a country club that expats just go to and have a cocktail from time to time.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
- nohuck13 13y ago
  In practice, the US has lots of bilateral income tax treaties [1] that prevent expats' getting doubly taxed. For example, I'm an American living in London but I don't pay US taxes for work done here because the tax rate is higher here and by treaty, the UK gets first crack at me. I know a few Americans in (low-tax) Singapore who have to pay Singapore taxes, then pay the on top of that to the US government up to the level they would have been taxed if living in the US. I get extra pain when I go on business trips to the states, which the US doesn't count as being foreign work. So every year I have to fill in a spreadsheet of all the days I worked in each country, and subtract the US days from my tax treaty credits. I have to do the same thing in reverse for the HMRC in the UK. My least favorite part of being an expat :) [1] http://www.rumbaklaw.com/resources-and-tools/us-federal-tax-resources/countries-with-and-without-income-tax-treaties-with-the-u-s/ http://www.rumbaklaw.com/resources-and-tools/us-federal-tax-...
jandrewrogers 13y ago
This has been the case for some time and has been getting worse year after year. It is pretty shameful the extent to which the US tries to attach itself to the income and wealth of people who are not even living in the country solely because they are American citizens. In some cases, compliance with US tax laws (even though not in the US) are in direct conflict with laws in jurisdictions where people actually reside. In essence, a US citizen is indentured to the US state regardless of where they live. US law should not have jurisdiction beyond the border. It is creating a growing amount of complications for US citizens that are not within US jurisdiction but which can be held criminally liable for not following US laws even when those laws are in conflict with local laws where they actually live. The indifference of the US government to the consequences to US citizens of their overreach is typical these days.
- pekk 13y ago
  Payment of one's taxes is not the same as, or equivalent to, indentured servitude. Or slavery.
  - binarymax 13y ago
    No, but it is extortion
    - bobwaycott 13y ago
      No, it is not.
      - ekianjo 13y ago
        It is. No matter how you'd like to see it. The State has no legitimacy over your life and your earnings. It did not do anything to deserve it. This misconception comes from "Monarchy by Divine Right" from Old Europe, where it was your duty before God to support your King with your earnings. It has become more and more of an extortion as the amount seized by your rulers far exceeds (in percentage) what was paid during the Middle Ages.
Aloisius 13y ago
This doesn't make sense to me. If you give up your citizenship, then presumably you have citizenship elsewhere, so why not just open a bank account under your foreign citizenship? How is the bank to know? The only thing I can think of is that maybe people are avoiding taxes in the US and their adopted country as well. After all, many countries Americans move to have such high tax rates that after deductions, their US tax liability would be quite small.
- UnoriginalGuy 13y ago
  Replying before reading the article just wastes everyone's time. PS - The answers to all of these questions is contained within the article.
  - Aloisius 13y ago
    I read the article. It talks about Facta and then tries to link it to people complaining about how expensive it is to file tax returns, but the two aren't linked unless you weren't reporting your real income. Americans have always had to file taxes while living abroad. The tax laws have been extremely complicated for decades. Facta isn't changing that. FTA: "Fatca provisions impose no new obligations on US citizens living abroad... US taxpayers, including US citizens living abroad, are required to comply with US tax laws," he says. No, this sounds more like people who might have fudged some numbers now worrying that the IRS is going to find out and realizing that their citizenship isn't worth the yearly bill.
    - Lewisham 13y ago
