8 ms·

The Second Coming of Java

67 points by rck 13y ago

dmiladinov 13y ago
The second coming of Java the platform (the JVM), at any rate.
noir_lord 13y ago
> The best way was a brand new architecture based on Java, a programing tool that grown more powerful than may expected. Kudos on the proof reading.
- RBerenguel 13y ago
  Well, you can't expect the editor to ask june, july and august, too.
total__C 13y ago
Calling the JVM platform a relic is a major mistake - the number of businesses that rely on the platform is massive. However Java-the-language has been stagnant since Java 1.5 in September 2004. The Java API has had some changes but the language has remained mostly unchanged. The 1.8 version promises some nice improvements inspired by FP languages. Unfortunately, 1.8 has been continuously delayed with a current release date of sometime in early 2014. For JVM developers who care about their productivity, moving over to languages such as Scala, Groovy, and Clojure is the only sane choice.
- llemiengre 13y ago
  I may be wrong but afaik java 8 has been delayed once (http://mreinhold.org/blog/secure-the-train http://mreinhold.org/blog/secure-the-train)
  - lmm 13y ago
    Many of the productivity features we're talking about (e.g. lambda) were originally supposed to be in java 7, so have already been delayed multiple times.
- jbooth 13y ago
  Java fills a particular niche (code with an emphasis on readability) which is not addressed by Groovy or Clojure and arguably not addressed by Scala. I'd say Go is the biggest competition for that niche as a language, although it's not JVM, it does fix many warts with how Java handles inheritance/polymorphism without sacrificing readability and simplicity. Groovy is slow as a 1-legged dog. (we use it to fill the shell/perl niche a lot but it is slow, effectively you're doing reflection lookups every time you call a method in Groovy). The dynamicness makes it better for scripting or web programming, though, where you don't care as much about performance. Scala is the JVM's C++, a giant pile of overlapping features, supported by an advanced and very slow compiler that yields fast bytecode. Case classes, funny operator overloading, lots of additional syntax for collection manipulation. They're giving you more expressiveness at a cost of readability and language complexity. (This is an opinion, some may disagree). Clojure is really awesome but most dev shops will have an easier time with imperative programming models. Ultimately, not changing in 8 years isn't fundamentally bad, and Java isn't that bad at all as a language if you avoid things like EJB and Hibernate, and if you're not looking for a dynamic language like Ruby and dissapointed by Java not being Ruby. You might just disagree with the tradeoffs.
  - sbilstein 13y ago
    I'd argue Scala is much more readable than Java with some effective practices. Type inference (where appropriate) cuts down on distracting text, operator overloading is great when used judiciously, for comprehensions, etc are all great features. Just because Java requires explicit typing all over the place does not make it easy to read, especially when I'm trying to decipher what the ResourceBuilderFactoryFactory class is doing in my enterprise grade codebase. There is cognitive load in parsing tons of text to express simple concepts, just as there is cognitive load in deciphering a bunch of random symbols doing something complex. Scala with discipline lets you choose somewhere in between; Java gives no choice.
    - jbooth 13y ago
      Type inference is great, and is part of why I consider Scala to be "one step forward, 2 steps back" rather than just a total loss. As far as the rest, we'll just have to disagree, I stated up front that it was an opinion :)
- gte910h 13y ago
  Java programmers seem to love the swap too. All the ones I've seen in shops that have swapped love the transition
- smrtinsert 13y ago
  That's a little generous. Clojure is great and I enjoy working with and Scala is fun too, but Java still has the best tooling support. Scala IDE has weird little bugs here and there whereas I haven't encountered a JDT bug in years. I use Eclipse for all of them Counterclockwise, ScalaIDE and JDT. Counterclockwise is actually really nice. Selecting forms is super simple and makes the parenthesis "issue" not a thing.
- Roboprog 13y ago
  It's a shame there isn't an "employable" choice of language platforms somewhere between a GC-ed language and C. The JVM has an exquisitely tuned GC, but any GC still comes with a cost. But do I have to use a language with no safety features at all if I opt for other non-GC languages? (I'm of course thinking of something like FreePascal, but there must be a number of good middle-ground alternatives that are being ignored in the work-place, which would easily write less hardware-hogging code)
  - Roboprog 13y ago
    I would not have thought the above comment was offensive. Perhaps somebody doesn't like having his/her choice of language questioned??? (whether it was Java, or C, dunno) My hammer rocks!!!
- vorg 13y ago
  > moving over to languages such as Scala, Groovy, and Clojure is the only sane choice. Anyone who mentions these three languages in the same breath is regurgitating the marketing talk for one of them. The article doesn't make that mistake, so could actually be genuine research rather than some PR drivel from some corporate Product Manager.
InTheSwiss 13y ago
I love Java but I hate Oracle more than any other tech company. I don't refuse to use the language but I don't like to either if I can help it. I really hope with OpenJDK we can just forget about Oracle in the long term and have a solid language/platform that is free from a corporate parent.
mring33621 13y ago
Never left, actually
tootie 13y ago
I think that saying it's the second coming is misleading. It was no longer considered sexy and cutting edge by the startup community, but as the web spread to every corner of every industry it was by far the language and platform of choice for thousands of IT departments. The result is an unmatched galaxy of scalable products that can be dropped in to any web application.
theboywho 13y ago
