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Revealed: Qatar's World Cup 'slaves'

214 points by yapcguy 13y ago

rayiner 13y ago
It pains me that the U.S. has absolutely no balls to stand up to the Middle Eastern sheikdoms. And American businessmen are slobbering like puppies trying to get a slice of that oil capital. It's all quite disgusting really.
- peter_l_downs 13y ago
  Why would the US be involved in this issue? I would think that it's FIFA's fault for choosing the location.
  - 404error 13y ago
    IMO you are spot on that its FIFA's fault for choosing the location. The Cup will be moved to the winter and will affect European football due to league play. The US was runner up and should have been awarded the World Cup in 2022. The 1994 Cup in the US was one of the most, it not the most, profitable World Cup. The infrastructure is in place in the US to host the World Cup. Can you imagine what political ramifications there would be if the World Cup hosting rights were taking away from Qatar and awarded to the US.
    - the_watcher 13y ago
      Do you have sources for it being so profitable? For who? Everything I understand about events like the World Cup and Olympics is that they are massively wasteful, corrupt, publicly funded economic disasters. Is that just the Olympics?
      - 404error 13y ago
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economics_of_the_FIFA_World_Cup http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economics_of_the_FIFA_World_Cup It was one of the most profitable World Cups, take into account that it was in 1994.
        the_watcher 13y ago
        The most comprehensive source (and most recent, and only source about the economics I can still find) to this page suggests that it was an economic catastrophe that "showed a cumulative loss of $5.6 billion to $9 billion."[1] It's the same argument politicians use to swindle taxpayers into publicly financing stadiums for billionaire sports owners. [1] http://articles.latimes.com/2010/sep/07/opinion/la-oe-coates-worldcup-20100907 http://articles.latimes.com/2010/sep/07/opinion/la-oe-coates...
- cabalamat 13y ago
  > It pains me that the U.S. has absolutely no balls to stand up to the Middle Eastern sheikdoms. It's not that they haven't the balls, it's that the USG doesn't care about middle eastern (or anywhere else) countries having a poor human rights record, so long as those countries support US foreign policy. So for example, the USG has been a lot more vocal about human rights abuses in Syria and Iran (enemies of USA) than Bahrain and Saudi (allies).
  - derleth 13y ago
    Do you want the US to invade Qatar? Maybe establish a puppet government? Or just invade, leave, and see what happens?
    - cabalamat 13y ago
      > Do you want the US to invade Qatar? I don't want anyone to invade anywhere.
      - derleth 13y ago
        > I don't want anyone to invade anywhere. So what do you want to happen?
        cabalamat 13y ago
        FIFA could tell Qatar that they're not getting the World Cup unless they clean up their act. On a wider note, Western countries could refuse to do business with companies and countries involved in serious human rights violations.
- derleth 13y ago
  So, do you want a replay of Iraq or a replay of Vietnam?
  - rayiner 13y ago
    Iran. Crippling economic sanctions and concerted isolation.
    - derleth 13y ago
      > Iran. Crippling economic sanctions and concerted isolation. And decades later, Iran still hasn't changed.
      - rayiner 13y ago
        I don't care if they ever change, I just think it debases us to cozy up to them.
deleted 13y ago
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jlgreco 13y ago
From the article: • Evidence of forced labour on a huge World Cup infrastructure project. • Some Nepalese men have alleged that they have not been paid for months and have had their salaries retained to stop them running away. • Some workers on other sites say employers routinely confiscate passports and refuse to issue ID cards, in effect reducing them to the status of illegal aliens. • Some labourers say they have been denied access to free drinking water in the desert heat. • About 30 Nepalese sought refuge at their embassy in Doha to escape the brutal conditions of their employment. I have to object to The Guardian's use of scare quotes in the title...
- bsullivan01 13y ago
  I have to object to The Guardian's use of scare quotes in the title. You need to read more on the subject then. They have a very different definition of human rights in that part of the world. http://www.bing.com/search?q=maid+abuse+arab+countries http://www.bing.com/search?q=maid+abuse+arab+countries
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    So did The South. I don't care what they think, I consider it slavery, and so should everybody. Cultural relativism can go to hell when we are talking about fucking forced labor. I am not going to dampen my language just because they think forced labor is just fine, and neither should The Guardian.
    - bsullivan01 13y ago
      Huh? You objected to Guardian using "scare quotes" or something and I told that this type of abuse happens there all the time. Human rights don't exist.In fact, several of them have been arrested for pulling the same crap in USA http://www.kbur.com/2013/09/20/saudi-princess-scheduled-to-be-arraigned-on-charge-of-trafficking-kenyan-maid-in-us/ http://www.kbur.com/2013/09/20/saudi-princess-scheduled-to-b...
      - jlgreco 13y ago
icecreampain 13y ago
This is shocking... how? The arab empire was built on the slave trade. The whole of Dubai exists solely due to external workers, from engineers to the bricklayers. This should not shock anyone.
- gdilla 13y ago
  Uh, it's still wrong. That's the point.
- jlgreco 13y ago
  Something that is shocking is not necessarily surprising. "Shocking" in this case is more about the visceral reaction of disgust it causes.
- bsullivan01 13y ago
  The whole of Dubai exists solely due to external workers, from engineers to the bricklayers. External workers are fine since workers are different from slaves or "slaves". If they paid me $150K a year, I'd go there and lay bricks myself and for $1000 a month they'd get probably a billion applications. What they did is they screwed the poor Indians, Bangladeshis, Filipinos etc, once they got there.
- marchra 13y ago
  Agreed. This is a fascinating game mechanic they've created that we are considering adding to our app.
- at-fates-hands 13y ago
  The only shocking thing is how we in the US put up with this behavior from governments we send billions in aid to every year. You'd think we'd have the balls to suspend some their aid and have them put an end to this type of abuse.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - ihsw 13y ago
spindritf 13y ago
Not 'slaves' but serfs (no quotes necessary). Since we're moving back to feudalism, we should start getting it right.
kvinnako 13y ago
I am appalled by the conditions but I don't think any of these articles is going to change a single thing in Qatar. I believe it will continue happening in Qatar. Only way to stop it is educate people from poorer countries to not go there no matter how enticing it seems(just like a mirage).
- glesica 13y ago
  And to stop hosting international events and locating foreign-owned businesses there.
- umeshunni 13y ago
