9 ms·

The Surface 2

87 points by kposehn 13y ago

RyJones 13y ago
I've been happy with my Surface Pro; the two changes I'm most looking forward to are the docking station and Haswell. The extra pixel density is a nice-to-have, but being able to pop it in and out of a docking station is killer. There are some other minor things I'd like addressed (the impossible-to-use microSD slot, for one. The always lost stylus is another), but I'll rebuy and probably hand the Surface Pro on to the kids.
- Fuzzwah 13y ago
  Are you using it for anything in particular which benefits from the touch input? If so, is the stylus an important positive?
  - nigelsampson 13y ago
    I like the stylus for scribbling notes / impromptu architecture diagrams in one note, especially in meetings. I definitely view it as an ultrabook replacement. My only major gripe is that it's not a comfortable machine for on the lap work compared to a proper laptop.
    - r00fus 13y ago
      Could this be fixed with some of those iPad cases with built-in keyboards (except, of course, made for Surface)?
      - nigelsampson 13y ago
        Potentially, because the join between the type cover and tablet is obviously flexible it moves a lot when laying on a non uniform surface (my thighs). Also because of it's width I feel like I need to sit with my knees together to try and balance it, trying on one leg feels stupidly awkward.
  - jgon 13y ago
    I own a surface pro and bought it particularly for the stylus and touch input. I tend to take a lot of notes at work, and also as I am working on side projects and one day I took a step back and looked at my desk and said "Is it really 2013 and I am pretty much scraping away at dead trees with a piece of metal dipped in ink like a caveman!?". I had notes spread out over dozens of binders, notebooks, engineering pads, etc, etc. How is this still a thing?! I also lost a bunch of notes from my schooling simply because the box they were in got lost. It felt to me like the equivalent of conducting all of my correspondence via paper letters, and keeping them in boxes in the basement. Of course, instead I do it through email, all nicely searchable at the drop of a hat. So the first thing I will say is that OneNote and the pen are a great writing experience. I do kind of miss the feedback of a pen against paper, but the "inking" in OneNote is top-notch, somehow looking even better than my regular writing. The response is really quick as well, which makes a big difference in feeling like you are actually writing instead of watching a line chase your pen around the screen. I've tried the Galaxy Note 10.1's stylus and S-Note and it is nowhere near as good. Syncing my notes to the Microsoft cloud is of course an added bonus for easy backup. That said, the widescreen aspect ratio was pretty dumb, especially for something billed as a device for being productive. I really can't understand it from any direction, I mean writing a document will be worse, editing photos is probably worse, I guess maybe people editing video will be happy? A better, wider aspect ratio closer to paper would be a serious improvement. At the end of the day however, I am able to take notes and do sketches, designs, etc, in a way that has a great writing "feel", offers search via really good text recognition, and offers seamless backup. I got mine discounted at a conference, so I can't say if I'd pay $900 for the ability to do this, but if I was back in University it would be an absolute no brainer. You probably won't find a better "writing" experience on the market, and if you do a lot of that then I recommend it.
    - mikestew 13y ago
      "How is this still a thing?!" Because the alternative costs $900 and doesn't fit in your pocket. Oh, I get what you're saying, I loved OneNote back when I had the old TabletPC. It's the best thing going, IMO. But I'm not spending that kind of money to run an OS I have no other use for, just to take notes. Make a $300 machine with a good digitizer that runs nothing but OneNote and I'd buy two.