      It said that people were not so worried about making sure their tax return was exactly correct. Now they are, so you need to hire better tax lawyers than you did before. I take exception to your characterization of "fudging numbers". We all fudge the numbers of our tax returns, even when filing in the US. How many people really do anything but use TurboTax and hope for the best? I know I do. I can't possibly know everything about US tax law. I hope TurboTax does, but I have no guarantee, and it's my ass on the line if it screws up. I see no difference between that and the expats mentioned in the article, except the help they have to buy in is far more expensive.
te_chris 13y ago
So the US has no concept of tax residency?
- thaumasiotes 13y ago
  It does. However, in principle all US citizens are obligated to pay US taxes no matter where their residence or tax residence may be. There are a couple ways to be credited for tax paid abroad.
guard-of-terra 13y ago
Whoa, whoa, US can tell other countries' financial institutions to report to IRS "or else"? I think the world should be shelling DC, I mean, forget Iran and Syria, right?
- pekk 13y ago
  It's a diplomatic issue what countries report to each other. And your suggestion is mass murder?
  - guard-of-terra 13y ago
    Well, now you agree Iraq invasion was a mass murder? Once USA extort money going from country A to country B for failing to comply, it's no longer a diplomatic issue, that's an international crime. And it was from the day one - USA threatening financial institutions in other countries, giving orders to them directly, that's audaceous.
    - geoka9 13y ago
      As I understand it, the only way the USG can enforce those orders is if the financial institution has a branch/subsidiary in the US. If they don't, I think they are free to ignore the requirement.
      - NonEUCitizen 13y ago
        I heard it tries to go one step beyond that. If Deutsche Bank has operations in the US, it falls under FATCA. BUT it is also required to not do business with some small German bank that has no operation in the US that does not comply with FATCA; i.e. DB is used to coerce the small German bank with no US operation to report its American customers in Germany to the US.
        geoka9 13y ago
        This is really evil.
ari_ 13y ago
There are multiple issues here, and maybe one real but complicated solution besides getting rid of US Citizenship: US Citizens are taxed on their income by the US regardless of where it was sourced and regardless of where they live. There are exclusions for foreign earned income up $97,600 in 2013 [1], but that does not exempt you from FILING the 1040 and whatever else. In addition the US has tax treaties [2] with various countries that dictate who gets first right to tax, based on various criteria. Remember treaties trump internal law. None of these exempt you from filing a return, even if you owe no tax to Uncle Sam. Then there's the FBAR[3], which is actually a US FinCen form that is administered by the IRS and must be filed by June 30 of each year. It's for people who either have or maintain "signature authority" on bank accounts with a combined value of over $10,000 in the previous year. Finally there is now FATCA [4], which imposes new reporting requirements on both US persons and Banks. If you live overseas the amount required to report is quite high, but it's still more reporting. For banks it's a royal PIA and many banks will not turn you away if you are a US Citizen (this is anecdotal, I Don't have numbers). The problem is that the affected parties, US Citizens living abroad, have no real franchise in congress. That's because you vote in Federal Elections based on your last state of residence, which means that your Senator could care less about you. The solution: We need about 300,000 expats to move back to Wyoming for a while. Once they decide that they no longer like Wyoming and want to move back overseas, they will vote in Federal elections in Wyoming. The expats will then have a voice in congress and be able to have some influence.. [1].http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Foreign-Earned-Income-Exclusion http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Forei... [2]http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/International-Businesses/United-States-Income-Tax-Treaties---A-to-Z http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/International-Businesses/Unite... [3]http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Report-of-Foreign-Bank-and-Financial-Accounts-%28FBAR%29 http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employ...