  Once those people from poorer countries are educated and stop going there, they'll be replaced by people from an even poorer country. In the early 80s, there were a lot of Korean workers in the Middle East. As the economy in Korea boomed and they had less of a reason to go the Middle East, they were replaced by Indians. As the Indian economy boomed in the 90s/00s, they were replaced by Nepalis, Bangladeshis and others.
vowelless 13y ago
As referenced to in the article and highly relevant, the Kafala System [1] which has roots in Islamic adoption jurisprudence [2]. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafala_system http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafala_system [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_adoptional_jurisprudence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_adoptional_jurisprudenc...
- yapcguy 13y ago
  Wow, only 6% of the labor force is made up of locals. Basically the Qataris sit back and let workers from the rest of the world do 94% of the country's work. Which begs the question, what exactly do Qataris do all day?! >"Under the state-run kafala sponsorship system, workers are also unable to change jobs or leave the country without their sponsor company's permission." (Guardian) > About 1.2 million foreign workers in Qatar, mostly from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, Indonesia and the Philippines, make up 94 percent of the labor force. There are nearly five foreign workers for each Qatari citizen, mostly housemaids and low-skilled workers. (Link 1 above)
  - Samuel_Michon 13y ago
    As is the case in all the Persian Gulf oil states. You didn’t think the sheikhs themselves would get their hands dirty, did you? They’ve got Pakistanis for that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in_Pakistan#Abuse http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in_Pakistan#A...
    - vowelless 13y ago
      Pretty much. Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Sri Lankans and many, many Indians. The proximity to the subcontinent makes it easy to bring in the labor force. Growing up in the middle east, I knew people whose passports were taken by their sponsor so that they couldn't leave the country. House maids are very badly treated in particular (physical abuse sometimes leading to death).
      - selmnoo 13y ago
morgante 13y ago
As someone who lives in the Emirates, I have to object to the allegation of "slaves." This is not slavery. It's indentured servitude, which is definitely distressing but not quite of the same character. Most importantly, in the talks I've had with workers, the vast majority of them still are happy to have these jobs despite the conditions. They're paid an order of magnitude more than they make in Nepal and if you go to poor Nepalese villages you'll see entire families building new houses based on earnings from sons who went to work in the gulf. Finally, it's important to note that there's pretty drastic variation in how workers are treated in different firms. Certainly none have ideal working conditions, but the majority are legal and passable. It's the truly horrible ones which actually trigger government investigations (and, sadly enough, many of the worst firms are actually run by overseas businessmen.).
- drzaiusapelord 13y ago
  >This is not slavery. It's indentured servitude Considering wages are being held and passports are taken, I'd say the use of the word slave is justified. >Most importantly, in the talks I've had with workers, the vast majority of them still are happy to have these jobs despite the conditions. Survivor bias. The ones who haven't been killed or run away like working there (or are too scared to tell you otherwise).
  - ihsw 13y ago
    > Considering wages are being held and passports are taken, I'd say the use of the word slave is justified. Slavery has a very unambiguous definition -- people are treated as property where they're traded and sold, and forced to work. If passports are being collected and passed around in a slavery market then I'd agree with you, but as it stands there is no such evidence of that.
    - jessaustin 13y ago
      ...as it stands there is no such evidence of that. There have certainly been allegations of it, including on this comment page. Why should we assume the best possible interpretation of how Qatari projects might be staffed with manual labor? Based on the little I've learned, any assumptions I make are more likely to go in the other direction.
bjhoops1 13y ago
Terrible. This reminds me of what was going on in Saipan 20 years ago. A paradise of conservative/libertarian economic governance that Jack Abramoff and Tom Delay worked so hard to protect from the horrors of organized labor and worker's rights. http://www.nytimes.com/1993/07/18/world/made-usa-hard-labor-pacific-island-special-report-saipan-sweatshops-are-no.html http://www.nytimes.com/1993/07/18/world/made-usa-hard-labor-...
- wooter 13y ago
  hold up. in no way is/was Saipan a paradise of libertarian economic governance. From your article: "If we complain, then our bosses would send us back to China and take away all of our money. Our families need the money." No libertarian I know, me included, would object to (rather, we would support) massive penalties for any entity that engaged in such behavior. Additionally, Jack Abramoff and Tom Delay are the exact opposite of anything/anyone a libertarian would endorse. I really encourage you to learn about Libertarianism because if you really believe Saipan 20 years ago was a "paradise of libertarian economic governance" you are farrrr off the mark.
  - Synaesthesia 13y ago
    I think the "paradise of libertarian economic governance" was sarcasm
    - wooter 13y ago
      seemed to me like he was suggesting the form of governance in place in Saipan 20 years ago was in some way consistent with Libertarian ideals - it was not.
  - bjhoops1 13y ago
    And how do you imagine these "massive penalties" would be enforced? Perhaps by government regulation? Can't recall the last time I heard a Libertarian talk about a lack of that, or say anything favorable about labor unions. I think a lot of Libertarians think of Libertarianism as economic Conservatism, except it all works out magically because Free Markets and legal marijuana! Both sides tend to have an misplaced trust in the free markets to solve problems, and have a knee-jerk reaction against any increase in the size of Big Government, new regulations or labor union-strengthening measures. I've been both a conservative and libertarian myself in the past, and I would agree that these outcomes are not considered desirable by adherents of those viewpoints, but unfortunately this sort of thing is very often the result of the policies and philosophy they thought would make everyone's lives better. My two cents. Or if I'm more honest, Thomas Frank's two cents. http://www.amazon.com/The-Wrecking-Crew-Conservatives-Government/dp/0805090908 http://www.amazon.com/The-Wrecking-Crew-Conservatives-Govern... Good read, that.
suhailpatel 13y ago
A very similar article was written 4 years ago in The Independent about Dubai and as far as I know nothing has changed. Definitely worth a read to find out about a very similar culture of modern day slavery 'The Dark Side of Dubai': http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/johann-hari/the-dark-side-of-dubai-1664368.html http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/johann-hari...