  - RyJones 13y ago
    Usually, I don't need the stylus; I'm using the keyboard and touchpad. However, when I do need it, I can't find it because it attaches where the power cord attaches, so I'm always removing it and setting it down, then forgetting to pick the stylus up. If they had a place to dock it on the top edge, that would be great. When my daughter uses my Surface, she uses it as a WACOM replacement, so she needs (and finds) the stylus.
- Casseres 13y ago
  What about the microSD slot makes it impossible to use? (I'm thinking about getting a Surface Pro 2.)
  - RyJones 13y ago
    The angle of the edge makes insertion tricky. The lack of visible indicator as to which direction is correct; It would be nice if there was a little glyph showing the expected orientation.
    - Casseres 13y ago
      Okay, thanks.
breckinloggins 13y ago
I've often wondered why Apple doesn't have an "iPad Pro" that includes a Wacom or Wacom-like stylus system. I know that Apple is very much "no stylus" and I'm positive that was the right move for most uses, but there seems to be an obvious market here for creative types that need a real stylus (as in tip angle detection, pressure sensitivity, on-stylus buttons, etc).
- nemothekid 13y ago
  If I had to guess, the market isn't large enough nor or are the margins high enough for Apple to actually care. Aside from the Mac Pro, Apple seems allergic to creating products that only serve a single niche.
  - breckinloggins 13y ago
    You're probably right. In that case, I wonder if Wacom could make some kind of a "frame" around the iPad that can triangulate a stylus and receive pressure data, etc?
    - smacktoward 13y ago
      They'd probably be more inclined to find out if the market response to Surface had been something better than tepid.
    - 32bitkid 13y ago
      http://intuoscreativestylus.wacom.com/en/ http://intuoscreativestylus.wacom.com/en/
      - footpath 13y ago
        The Wacom Intuos Creative Stylus (what a mouthful) uses Bluetooth for pressure, which is similar to the Pogo Connect and Adonit Jot Touch styli. What the OP want is perhaps something similar to the iPen 2 <http://www.cregle.com/> http://www.cregle.com/>, a pen and receiver combo that captures pressure sensitive data.
KeyBoardG 13y ago
The new docking station and ability to drive high resolution displays is a lot more important than sites are recognizing. We can finally truly have 1 machine for everything on the go and docked at work or at home. No doubt it'll likely be more of a pleasure perhaps in a Surface Pro 3 that would be lighter and even more powerful. I don't really see the current crop of convertible laptop/tablets as solving this problem due to low perf and the fact that I'd never be able to code all day on those cramped keyboards.
- kayoone 13y ago
  This. I would go as far as to say this is where the PC is headed. Consumers will have one device like the Surface2 which is a tablet on the go and can be docked on the desk. Its already powerful enough for most peoples computing tasks and this will get alot better in the coming years. The traditional desktop PC will be (or already is) a niche again like workstations from the past for professionals.
- stinos 13y ago
  Good point. Ever since I touched my first computng device I've been longing for something that would fullfill the "1 machine for everything" principle properly. Lately this turns up more often on the net, mainly while referring to phone-like devices which seems awful to me as the screen is just to tiny to feel comfortable. A surface-size device however would be the real deal, for me at least.
- JonoW 13y ago