- Afforess 13y ago
  Couldn't care less Could care less means they care some, and theoretically could care less than they already care. Couldn't care less means they already don't care at all.
cromwellian 13y ago
If you want to live abroad and pay no US taxes, shouldn't one also give up rights to any entitlement services from the US government during that period? Otherwise, US tax payers are subsidizing free riders. If I'm a US citizen, but spend my whole life working in another country, should I be entitled to draw social security checks from the US? This would seem to create a moral hazard, as if you could find a tax shelter jurisdiction, you could work there, pay little to no taxes, and still cost the US government to support you.
- bsullivan01 13y ago
  If I'm a US citizen, but spend my whole life working in another country, should I be entitled to draw social security checks from the US? You are NOT entitled and you will NOT draw jack from Social Security--unless you paid in for at least 10 years. Then, that is your money. If you move to US and are dirt poor, I suppose you may get some state aid, medicaid etc but that's a basic right to anyone that lives there. It probably balances out as many will retire, say to Mexico, and not use those services.
  - cromwellian 13y ago
    Social Security is not a savings account. Even if you paid in for 10 years, you can easily draw more than you put in.
    - bsullivan01 13y ago
      Social Security is not a savings account. Even if you paid in for 10 years, you can easily draw more than you put in. Or you can die while the first check is still in the mail. That's the system the Fed set up
- lgbr 13y ago
  Generally, government retirement programs aren't really tied to citizenship. You have to have contributed to social security for a number of years to receive benefits. I'm a US citizen, but my income is German, so I will ultimately receive German retirement benefits. Living abroad, there are few benefits I'm actually entitled to. In some third world nations, if I'm arrested, then I could receive help at the embassy's expense. But I live in a first world country. I receive zero benefits from the US government. I can't think of a single service the US government provides me. In fact, they hold a monopoly on many of the services I need. If I simply want to notarize a form, I have to get to a consulate and then pay $50 (something I get for free in the US). And yet I have to file taxes and sometimes PAY taxes. And here's an even worse bit: I get exempted from paying on the first ~$90k of foreign earned income, great. But in order to get that benefit, I'm not allowed to spend more than 30 days in any year in the US. That just means I'm not going to visit my home country at all, because if I visit family for 29 days, and later in the year I need to come back home for a funeral or other emergency, well, that would be a trip that could cost upwards of $20k in US taxes.
scottjad 13y ago
One thing not mentioned in the article, "Renunciation of U.S. citizenship was free until July 2010, at which time a fee of $450 was established." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renunciation_of_citizenship#United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renunciation_of_citizenship#Uni...
- john_b 13y ago
  Is this effectively a fee for having a US embassy process paperwork on your behalf, or are they actually trying to charge a fee for individuals to renounce their citizenship? It seems to me that the whole idea of renouncing one's citizenship is to sever all ties previously held to the country and assume the status of a foreigner in the eyes of that country. How they would collect that $450 if that is the case is beyond me.
deadfish 13y ago
Guys over the pond... time for another tea party? 'taxation without representation'? ...'taxation without services'?
tokenadult 13y ago
"1,131 cases to 189 in 2012. It's still a small proportion of the estimated six million Americans abroad" Yes, I would say that 0.019 percent of the passport-holding population currently living abroad (presumably biased toward the more wealthy passport holders) is a small proportion indeed. What is the comparable figure for people from other countries who renounce their citizenship each year to become naturalized United States citizens? It is surely much higher.