- shalmanese 13y ago
  Some expats have raised doubts over this article: http://www.thenational.ae/business/media/expat-takes-uk-journalist-johann-hari-to-task-over-portrayal-of-dubai http://www.thenational.ae/business/media/expat-takes-uk-jour...
bayesianhorse 13y ago
One of the appalling details is that these abuses to the individual don't make a dent in anyone's profit. Really, how many workers do you have to deny water to, in order to make up for even one worker's salary? I allege that this is actually a symptom of corruption. Starting with poor labor laws at the top, down to poor enforcement of probably already poor corporate policies on the ground. I don't really believe that this situation is even to the best interest of the companies (excepting maybe the slave driving contractors on the bottom).
- pbhjpbhj 13y ago
  If FIFA had any moral fortitude then they would cancel the event - if independent parties can verify the allegations and there is any evidence that the government have not been acting to the best of it's abilities to prevent such actions. It seems FIFA care nothing about football except that it's an opportunity for the rich to line their pockets. If FIFA don't act then governments in countries where FIFA operate should be shutting them down and disbarring all directors for supporting wide-scale illegal and immoral activity against human beings. Even one confirmed case of a worker being unfairly denied their entire wage (without the government moving to correct the injustice), never mind being denied water or freedom from physical abuse or having their passport unjustly confiscated and they should just revert to the runner up country. That would be fair play.¹ 1 - http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/socialresponsibility/fairplay/index.html http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/socialresponsibility/fairplay/...
yohann305 13y ago
How can someone enjoy a soccer match knowing it is happening on a field stained by the blood of modern-day slaves. I WON'T. WILL YOU?
linux_devil 13y ago
Can't imagine to walk in their shoes. This is a crime and serious human right violation. Wonder if embassy of small country not able to take action against contractors?
philwelch 13y ago
Qatar's 2022 World Cup is a major controversy even outside of this. FIFA accepts World Cup bids mainly on the basis of bribery, but Qatar was a bridge too far. The country is so unsuitable to host a World Cup while simultaneously being so full of money that's being spent chasing prestige that it's completely blatant what really happened there. The temperature is over 100 in the summer, so even with massive air conditioned stadiums they're not sure how to build yet, it's going to be a miserable experience for fans. If they move it to the winter, that means either January/February (which conflicts with the Winter Olympics and, in the US, the NFL postseason, leaving FOX aggrieved that their World Cup broadcasting rights are essentially worthless) or November/December (which conflicts with club football in England, particularly the traditional Boxing Day fixtures). Australia, one of the other countries that bid for 2022, is threatening to sue FIFA if they move the tournament to winter on the grounds that they bid for a summer tournament. The USA also had a very strong 2022 bid. Qatar, like Russia (who will host the 2018 World Cup) also has laws against homosexuality. The Russia bid, by the way, won against an England bid, and while it's more defensible than Qatar, it also smells of bribery and does more to motivate England in particular against FIFA's handling of the next two World Cup bidding processes. With all that in context, this frankly isn't news. Qatar, like Dubai, is notorious for its treatment of migrant construction labor. But stories like this serve a PR purpose for the multitudes of parties aggrieved by FIFA, all of whom have money on the line.
- tantalor 13y ago
  Do the terms "winter" and "summer" in this context only refer to the northern hemisphere? Was Australia's "summer" bid to place the tournament in their winter? Presumably they have better weather in the winter.
  - jowiar 13y ago
    Much of Australia is reasonably temperate. July in Sydney or Melbourne is in the 40s-50s Fahrenheit, which, while chilly, is both comparable to the climate for a large portion of the club season in Europe and vastly better than 100-ish for a sport that combines endurance running with interval sprints.
jcdavis 13y ago
As someone who spent 4 months in Qatar several years ago, I am unfortunately confirm the pathetic treatment of foreign physical laborers there. As an example, one thing all the malls there do is "family day": the idea in theory being that it's then to make Muslim women feel more comfortable. Turns out in practice though, a decently dressed Arab male can go in, as can a white male. "Family day" is really "no laborers at the mall day", and it just so happens to be on the one day most workers get off
bernardom 13y ago
"Revealed?" Where have you been? How is this news?
susi22 13y ago
I'm glad this is getting attention. I was in Germany in July and watched a ~1h documentary about the working conditions there. Confirming what is written in the Guardian. The image I saw in the documentary were extreme. No access to clean water, no access to working bath rooms, no paying. They're also lured into coming there being promised a better life and once they're there they realize it but it's too late. There has also been a report on it in March from Spiegel: http://www.spiegel.de/sport/fussball/wm-2022-internationaler-gewerkschaftsbund-erhebt-vorwuerfe-gegen-katar-a-891266.html http://www.spiegel.de/sport/fussball/wm-2022-internationaler... I usually dont' quote BILD, but they say the workers get paid ~0.78 Cent (EUR) an hour: http://www.bild.de/sport/fussball/wm/arbeiter-werden-wie-sklaven-behandelt-29673610.bild.html http://www.bild.de/sport/fussball/wm/arbeiter-werden-wie-skl... No air conditioning when it's often over 50 deg. celsius (~122 Fahrenheit). This could explain the many hear failures noted in the article.
alexeisadeski3 13y ago
Hey, different strokes for different folks.
andrewtbham 13y ago
This seems off topic to me and I don't feel like it follows the guidelines. http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html The thing I that bothers me is I get sucked into these off topics sensational stories.
iluvuspartacus 13y ago
There is always the possibility of a fourth Punic war...
KVFinn 13y ago
If you've ever wondered to what degree bribes influence World Cup selection, to find a worse location than Qatar you would almost have to put the World Cup in Antarctica or under the ocean. By just about every measure they considered in every official analysis, Qatar was rated as the worst choice. Total attendance in South Africa 2010 was 3.1 million. Qatar has a population of 1.9 million. http://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/1kf33g/epl_ceo_joins_efa_is_calling_for_fifa_to_take_the/cbov711?context=3 http://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/1kf33g/epl_ceo_joins... They also promised some magical stadium air conditioning tech because the regular environmental of Qatar would make having a big outdoor tournament impossible. Big surprise, relying on not-yet-invented tech is looking like it won't work and they are already saying they may have to move to the coolest part of the year. Just one more specific example: FIFA requires there to be 6 different host cities, while Qatar only had three. They got around this by saying they would 'build' four new cities in time for the World Cup. It's a travesty.