  This is where I see the traditional PC headed. Many people think that MS and traditional PC makers are taking a risk by making convertible/dual-use devices, but Apple is also taking a risk by not doing it. If the market decides that having a tablet that can multi-task as a fully fledged PC is a good idea, then Apple has a problem, because they can't make OSX touch friendly in a hurry. Their other option is make iOS more capable and make it run on Macbook level devices, but this won't be a quick task. Many people will say that dedicated devices like tablets and laptops are what people want, but there are plenty of cases where a multi-use device succeeds. The obvious case is the smartphone - it's basically combined a phone, MP3 player and camera together, and people love it.
SimianLogic2 13y ago
I had a Fujitsu Lifebook P1510 running Windows XP back in 2006... a 9" convertible tablet with a capacitive stylus. It's still my favorite machine that I've owned, and felt like the future (sitting on a couch, browsing the net & playing games). It saddened me greatly that Microsoft forbade anything under 10" for Vista & Win7. The Surface Pro is the first Windows machine I've actually desired since then -- the only thing that held me back was the 4gb cap on RAM. I already pre-ordered an 8gb model and can't wait to play with it.
Relys 13y ago
I did a bit of research on tablets and hybrids recently since my fiance needed a new machine. I ended up buying her a Sony Xperia Tablet Z (Andriod) since there really wasn't any good Windows hybrids on the market except for the Surface Pro. However, the battery life for the first generation was terrible and Surface RT isn't a smart investment because of the OS [place bet]dead in the next few years cough[/end bet]. However, I personally want a compact machine with the full Windows 8 experience so I've been waiting for the Surface Pro 2. If this thing has an all day battery life it will be an instant sale for me.
kayoone 13y ago
Devices like the Surface2 with docking capability could very well be the future of the PC. I could totally see myself getting one of these for my girlfriend or my parents as its all they need for personal computing.
Ygg2 13y ago
I'm wondering how good is Surface as a Wacom replacement? Is it passable, how does its pen work with Windows/Photoshop? I was looking to buy Cintiq 13HD for $1000, but a fully fledged tablet/laptop that is also a drawing board, for $900?! I mean compare this to Cintiq Companion which is $2000.
- kevingadd 13y ago
  IIRC it has actual Wacom digitizer hardware in it, so that brings it a lot closer to a Cintiq than a typical touchscreen would be.
  - Ygg2 13y ago
    What about the pen pressure levels?
    - garg 13y ago
      It has 1024 levels of pressure sensitivity. So it's very good at that. Initially it didn't work w/ photoshop so it was useless for many digital artists but they've fixed that now.
      - tetujin 13y ago
        I just created an account to say that it's actually 2048 levels of pressure (instead of 1024), or at least it is according to the Cintiq Companion website. My cintiq 21UX is also 2048. I'm looking to nab a companion later this year so that I can work and be location-agnostic, so I've been watching the details of it as they've been coming out. on a side note, My only hope is that the battery life is good enough :P People have been decrying the lack of a haswell (the win8 version, not the android hybrid) which I guess makes for a less solid battery life? I'm not up on my cpu tech, so I can't say. Wow, that was a longer comment than I'd originally intended. Sorry.
        garg 13y ago
        Thank you for the response. I should have been more specific in my comment. I meant that the Microsoft Surface Pro and Surface Pro 2 have 1024 levels of pressure sensitivity. You are correct that the Wacom Cintiq Companion has 2048. Another down side for the Wacom Cintiq Companion is that it's quite heavy compared to other tablets. I have a Cintiq 13HD and I'm very pleased with it but for portability I might get a Surface Pro 2.