47 points by sim1066 13y ago

"Unlike other countries, Americans are taxed not only as residents of the US but also as citizens, wherever they live." Huh?? Just because you are a US citizen, you have to pay taxes to the US wherever you live? Is any other country in the world having such policies?

dutchbrit 13y ago
Yes, being a US citizen requires you to pay the US tax, even though you live in a different country, work in that country and already pay tax in that country. It's been like that for a long time already, pretty rediculous of you ask me!
- seanmcdirmid 13y ago
  Note that you often don't get double taxed. They just want the difference between what you would pay in the USA vs. what you actually pay in country B, after $97k that is. If you are in a country with higher taxes than the states, which is most of the world actually, you won't be paying anything more (just watch out for HK, Singapore, and Switzerland).
  - capisce 13y ago
    Having to go through the form hell of filing US taxes seems like a tax in itself.
    - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
      Every year I spend a couple of hours on it, and I do my taxes by hand at that. The hardest part is figuring out where to find a post office to mail the forms out. They seem to change each year (I could also drop it off at the embassy I guess, but that would require 15 or 20 more minutes to get in the front door).
ekianjo 13y ago
France was also trying to do that recently, since the government there spends way more than they can hope to "steal" from their citizens. They thought it was a good idea to try to tax citizens living abroad (on top of the taxes paid abroad). If they ever did that, I can tell you a number of French citizens living abroad would just drop their French passport without hesitation.
- gamblor956 13y ago
  A number of French citizens, including nearly a dozen billionaires, actually did renounce their French citizenship over the proposed tax scheme. Gerarad Depardieu is the most famous of them, but not the wealthiest. One of the Facebook founders similarly renounced his U.S. citizenship prior to its IPO.
- pekk 13y ago
  Taxation is not theft, it is lawful. The developed world is founded on taxes.
  - Frozenlock 13y ago
    And war isn't murdering people? Just because something has the backing of a government doesn't change the definition of words. You can argue who is the owner of the money being taxed, but you can't say something is or isn't because it's lawful.
    - wmt 13y ago
      My ISP insists that I must allow them to steal my money on monthly basis or they would cut my Internet! Taxes are not theft, but a membership fee. Its perks are roads, fire department, schools, laws and law enforcement, protection from foreign armies and basically keeping the society together.
      - Afforess 13y ago
        Except your argument makes no sense if you DONT LIVE IN AMERICA. If you pay US Taxes but live elsewhere, you are in fact getting robbed. Your local and government services are not provided by America, you get almost no representation from America, and yet you pay full taxes. Complete highway robbery.
sipior 13y ago
Yes, although there is a high deductible (~$80k, as I recall). It's never been something I needed to worry about, but FATCA most definitely will be. I don't know the answer to your last question, but I've never personally heard of another nation with similar policies.
- bsullivan01 13y ago
  Do you still have to file US taxes though? Say you make $60K in Germany, well under the deductible, and do not file US taxes for 10 years. Is there a penalty just for not filing? penalties can cripple you.
  - sipior 13y ago
    Yes, I believe you are still obligated to file. Not sure how rigidly that's policed, though.
ronilan 13y ago
According to Wikipedia Eritrea also has a citizenship based tax system. They do however use the metric system over there. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_taxation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_taxation
brudgers 13y ago
US citizens living abroad are able to avail themselves of services through embassies and consulates for ordinary problems and call upon the USMC etc. for assistance with extraordinary ones.
- Lewisham 13y ago
  Are you trying to say that US citizens abroad are paying for the services of their embassy? That's crazy. Every expat citizen from any country is offered help from their home country's embassy, and they do it without citizen-based taxation. I could walk into the British consulate in San Francisco tomorrow and expect help, and I haven't paid taxes in the UK for 5 years now.
- yardie 13y ago
  If that is what the embassies and consulates are for than I wouldn't have a problem with that. At the moment I have to call a number to make an appointment and get shaked down by consulate security to get in to file an announcement of birth. I also have to pay a fee for that same announcement. I think you are under the impression US embassies are a country club that expats just go to and have a cocktail from time to time.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
nohuck13 13y ago
In practice, the US has lots of bilateral income tax treaties [1] that prevent expats' getting doubly taxed. For example, I'm an American living in London but I don't pay US taxes for work done here because the tax rate is higher here and by treaty, the UK gets first crack at me. I know a few Americans in (low-tax) Singapore who have to pay Singapore taxes, then pay the on top of that to the US government up to the level they would have been taxed if living in the US. I get extra pain when I go on business trips to the states, which the US doesn't count as being foreign work. So every year I have to fill in a spreadsheet of all the days I worked in each country, and subtract the US days from my tax treaty credits. I have to do the same thing in reverse for the HMRC in the UK. My least favorite part of being an expat :) [1] http://www.rumbaklaw.com/resources-and-tools/us-federal-tax-resources/countries-with-and-without-income-tax-treaties-with-the-u-s/ http://www.rumbaklaw.com/resources-and-tools/us-federal-tax-...

jandrewrogers 13y ago

This has been the case for some time and has been getting worse year after year. It is pretty shameful the extent to which the US tries to attach itself to the income and wealth of people who are not even living in the country solely because they are American citizens. In some cases, compliance with US tax laws (even though not in the US) are in direct conflict with laws in jurisdictions where people actually reside. In essence, a US citizen is indentured to the US state regardless of where they live. US law should not have jurisdiction beyond the border. It is creating a growing amount of complications for US citizens that are not within US jurisdiction but which can be held criminally liable for not following US laws even when those laws are in conflict with local laws where they actually live. The indifference of the US government to the consequences to US citizens of their overreach is typical these days.

pekk 13y ago
Payment of one's taxes is not the same as, or equivalent to, indentured servitude. Or slavery.
- binarymax 13y ago
  No, but it is extortion
  - bobwaycott 13y ago
    No, it is not.
    - ekianjo 13y ago
      It is. No matter how you'd like to see it. The State has no legitimacy over your life and your earnings. It did not do anything to deserve it. This misconception comes from "Monarchy by Divine Right" from Old Europe, where it was your duty before God to support your King with your earnings. It has become more and more of an extortion as the amount seized by your rulers far exceeds (in percentage) what was paid during the Middle Ages.