arjn 13y ago
None of this is new. There have been plenty of articles describing how expat laborers are treated in some of these Middle Eastern countries. I have family who live and work in Dubai (very near Qatar) and Ive visited a few times. Here are some of the things I've heard : - Workers having their passports taken away so they can't leave. This is very common. - Not being paid wages they were promised. - Beatings and general mistreatment. - Being made to work in extreme temperatures. - Authorities under-reporting weather temperatures so workers cannot stop working. - Getting thrown out of the country and/or being threatened if any complaints are made. - Housemaids from India,Sri Lanka,Phillipines,Bangladesh etc being assaulted, beaten and sexually molested. This is shockingly common. - Large numbers of women (girls) from Slavic and East Asian countries being imported/traded/bartered as sex workers. - Basically - if you're brown-skinned and not a local you're like a 3rd class citizen.
wehadfun 13y ago
Why hasn't Nepal rescued its country men from this?
- everest81 13y ago
  no one cares, its a corrupt government where everyone is looking out to make money at every level.
everest81 13y ago
Some perspective from Nepali side, even though I don't reside there now I go back quite often. Airport in Nepal has separate line/queue for emigration for these workers going to arab countries like Qatar. Every day 100s of such workers emigrate out of Nepal, all carrying dream of earning a decent living and sending money back for family. As much as it pains me to say this, some of those workers have no better option in Nepal. In my village itself, I've seen hoards of supposed lower caste people make a better living for themselves because of earnings/money sent back by their sons/husbands from Qatar and other countries. They were neglected by upper caste/government before and now they are neglected by another country. Problem lies with Nepal, the government more than anything. Everyone who aspires to go abroad thinks or believes it won't happen to them, but they don't know the bad conditions waiting for them until they leave. And as the article states, in most cases they take loans, sell farmland(if they've any) and build up a sizable debt before setting food abroad. What can be done to help the situation? Fixing problems from Nepali side aside, it would help if Fifa would strip Qatar of the WC all together, but not likely as they were bribed in first place anyways. It would also help if bigger entities(US, UK) put pressure on Fifa in the regards.
- contingencies 13y ago
  Agreed. FIFA is unlikely to suddenly change though: it, like the numerous ultra-conservative non-state totalitarian oil-fuelled sheikhdom-hells of the Middle East, is like the rest of the mass media entertainment industry merely a symptom of the real problem, which is global capitalism. The US and Europe benefit too much to make any concrete change. They're all hypocrites. We have to make change ourselves by supporting one another.
mas644 13y ago
As somebody who spent a few years in Saudi Arabia (as well as visiting some of its fellow oil rich neighbors)...I can confirm this problem which is endemic to all rich Middle Eastern countries. As an American of Indian ethnicity (I can speak Hindi), I was able to see how people from these countries treat folks from the Indian subcontinent. They're all basically nouveau-riche. They bring in what is slave labor/indentured servitude from poorer countries like Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Nepal, the Philippines, etc. They clean the toilets, they serve the food at McDonalds, they build every house and skyscraper, the work the oil fields...in other words all the dirty jobs. Likewise people from western countries are brought into do the white collar work -- doctors, engineers, architects, etc....though they're having a blast. I would say the situation is analogous to illegal immigrants from Mexico in the US -- but believe it or not we're way way way way way nicer to our illegal immigrants than these countries are to their legal immigrants! They live in terrible and barbaric conditions very similar to those described in the article. What makes it all so horrid is the disparity in wealth between the way they live and the way the elites live. If you're in Dubai, you can go snowboarding on a ski slope inside a shopping mall -- built by some guy who's in the outskirts of the city, sleeping in a hot tin can with 12 other guys, a broken AC, completely sore body, and sun burnt skin. You'll sometimes see Arab guys screaming at/assaulting these people at stores, shops, or taxis as if they're feudal lords talking to their peasants. My father calls these immigrants heroes. They take shit (physically, verbally, mentally) you and I could not imagine just to send back the equivalent of $100-$200 a month to their families back home. That small amount of money enables them to educate their kids, feed their family, build homes, businesses, etc. They dream of the day they get to return home and finally see their families again.
beloch 13y ago
Qatar is right next to the UAE, both geographically and in terms of their treatment of foreign laborers. When somebody I know mentions they are considering working or vacationing in Dubai, I make a point of mentioning how those gleaming towers were built. Now I get to complain about Qatar whenever the world cup comes up in conversation. Gee, that ought to make me popular! The UAE and Qatar are both countries awash in oil money who are trying to buy their way out of their uncivilized reputations. Surprisingly, it's working. People are attracted by the gleaming steel and concrete that makes places like Dubai seem like they're from the future. Working there (in white collar jobs) also appeals because the average engineer can afford servants! Although it may feel boorish, pointing out the true nature of the foundations these places are built upon is the only way to prevent more cities just like them from popping up wherever there is money right next to poverty.
- curiousDog 13y ago
  I'm not sure why you're being downvoted. What you say is a 100% true. After watching how a laborer was treated in Dubai, I refuse to fly Emirates, Qatar, Etihad or any middle eastern airline. And I hope I never have to set foot in these atrocious places for the rest of my life.
  - beloch 13y ago
    People from the Emirates, Etihad, or Qatar, and those who have vacationed/worked there also visit this board, and are no doubt not happy about this being pointed out. Even just visiting a place makes you feel connected to it, and angry when something like this is pointed out. Like I said, I don't expect saying things like this to make me popular. Still, the more people are willing to be unpopular, the more chance there is for change.
Fando 13y ago
The richest people are refusing to pay for labor, enslaving human beings instead - insanity.