87 points by kposehn 13y ago

I've been happy with my Surface Pro; the two changes I'm most looking forward to are the docking station and Haswell. The extra pixel density is a nice-to-have, but being able to pop it in and out of a docking station is killer. There are some other minor things I'd like addressed (the impossible-to-use microSD slot, for one. The always lost stylus is another), but I'll rebuy and probably hand the Surface Pro on to the kids.

Fuzzwah 13y ago
Are you using it for anything in particular which benefits from the touch input? If so, is the stylus an important positive?
- nigelsampson 13y ago
  I like the stylus for scribbling notes / impromptu architecture diagrams in one note, especially in meetings. I definitely view it as an ultrabook replacement. My only major gripe is that it's not a comfortable machine for on the lap work compared to a proper laptop.
  - r00fus 13y ago
    Could this be fixed with some of those iPad cases with built-in keyboards (except, of course, made for Surface)?
    - nigelsampson 13y ago
      Potentially, because the join between the type cover and tablet is obviously flexible it moves a lot when laying on a non uniform surface (my thighs). Also because of it's width I feel like I need to sit with my knees together to try and balance it, trying on one leg feels stupidly awkward.
- jgon 13y ago
  I own a surface pro and bought it particularly for the stylus and touch input. I tend to take a lot of notes at work, and also as I am working on side projects and one day I took a step back and looked at my desk and said "Is it really 2013 and I am pretty much scraping away at dead trees with a piece of metal dipped in ink like a caveman!?". I had notes spread out over dozens of binders, notebooks, engineering pads, etc, etc. How is this still a thing?! I also lost a bunch of notes from my schooling simply because the box they were in got lost. It felt to me like the equivalent of conducting all of my correspondence via paper letters, and keeping them in boxes in the basement. Of course, instead I do it through email, all nicely searchable at the drop of a hat. So the first thing I will say is that OneNote and the pen are a great writing experience. I do kind of miss the feedback of a pen against paper, but the "inking" in OneNote is top-notch, somehow looking even better than my regular writing. The response is really quick as well, which makes a big difference in feeling like you are actually writing instead of watching a line chase your pen around the screen. I've tried the Galaxy Note 10.1's stylus and S-Note and it is nowhere near as good. Syncing my notes to the Microsoft cloud is of course an added bonus for easy backup. That said, the widescreen aspect ratio was pretty dumb, especially for something billed as a device for being productive. I really can't understand it from any direction, I mean writing a document will be worse, editing photos is probably worse, I guess maybe people editing video will be happy? A better, wider aspect ratio closer to paper would be a serious improvement. At the end of the day however, I am able to take notes and do sketches, designs, etc, in a way that has a great writing "feel", offers search via really good text recognition, and offers seamless backup. I got mine discounted at a conference, so I can't say if I'd pay $900 for the ability to do this, but if I was back in University it would be an absolute no brainer. You probably won't find a better "writing" experience on the market, and if you do a lot of that then I recommend it.
  - mikestew 13y ago
    "How is this still a thing?!" Because the alternative costs $900 and doesn't fit in your pocket. Oh, I get what you're saying, I loved OneNote back when I had the old TabletPC. It's the best thing going, IMO. But I'm not spending that kind of money to run an OS I have no other use for, just to take notes. Make a $300 machine with a good digitizer that runs nothing but OneNote and I'd buy two.
- RyJones 13y ago
  Usually, I don't need the stylus; I'm using the keyboard and touchpad. However, when I do need it, I can't find it because it attaches where the power cord attaches, so I'm always removing it and setting it down, then forgetting to pick the stylus up. If they had a place to dock it on the top edge, that would be great. When my daughter uses my Surface, she uses it as a WACOM replacement, so she needs (and finds) the stylus.
Casseres 13y ago
What about the microSD slot makes it impossible to use? (I'm thinking about getting a Surface Pro 2.)
- RyJones 13y ago
  The angle of the edge makes insertion tricky. The lack of visible indicator as to which direction is correct; It would be nice if there was a little glyph showing the expected orientation.
  - Casseres 13y ago
    Okay, thanks.

breckinloggins 13y ago

I've often wondered why Apple doesn't have an "iPad Pro" that includes a Wacom or Wacom-like stylus system. I know that Apple is very much "no stylus" and I'm positive that was the right move for most uses, but there seems to be an obvious market here for creative types that need a real stylus (as in tip angle detection, pressure sensitivity, on-stylus buttons, etc).

nemothekid 13y ago
If I had to guess, the market isn't large enough nor or are the margins high enough for Apple to actually care. Aside from the Mac Pro, Apple seems allergic to creating products that only serve a single niche.
- breckinloggins 13y ago
  You're probably right. In that case, I wonder if Wacom could make some kind of a "frame" around the iPad that can triangulate a stylus and receive pressure data, etc?
  - smacktoward 13y ago
    They'd probably be more inclined to find out if the market response to Surface had been something better than tepid.
  - 32bitkid 13y ago
    http://intuoscreativestylus.wacom.com/en/ http://intuoscreativestylus.wacom.com/en/
    - footpath 13y ago
      The Wacom Intuos Creative Stylus (what a mouthful) uses Bluetooth for pressure, which is similar to the Pogo Connect and Adonit Jot Touch styli. What the OP want is perhaps something similar to the iPen 2 <http://www.cregle.com/> http://www.cregle.com/>, a pen and receiver combo that captures pressure sensitive data.

KeyBoardG 13y ago

The new docking station and ability to drive high resolution displays is a lot more important than sites are recognizing. We can finally truly have 1 machine for everything on the go and docked at work or at home. No doubt it'll likely be more of a pleasure perhaps in a Surface Pro 3 that would be lighter and even more powerful. I don't really see the current crop of convertible laptop/tablets as solving this problem due to low perf and the fact that I'd never be able to code all day on those cramped keyboards.