Aloisius 13y ago

This doesn't make sense to me. If you give up your citizenship, then presumably you have citizenship elsewhere, so why not just open a bank account under your foreign citizenship? How is the bank to know? The only thing I can think of is that maybe people are avoiding taxes in the US and their adopted country as well. After all, many countries Americans move to have such high tax rates that after deductions, their US tax liability would be quite small.

UnoriginalGuy 13y ago
Replying before reading the article just wastes everyone's time. PS - The answers to all of these questions is contained within the article.
- Aloisius 13y ago
  I read the article. It talks about Facta and then tries to link it to people complaining about how expensive it is to file tax returns, but the two aren't linked unless you weren't reporting your real income. Americans have always had to file taxes while living abroad. The tax laws have been extremely complicated for decades. Facta isn't changing that. FTA: "Fatca provisions impose no new obligations on US citizens living abroad... US taxpayers, including US citizens living abroad, are required to comply with US tax laws," he says. No, this sounds more like people who might have fudged some numbers now worrying that the IRS is going to find out and realizing that their citizenship isn't worth the yearly bill.
  - Lewisham 13y ago
    It said that people were not so worried about making sure their tax return was exactly correct. Now they are, so you need to hire better tax lawyers than you did before. I take exception to your characterization of "fudging numbers". We all fudge the numbers of our tax returns, even when filing in the US. How many people really do anything but use TurboTax and hope for the best? I know I do. I can't possibly know everything about US tax law. I hope TurboTax does, but I have no guarantee, and it's my ass on the line if it screws up. I see no difference between that and the expats mentioned in the article, except the help they have to buy in is far more expensive.

te_chris 13y ago

So the US has no concept of tax residency?

thaumasiotes 13y ago
It does. However, in principle all US citizens are obligated to pay US taxes no matter where their residence or tax residence may be. There are a couple ways to be credited for tax paid abroad.

guard-of-terra 13y ago

Whoa, whoa, US can tell other countries' financial institutions to report to IRS "or else"? I think the world should be shelling DC, I mean, forget Iran and Syria, right?

pekk 13y ago
It's a diplomatic issue what countries report to each other. And your suggestion is mass murder?
- guard-of-terra 13y ago
  Well, now you agree Iraq invasion was a mass murder? Once USA extort money going from country A to country B for failing to comply, it's no longer a diplomatic issue, that's an international crime. And it was from the day one - USA threatening financial institutions in other countries, giving orders to them directly, that's audaceous.
  - geoka9 13y ago
    As I understand it, the only way the USG can enforce those orders is if the financial institution has a branch/subsidiary in the US. If they don't, I think they are free to ignore the requirement.
    - NonEUCitizen 13y ago
      I heard it tries to go one step beyond that. If Deutsche Bank has operations in the US, it falls under FATCA. BUT it is also required to not do business with some small German bank that has no operation in the US that does not comply with FATCA; i.e. DB is used to coerce the small German bank with no US operation to report its American customers in Germany to the US.
      - geoka9 13y ago
        This is really evil.

ari_ 13y ago

There are multiple issues here, and maybe one real but complicated solution besides getting rid of US Citizenship: US Citizens are taxed on their income by the US regardless of where it was sourced and regardless of where they live. There are exclusions for foreign earned income up $97,600 in 2013 [1], but that does not exempt you from FILING the 1040 and whatever else. In addition the US has tax treaties [2] with various countries that dictate who gets first right to tax, based on various criteria. Remember treaties trump internal law. None of these exempt you from filing a return, even if you owe no tax to Uncle Sam. Then there's the FBAR[3], which is actually a US FinCen form that is administered by the IRS and must be filed by June 30 of each year. It's for people who either have or maintain "signature authority" on bank accounts with a combined value of over $10,000 in the previous year. Finally there is now FATCA [4], which imposes new reporting requirements on both US persons and Banks. If you live overseas the amount required to report is quite high, but it's still more reporting. For banks it's a royal PIA and many banks will not turn you away if you are a US Citizen (this is anecdotal, I Don't have numbers). The problem is that the affected parties, US Citizens living abroad, have no real franchise in congress. That's because you vote in Federal Elections based on your last state of residence, which means that your Senator could care less about you. The solution: We need about 300,000 expats to move back to Wyoming for a while. Once they decide that they no longer like Wyoming and want to move back overseas, they will vote in Federal elections in Wyoming. The expats will then have a voice in congress and be able to have some influence.. [1].http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Foreign-Earned-Income-Exclusion http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Forei... [2]http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/International-Businesses/United-States-Income-Tax-Treaties---A-to-Z http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/International-Businesses/Unite... [3]http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Report-of-Foreign-Bank-and-Financial-Accounts-%28FBAR%29 http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employ...