214 points by yapcguy 13y ago

It pains me that the U.S. has absolutely no balls to stand up to the Middle Eastern sheikdoms. And American businessmen are slobbering like puppies trying to get a slice of that oil capital. It's all quite disgusting really.

peter_l_downs 13y ago
Why would the US be involved in this issue? I would think that it's FIFA's fault for choosing the location.
- 404error 13y ago
  IMO you are spot on that its FIFA's fault for choosing the location. The Cup will be moved to the winter and will affect European football due to league play. The US was runner up and should have been awarded the World Cup in 2022. The 1994 Cup in the US was one of the most, it not the most, profitable World Cup. The infrastructure is in place in the US to host the World Cup. Can you imagine what political ramifications there would be if the World Cup hosting rights were taking away from Qatar and awarded to the US.
  - the_watcher 13y ago
    Do you have sources for it being so profitable? For who? Everything I understand about events like the World Cup and Olympics is that they are massively wasteful, corrupt, publicly funded economic disasters. Is that just the Olympics?
    - 404error 13y ago
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economics_of_the_FIFA_World_Cup http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economics_of_the_FIFA_World_Cup It was one of the most profitable World Cups, take into account that it was in 1994.
      - the_watcher 13y ago
        The most comprehensive source (and most recent, and only source about the economics I can still find) to this page suggests that it was an economic catastrophe that "showed a cumulative loss of $5.6 billion to $9 billion."[1] It's the same argument politicians use to swindle taxpayers into publicly financing stadiums for billionaire sports owners. [1] http://articles.latimes.com/2010/sep/07/opinion/la-oe-coates-worldcup-20100907 http://articles.latimes.com/2010/sep/07/opinion/la-oe-coates...
cabalamat 13y ago
> It pains me that the U.S. has absolutely no balls to stand up to the Middle Eastern sheikdoms. It's not that they haven't the balls, it's that the USG doesn't care about middle eastern (or anywhere else) countries having a poor human rights record, so long as those countries support US foreign policy. So for example, the USG has been a lot more vocal about human rights abuses in Syria and Iran (enemies of USA) than Bahrain and Saudi (allies).
- derleth 13y ago
  Do you want the US to invade Qatar? Maybe establish a puppet government? Or just invade, leave, and see what happens?
  - cabalamat 13y ago
    > Do you want the US to invade Qatar? I don't want anyone to invade anywhere.
    - derleth 13y ago
      > I don't want anyone to invade anywhere. So what do you want to happen?
      - cabalamat 13y ago
        FIFA could tell Qatar that they're not getting the World Cup unless they clean up their act. On a wider note, Western countries could refuse to do business with companies and countries involved in serious human rights violations.
derleth 13y ago
So, do you want a replay of Iraq or a replay of Vietnam?
- rayiner 13y ago
  Iran. Crippling economic sanctions and concerted isolation.
  - derleth 13y ago
    > Iran. Crippling economic sanctions and concerted isolation. And decades later, Iran still hasn't changed.
    - rayiner 13y ago
      I don't care if they ever change, I just think it debases us to cozy up to them.

deleted 13y ago

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jlgreco 13y ago

From the article: • Evidence of forced labour on a huge World Cup infrastructure project. • Some Nepalese men have alleged that they have not been paid for months and have had their salaries retained to stop them running away. • Some workers on other sites say employers routinely confiscate passports and refuse to issue ID cards, in effect reducing them to the status of illegal aliens. • Some labourers say they have been denied access to free drinking water in the desert heat. • About 30 Nepalese sought refuge at their embassy in Doha to escape the brutal conditions of their employment. I have to object to The Guardian's use of scare quotes in the title...

bsullivan01 13y ago
I have to object to The Guardian's use of scare quotes in the title. You need to read more on the subject then. They have a very different definition of human rights in that part of the world. http://www.bing.com/search?q=maid+abuse+arab+countries http://www.bing.com/search?q=maid+abuse+arab+countries
- jlgreco 13y ago
  So did The South. I don't care what they think, I consider it slavery, and so should everybody. Cultural relativism can go to hell when we are talking about fucking forced labor. I am not going to dampen my language just because they think forced labor is just fine, and neither should The Guardian.
  - bsullivan01 13y ago
    Huh? You objected to Guardian using "scare quotes" or something and I told that this type of abuse happens there all the time. Human rights don't exist.In fact, several of them have been arrested for pulling the same crap in USA http://www.kbur.com/2013/09/20/saudi-princess-scheduled-to-be-arraigned-on-charge-of-trafficking-kenyan-maid-in-us/ http://www.kbur.com/2013/09/20/saudi-princess-scheduled-to-b...
    - jlgreco 13y ago

icecreampain 13y ago

This is shocking... how? The arab empire was built on the slave trade. The whole of Dubai exists solely due to external workers, from engineers to the bricklayers. This should not shock anyone.

gdilla 13y ago
Uh, it's still wrong. That's the point.
jlgreco 13y ago
Something that is shocking is not necessarily surprising. "Shocking" in this case is more about the visceral reaction of disgust it causes.
bsullivan01 13y ago
The whole of Dubai exists solely due to external workers, from engineers to the bricklayers. External workers are fine since workers are different from slaves or "slaves". If they paid me $150K a year, I'd go there and lay bricks myself and for $1000 a month they'd get probably a billion applications. What they did is they screwed the poor Indians, Bangladeshis, Filipinos etc, once they got there.
marchra 13y ago
Agreed. This is a fascinating game mechanic they've created that we are considering adding to our app.
at-fates-hands 13y ago
The only shocking thing is how we in the US put up with this behavior from governments we send billions in aid to every year. You'd think we'd have the balls to suspend some their aid and have them put an end to this type of abuse.
- deleted 13y ago
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- ihsw 13y ago

spindritf 13y ago

Not 'slaves' but serfs (no quotes necessary). Since we're moving back to feudalism, we should start getting it right.

kvinnako 13y ago

I am appalled by the conditions but I don't think any of these articles is going to change a single thing in Qatar. I believe it will continue happening in Qatar. Only way to stop it is educate people from poorer countries to not go there no matter how enticing it seems(just like a mirage).