kayoone 13y ago
This. I would go as far as to say this is where the PC is headed. Consumers will have one device like the Surface2 which is a tablet on the go and can be docked on the desk. Its already powerful enough for most peoples computing tasks and this will get alot better in the coming years. The traditional desktop PC will be (or already is) a niche again like workstations from the past for professionals.
stinos 13y ago
Good point. Ever since I touched my first computng device I've been longing for something that would fullfill the "1 machine for everything" principle properly. Lately this turns up more often on the net, mainly while referring to phone-like devices which seems awful to me as the screen is just to tiny to feel comfortable. A surface-size device however would be the real deal, for me at least.
JonoW 13y ago
This is where I see the traditional PC headed. Many people think that MS and traditional PC makers are taking a risk by making convertible/dual-use devices, but Apple is also taking a risk by not doing it. If the market decides that having a tablet that can multi-task as a fully fledged PC is a good idea, then Apple has a problem, because they can't make OSX touch friendly in a hurry. Their other option is make iOS more capable and make it run on Macbook level devices, but this won't be a quick task. Many people will say that dedicated devices like tablets and laptops are what people want, but there are plenty of cases where a multi-use device succeeds. The obvious case is the smartphone - it's basically combined a phone, MP3 player and camera together, and people love it.

SimianLogic2 13y ago

I had a Fujitsu Lifebook P1510 running Windows XP back in 2006... a 9" convertible tablet with a capacitive stylus. It's still my favorite machine that I've owned, and felt like the future (sitting on a couch, browsing the net & playing games). It saddened me greatly that Microsoft forbade anything under 10" for Vista & Win7. The Surface Pro is the first Windows machine I've actually desired since then -- the only thing that held me back was the 4gb cap on RAM. I already pre-ordered an 8gb model and can't wait to play with it.

Relys 13y ago

I did a bit of research on tablets and hybrids recently since my fiance needed a new machine. I ended up buying her a Sony Xperia Tablet Z (Andriod) since there really wasn't any good Windows hybrids on the market except for the Surface Pro. However, the battery life for the first generation was terrible and Surface RT isn't a smart investment because of the OS [place bet]dead in the next few years cough[/end bet]. However, I personally want a compact machine with the full Windows 8 experience so I've been waiting for the Surface Pro 2. If this thing has an all day battery life it will be an instant sale for me.

kayoone 13y ago

Devices like the Surface2 with docking capability could very well be the future of the PC. I could totally see myself getting one of these for my girlfriend or my parents as its all they need for personal computing.

Ygg2 13y ago

I'm wondering how good is Surface as a Wacom replacement? Is it passable, how does its pen work with Windows/Photoshop? I was looking to buy Cintiq 13HD for $1000, but a fully fledged tablet/laptop that is also a drawing board, for $900?! I mean compare this to Cintiq Companion which is $2000.

kevingadd 13y ago
IIRC it has actual Wacom digitizer hardware in it, so that brings it a lot closer to a Cintiq than a typical touchscreen would be.
- Ygg2 13y ago
  What about the pen pressure levels?
  - garg 13y ago
    It has 1024 levels of pressure sensitivity. So it's very good at that. Initially it didn't work w/ photoshop so it was useless for many digital artists but they've fixed that now.
    - tetujin 13y ago
      I just created an account to say that it's actually 2048 levels of pressure (instead of 1024), or at least it is according to the Cintiq Companion website. My cintiq 21UX is also 2048. I'm looking to nab a companion later this year so that I can work and be location-agnostic, so I've been watching the details of it as they've been coming out. on a side note, My only hope is that the battery life is good enough :P People have been decrying the lack of a haswell (the win8 version, not the android hybrid) which I guess makes for a less solid battery life? I'm not up on my cpu tech, so I can't say. Wow, that was a longer comment than I'd originally intended. Sorry.
      - garg 13y ago
        Thank you for the response. I should have been more specific in my comment. I meant that the Microsoft Surface Pro and Surface Pro 2 have 1024 levels of pressure sensitivity. You are correct that the Wacom Cintiq Companion has 2048. Another down side for the Wacom Cintiq Companion is that it's quite heavy compared to other tablets. I have a Cintiq 13HD and I'm very pleased with it but for portability I might get a Surface Pro 2.