Afforess 13y ago
Couldn't care less Could care less means they care some, and theoretically could care less than they already care. Couldn't care less means they already don't care at all.

cromwellian 13y ago

If you want to live abroad and pay no US taxes, shouldn't one also give up rights to any entitlement services from the US government during that period? Otherwise, US tax payers are subsidizing free riders. If I'm a US citizen, but spend my whole life working in another country, should I be entitled to draw social security checks from the US? This would seem to create a moral hazard, as if you could find a tax shelter jurisdiction, you could work there, pay little to no taxes, and still cost the US government to support you.

bsullivan01 13y ago
If I'm a US citizen, but spend my whole life working in another country, should I be entitled to draw social security checks from the US? You are NOT entitled and you will NOT draw jack from Social Security--unless you paid in for at least 10 years. Then, that is your money. If you move to US and are dirt poor, I suppose you may get some state aid, medicaid etc but that's a basic right to anyone that lives there. It probably balances out as many will retire, say to Mexico, and not use those services.
- cromwellian 13y ago
  Social Security is not a savings account. Even if you paid in for 10 years, you can easily draw more than you put in.
  - bsullivan01 13y ago
    Social Security is not a savings account. Even if you paid in for 10 years, you can easily draw more than you put in. Or you can die while the first check is still in the mail. That's the system the Fed set up
lgbr 13y ago
Generally, government retirement programs aren't really tied to citizenship. You have to have contributed to social security for a number of years to receive benefits. I'm a US citizen, but my income is German, so I will ultimately receive German retirement benefits. Living abroad, there are few benefits I'm actually entitled to. In some third world nations, if I'm arrested, then I could receive help at the embassy's expense. But I live in a first world country. I receive zero benefits from the US government. I can't think of a single service the US government provides me. In fact, they hold a monopoly on many of the services I need. If I simply want to notarize a form, I have to get to a consulate and then pay $50 (something I get for free in the US). And yet I have to file taxes and sometimes PAY taxes. And here's an even worse bit: I get exempted from paying on the first ~$90k of foreign earned income, great. But in order to get that benefit, I'm not allowed to spend more than 30 days in any year in the US. That just means I'm not going to visit my home country at all, because if I visit family for 29 days, and later in the year I need to come back home for a funeral or other emergency, well, that would be a trip that could cost upwards of $20k in US taxes.

scottjad 13y ago

One thing not mentioned in the article, "Renunciation of U.S. citizenship was free until July 2010, at which time a fee of $450 was established." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renunciation_of_citizenship#United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renunciation_of_citizenship#Uni...

john_b 13y ago
Is this effectively a fee for having a US embassy process paperwork on your behalf, or are they actually trying to charge a fee for individuals to renounce their citizenship? It seems to me that the whole idea of renouncing one's citizenship is to sever all ties previously held to the country and assume the status of a foreigner in the eyes of that country. How they would collect that $450 if that is the case is beyond me.

deadfish 13y ago

Guys over the pond... time for another tea party? 'taxation without representation'? ...'taxation without services'?

tokenadult 13y ago

"1,131 cases to 189 in 2012. It's still a small proportion of the estimated six million Americans abroad" Yes, I would say that 0.019 percent of the passport-holding population currently living abroad (presumably biased toward the more wealthy passport holders) is a small proportion indeed. What is the comparable figure for people from other countries who renounce their citizenship each year to become naturalized United States citizens? It is surely much higher.