glesica 13y ago
And to stop hosting international events and locating foreign-owned businesses there.
umeshunni 13y ago
Once those people from poorer countries are educated and stop going there, they'll be replaced by people from an even poorer country. In the early 80s, there were a lot of Korean workers in the Middle East. As the economy in Korea boomed and they had less of a reason to go the Middle East, they were replaced by Indians. As the Indian economy boomed in the 90s/00s, they were replaced by Nepalis, Bangladeshis and others.

vowelless 13y ago

As referenced to in the article and highly relevant, the Kafala System [1] which has roots in Islamic adoption jurisprudence [2]. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafala_system http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kafala_system [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_adoptional_jurisprudence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_adoptional_jurisprudenc...

yapcguy 13y ago
Wow, only 6% of the labor force is made up of locals. Basically the Qataris sit back and let workers from the rest of the world do 94% of the country's work. Which begs the question, what exactly do Qataris do all day?! >"Under the state-run kafala sponsorship system, workers are also unable to change jobs or leave the country without their sponsor company's permission." (Guardian) > About 1.2 million foreign workers in Qatar, mostly from India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal, Indonesia and the Philippines, make up 94 percent of the labor force. There are nearly five foreign workers for each Qatari citizen, mostly housemaids and low-skilled workers. (Link 1 above)
- Samuel_Michon 13y ago
  As is the case in all the Persian Gulf oil states. You didn’t think the sheikhs themselves would get their hands dirty, did you? They’ve got Pakistanis for that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in_Pakistan#Abuse http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in_Pakistan#A...
  - vowelless 13y ago
    Pretty much. Pakistanis, Bangladeshis, Sri Lankans and many, many Indians. The proximity to the subcontinent makes it easy to bring in the labor force. Growing up in the middle east, I knew people whose passports were taken by their sponsor so that they couldn't leave the country. House maids are very badly treated in particular (physical abuse sometimes leading to death).
    - selmnoo 13y ago

morgante 13y ago

As someone who lives in the Emirates, I have to object to the allegation of "slaves." This is not slavery. It's indentured servitude, which is definitely distressing but not quite of the same character. Most importantly, in the talks I've had with workers, the vast majority of them still are happy to have these jobs despite the conditions. They're paid an order of magnitude more than they make in Nepal and if you go to poor Nepalese villages you'll see entire families building new houses based on earnings from sons who went to work in the gulf. Finally, it's important to note that there's pretty drastic variation in how workers are treated in different firms. Certainly none have ideal working conditions, but the majority are legal and passable. It's the truly horrible ones which actually trigger government investigations (and, sadly enough, many of the worst firms are actually run by overseas businessmen.).

drzaiusapelord 13y ago
>This is not slavery. It's indentured servitude Considering wages are being held and passports are taken, I'd say the use of the word slave is justified. >Most importantly, in the talks I've had with workers, the vast majority of them still are happy to have these jobs despite the conditions. Survivor bias. The ones who haven't been killed or run away like working there (or are too scared to tell you otherwise).
- ihsw 13y ago
  > Considering wages are being held and passports are taken, I'd say the use of the word slave is justified. Slavery has a very unambiguous definition -- people are treated as property where they're traded and sold, and forced to work. If passports are being collected and passed around in a slavery market then I'd agree with you, but as it stands there is no such evidence of that.
  - jessaustin 13y ago
    ...as it stands there is no such evidence of that. There have certainly been allegations of it, including on this comment page. Why should we assume the best possible interpretation of how Qatari projects might be staffed with manual labor? Based on the little I've learned, any assumptions I make are more likely to go in the other direction.

bjhoops1 13y ago

Terrible. This reminds me of what was going on in Saipan 20 years ago. A paradise of conservative/libertarian economic governance that Jack Abramoff and Tom Delay worked so hard to protect from the horrors of organized labor and worker's rights. http://www.nytimes.com/1993/07/18/world/made-usa-hard-labor-pacific-island-special-report-saipan-sweatshops-are-no.html http://www.nytimes.com/1993/07/18/world/made-usa-hard-labor-...

wooter 13y ago
hold up. in no way is/was Saipan a paradise of libertarian economic governance. From your article: "If we complain, then our bosses would send us back to China and take away all of our money. Our families need the money." No libertarian I know, me included, would object to (rather, we would support) massive penalties for any entity that engaged in such behavior. Additionally, Jack Abramoff and Tom Delay are the exact opposite of anything/anyone a libertarian would endorse. I really encourage you to learn about Libertarianism because if you really believe Saipan 20 years ago was a "paradise of libertarian economic governance" you are farrrr off the mark.
- Synaesthesia 13y ago
  I think the "paradise of libertarian economic governance" was sarcasm
  - wooter 13y ago
    seemed to me like he was suggesting the form of governance in place in Saipan 20 years ago was in some way consistent with Libertarian ideals - it was not.
- bjhoops1 13y ago
  And how do you imagine these "massive penalties" would be enforced? Perhaps by government regulation? Can't recall the last time I heard a Libertarian talk about a lack of that, or say anything favorable about labor unions. I think a lot of Libertarians think of Libertarianism as economic Conservatism, except it all works out magically because Free Markets and legal marijuana! Both sides tend to have an misplaced trust in the free markets to solve problems, and have a knee-jerk reaction against any increase in the size of Big Government, new regulations or labor union-strengthening measures. I've been both a conservative and libertarian myself in the past, and I would agree that these outcomes are not considered desirable by adherents of those viewpoints, but unfortunately this sort of thing is very often the result of the policies and philosophy they thought would make everyone's lives better. My two cents. Or if I'm more honest, Thomas Frank's two cents. http://www.amazon.com/The-Wrecking-Crew-Conservatives-Government/dp/0805090908 http://www.amazon.com/The-Wrecking-Crew-Conservatives-Govern... Good read, that.

suhailpatel 13y ago

A very similar article was written 4 years ago in The Independent about Dubai and as far as I know nothing has changed. Definitely worth a read to find out about a very similar culture of modern day slavery 'The Dark Side of Dubai': http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/johann-hari/the-dark-side-of-dubai-1664368.html http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/johann-hari...

shalmanese 13y ago
Some expats have raised doubts over this article: http://www.thenational.ae/business/media/expat-takes-uk-journalist-johann-hari-to-task-over-portrayal-of-dubai http://www.thenational.ae/business/media/expat-takes-uk-jour...

bayesianhorse 13y ago

One of the appalling details is that these abuses to the individual don't make a dent in anyone's profit. Really, how many workers do you have to deny water to, in order to make up for even one worker's salary? I allege that this is actually a symptom of corruption. Starting with poor labor laws at the top, down to poor enforcement of probably already poor corporate policies on the ground. I don't really believe that this situation is even to the best interest of the companies (excepting maybe the slave driving contractors on the bottom).

pbhjpbhj 13y ago
If FIFA had any moral fortitude then they would cancel the event - if independent parties can verify the allegations and there is any evidence that the government have not been acting to the best of it's abilities to prevent such actions. It seems FIFA care nothing about football except that it's an opportunity for the rich to line their pockets. If FIFA don't act then governments in countries where FIFA operate should be shutting them down and disbarring all directors for supporting wide-scale illegal and immoral activity against human beings. Even one confirmed case of a worker being unfairly denied their entire wage (without the government moving to correct the injustice), never mind being denied water or freedom from physical abuse or having their passport unjustly confiscated and they should just revert to the runner up country. That would be fair play.¹ 1 - http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/socialresponsibility/fairplay/index.html http://www.fifa.com/aboutfifa/socialresponsibility/fairplay/...

yohann305 13y ago

How can someone enjoy a soccer match knowing it is happening on a field stained by the blood of modern-day slaves. I WON'T. WILL YOU?

linux_devil 13y ago

Can't imagine to walk in their shoes. This is a crime and serious human right violation. Wonder if embassy of small country not able to take action against contractors?

philwelch 13y ago

Qatar's 2022 World Cup is a major controversy even outside of this. FIFA accepts World Cup bids mainly on the basis of bribery, but Qatar was a bridge too far. The country is so unsuitable to host a World Cup while simultaneously being so full of money that's being spent chasing prestige that it's completely blatant what really happened there. The temperature is over 100 in the summer, so even with massive air conditioned stadiums they're not sure how to build yet, it's going to be a miserable experience for fans. If they move it to the winter, that means either January/February (which conflicts with the Winter Olympics and, in the US, the NFL postseason, leaving FOX aggrieved that their World Cup broadcasting rights are essentially worthless) or November/December (which conflicts with club football in England, particularly the traditional Boxing Day fixtures). Australia, one of the other countries that bid for 2022, is threatening to sue FIFA if they move the tournament to winter on the grounds that they bid for a summer tournament. The USA also had a very strong 2022 bid. Qatar, like Russia (who will host the 2018 World Cup) also has laws against homosexuality. The Russia bid, by the way, won against an England bid, and while it's more defensible than Qatar, it also smells of bribery and does more to motivate England in particular against FIFA's handling of the next two World Cup bidding processes. With all that in context, this frankly isn't news. Qatar, like Dubai, is notorious for its treatment of migrant construction labor. But stories like this serve a PR purpose for the multitudes of parties aggrieved by FIFA, all of whom have money on the line.

tantalor 13y ago
Do the terms "winter" and "summer" in this context only refer to the northern hemisphere? Was Australia's "summer" bid to place the tournament in their winter? Presumably they have better weather in the winter.
- jowiar 13y ago
  Much of Australia is reasonably temperate. July in Sydney or Melbourne is in the 40s-50s Fahrenheit, which, while chilly, is both comparable to the climate for a large portion of the club season in Europe and vastly better than 100-ish for a sport that combines endurance running with interval sprints.

jcdavis 13y ago

As someone who spent 4 months in Qatar several years ago, I am unfortunately confirm the pathetic treatment of foreign physical laborers there. As an example, one thing all the malls there do is "family day": the idea in theory being that it's then to make Muslim women feel more comfortable. Turns out in practice though, a decently dressed Arab male can go in, as can a white male. "Family day" is really "no laborers at the mall day", and it just so happens to be on the one day most workers get off

bernardom 13y ago

"Revealed?" Where have you been? How is this news?

susi22 13y ago

I'm glad this is getting attention. I was in Germany in July and watched a ~1h documentary about the working conditions there. Confirming what is written in the Guardian. The image I saw in the documentary were extreme. No access to clean water, no access to working bath rooms, no paying. They're also lured into coming there being promised a better life and once they're there they realize it but it's too late. There has also been a report on it in March from Spiegel: http://www.spiegel.de/sport/fussball/wm-2022-internationaler-gewerkschaftsbund-erhebt-vorwuerfe-gegen-katar-a-891266.html http://www.spiegel.de/sport/fussball/wm-2022-internationaler... I usually dont' quote BILD, but they say the workers get paid ~0.78 Cent (EUR) an hour: http://www.bild.de/sport/fussball/wm/arbeiter-werden-wie-sklaven-behandelt-29673610.bild.html http://www.bild.de/sport/fussball/wm/arbeiter-werden-wie-skl... No air conditioning when it's often over 50 deg. celsius (~122 Fahrenheit). This could explain the many hear failures noted in the article.

alexeisadeski3 13y ago

Hey, different strokes for different folks.

andrewtbham 13y ago

This seems off topic to me and I don't feel like it follows the guidelines. http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html The thing I that bothers me is I get sucked into these off topics sensational stories.

iluvuspartacus 13y ago

There is always the possibility of a fourth Punic war...

KVFinn 13y ago

If you've ever wondered to what degree bribes influence World Cup selection, to find a worse location than Qatar you would almost have to put the World Cup in Antarctica or under the ocean. By just about every measure they considered in every official analysis, Qatar was rated as the worst choice. Total attendance in South Africa 2010 was 3.1 million. Qatar has a population of 1.9 million. http://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/1kf33g/epl_ceo_joins_efa_is_calling_for_fifa_to_take_the/cbov711?context=3 http://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/1kf33g/epl_ceo_joins... They also promised some magical stadium air conditioning tech because the regular environmental of Qatar would make having a big outdoor tournament impossible. Big surprise, relying on not-yet-invented tech is looking like it won't work and they are already saying they may have to move to the coolest part of the year. Just one more specific example: FIFA requires there to be 6 different host cities, while Qatar only had three. They got around this by saying they would 'build' four new cities in time for the World Cup. It's a travesty.

arjn 13y ago

None of this is new. There have been plenty of articles describing how expat laborers are treated in some of these Middle Eastern countries. I have family who live and work in Dubai (very near Qatar) and Ive visited a few times. Here are some of the things I've heard : - Workers having their passports taken away so they can't leave. This is very common. - Not being paid wages they were promised. - Beatings and general mistreatment. - Being made to work in extreme temperatures. - Authorities under-reporting weather temperatures so workers cannot stop working. - Getting thrown out of the country and/or being threatened if any complaints are made. - Housemaids from India,Sri Lanka,Phillipines,Bangladesh etc being assaulted, beaten and sexually molested. This is shockingly common. - Large numbers of women (girls) from Slavic and East Asian countries being imported/traded/bartered as sex workers. - Basically - if you're brown-skinned and not a local you're like a 3rd class citizen.

wehadfun 13y ago

Why hasn't Nepal rescued its country men from this?

everest81 13y ago
no one cares, its a corrupt government where everyone is looking out to make money at every level.

everest81 13y ago

Some perspective from Nepali side, even though I don't reside there now I go back quite often. Airport in Nepal has separate line/queue for emigration for these workers going to arab countries like Qatar. Every day 100s of such workers emigrate out of Nepal, all carrying dream of earning a decent living and sending money back for family. As much as it pains me to say this, some of those workers have no better option in Nepal. In my village itself, I've seen hoards of supposed lower caste people make a better living for themselves because of earnings/money sent back by their sons/husbands from Qatar and other countries. They were neglected by upper caste/government before and now they are neglected by another country. Problem lies with Nepal, the government more than anything. Everyone who aspires to go abroad thinks or believes it won't happen to them, but they don't know the bad conditions waiting for them until they leave. And as the article states, in most cases they take loans, sell farmland(if they've any) and build up a sizable debt before setting food abroad. What can be done to help the situation? Fixing problems from Nepali side aside, it would help if Fifa would strip Qatar of the WC all together, but not likely as they were bribed in first place anyways. It would also help if bigger entities(US, UK) put pressure on Fifa in the regards.

contingencies 13y ago
Agreed. FIFA is unlikely to suddenly change though: it, like the numerous ultra-conservative non-state totalitarian oil-fuelled sheikhdom-hells of the Middle East, is like the rest of the mass media entertainment industry merely a symptom of the real problem, which is global capitalism. The US and Europe benefit too much to make any concrete change. They're all hypocrites. We have to make change ourselves by supporting one another.

mas644 13y ago

As somebody who spent a few years in Saudi Arabia (as well as visiting some of its fellow oil rich neighbors)...I can confirm this problem which is endemic to all rich Middle Eastern countries. As an American of Indian ethnicity (I can speak Hindi), I was able to see how people from these countries treat folks from the Indian subcontinent. They're all basically nouveau-riche. They bring in what is slave labor/indentured servitude from poorer countries like Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Nepal, the Philippines, etc. They clean the toilets, they serve the food at McDonalds, they build every house and skyscraper, the work the oil fields...in other words all the dirty jobs. Likewise people from western countries are brought into do the white collar work -- doctors, engineers, architects, etc....though they're having a blast. I would say the situation is analogous to illegal immigrants from Mexico in the US -- but believe it or not we're way way way way way nicer to our illegal immigrants than these countries are to their legal immigrants! They live in terrible and barbaric conditions very similar to those described in the article. What makes it all so horrid is the disparity in wealth between the way they live and the way the elites live. If you're in Dubai, you can go snowboarding on a ski slope inside a shopping mall -- built by some guy who's in the outskirts of the city, sleeping in a hot tin can with 12 other guys, a broken AC, completely sore body, and sun burnt skin. You'll sometimes see Arab guys screaming at/assaulting these people at stores, shops, or taxis as if they're feudal lords talking to their peasants. My father calls these immigrants heroes. They take shit (physically, verbally, mentally) you and I could not imagine just to send back the equivalent of $100-$200 a month to their families back home. That small amount of money enables them to educate their kids, feed their family, build homes, businesses, etc. They dream of the day they get to return home and finally see their families again.

beloch 13y ago

Qatar is right next to the UAE, both geographically and in terms of their treatment of foreign laborers. When somebody I know mentions they are considering working or vacationing in Dubai, I make a point of mentioning how those gleaming towers were built. Now I get to complain about Qatar whenever the world cup comes up in conversation. Gee, that ought to make me popular! The UAE and Qatar are both countries awash in oil money who are trying to buy their way out of their uncivilized reputations. Surprisingly, it's working. People are attracted by the gleaming steel and concrete that makes places like Dubai seem like they're from the future. Working there (in white collar jobs) also appeals because the average engineer can afford servants! Although it may feel boorish, pointing out the true nature of the foundations these places are built upon is the only way to prevent more cities just like them from popping up wherever there is money right next to poverty.

curiousDog 13y ago
I'm not sure why you're being downvoted. What you say is a 100% true. After watching how a laborer was treated in Dubai, I refuse to fly Emirates, Qatar, Etihad or any middle eastern airline. And I hope I never have to set foot in these atrocious places for the rest of my life.
- beloch 13y ago
  People from the Emirates, Etihad, or Qatar, and those who have vacationed/worked there also visit this board, and are no doubt not happy about this being pointed out. Even just visiting a place makes you feel connected to it, and angry when something like this is pointed out. Like I said, I don't expect saying things like this to make me popular. Still, the more people are willing to be unpopular, the more chance there is for change.

Fando 13y ago

The richest people are refusing to pay for labor, enslaving human beings instead - insanity.