I can't figure out what the target audience of this post is. It's without doubt not programmers, as the article tries to explain what a programming language is "...It’s a programming language, a way of writing software code..." And also, who is going to be interested in a story about java if they aren't programmers or in the IT business? The author seems to not even know what a JVM language is. "...Originally, the Java virtual machine — aka the JVM — only ran code built with the Java programming language, but today, it runs all sorts of other languages..." Another example where the author is not being consistent "...language called Clojure to a new and increasingly popular invention known as Scala...Lisp, a way of quickly scripting code" So now clojure is a language, Scala an invention and Lisp, a way of quickly scripting code. This article is making noise without talking to anybody.
- smrtinsert 13y ago
  Tech leadership or programming enthusiasist are potential targets. I gather the average person is actually the target due to this statement: "If you know Java at all, you probably think of it as something from the late ’90s, a child of the original internet boom, a little piece of downloadable software that sent a cartoon mascot dancing across your Netscape web browser."
- dpapathanasiou 13y ago
  I can't figure out what the target audience of this post is. It's part of Wired's "Enterprise Technology" blog[1] so it's for CIO/CTO and other IT consultant types who don't write any code themselves, but make "best practice"[sic] recommendations. [1] http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/ http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/
  - Yhippa 13y ago
    "I can draw the Javas on a whiteboard but I can't actually do the Javas."
- cliveowen 13y ago
  This is a common refrain for all of the articles published in this column. They also made like 10 variations or so of the same article about Hadoop, Dremel and related software without actually explaining anything of value about the platform. I guess the audience is whoever gets to see the ads.
teach 13y ago
"In the summer of 2011, Bob Lee - the [CTO] at Square and a former engineer at Google - announced... that the web was 'on the cusp of a Java renaissance.'" I'll bet he wouldn't make that same announcement today.
gbaygon 13y ago
"Java is really the only choice when it comes to the requirements for a company like ours — extreme performance requirements and extreme scalability requirements. There is no viable alternative" What about C#?
- easytiger 13y ago
  Is that a joke? [I mean both the quote and the retord]
- edwinnathaniel 13y ago
  C#, clearly, did not meet their expectation.
  - pjmlp 13y ago
    Some people like to earn money, but avoid paying for developer tools.
    - throwaway1979 13y ago
      It has nothing to do with dev tools costing money. It has everything to do with Windows costing money.
      - pjmlp 13y ago
        It is the same thing.
- camus 13y ago
  C# is not a plateform. When people talk about Java it is the JVM , not the language. .NET is no alternative to java, i cant install .NET on a *nix server ( and no, Mono is not an alternative either).
skwirl 13y ago
Java never really went away. This article to me is really more of an attack on the recently/currently trendy technologies like Ruby on Rails than anything else.
- cliveowen 13y ago
  As long as companies and organizations will have legacy code, not a single language will ever be considered dead.
  - jheriko 13y ago
    so very true
- Roboprog 13y ago
  And overlooks that a "scripty" language helped get a minimum prototype done much more easily than COBOL-esque Java coding. Of course, if your site becomes popular, performance matters later.
unclebucknasty 13y ago
Java has steadily grown over the years as the premier choice in the Enterprise. This is the reason that Java developers are relatively many (though I don't believe they are falling from the sky as the article suggests). This article is a little strange in general. The idea that Java was ever dead seems to be from the perspective of those who thought it was only for applets or devices. But the author acknowledges his awareness that this is not all Java ever was. So, to make the case that it died, he holds out a few examples of companies that tried something else, but couldn't scale until they went to the JVM. He simultaneously ignores the entire Enterprise Java world. Odd.
- gph 13y ago
  Yea, it's like the author switches perspectives to push his narrative. For normal end-users Java has all but disappeared from their ecosystem. But for enterprise programmers it never went anywhere.
  - unclebucknasty 13y ago
    Exactly. It would have been a more interesting (or at least accurate) article if he'd actually focused on Java's enterprise success, then talked about how these once "edgy" start-ups somewhat ironically wound up moving from "trendier" languages/stacks, back to the Enterprise stalwart, Java.
- James_Duval 13y ago
  From the point-of-view of a web developer, JSP is virtually invisible. For this reason, I guess the majority of online tech magazine readers, who would presumably be mostly ninjas, pirates and rockstars, would think of Java as dead. I mean, it's a bit outdated as a language, definitely showing some signs of strain, but it's still not dead - for better or worse. I've yet to come across a more human-readable language, barring COBOL.
  - SeanDav 13y ago
    For readability nothing beats BASIC. I sometimes wish that BASIC had taken off rather than being allocated to niche environments like VBA etc. It just wasn't powerful enough and in order to make it more powerful it was kind of bastardized into something almost unrecognisable form its origins.
api 13y ago
Java applets are dead, and should be. Great idea poorly executed. Java on the server never died or even coughed. It's huge. It's a very rich ecosystem and performs very well at scale. Java for apps is IMHO underrated. The biggest foot-shooting decision Sun made was to bundle shitware like the ask.com toolbar with the JRE, and never to solve the JRE deploy/update problem that requires that every Java app bundle its own JRE. Solve that and java apps on desktop computers will make a comeback.
- huherto 13y ago
  > Java applets are dead, and should be. Great idea poorly executed. I think Microsoft killed the applets when it stopped upgrading the java plugin in IE. Applets were challenging MS dominance on the desktop. They kept it that way until java script came along.
intoxnet 13y ago
lolz. Pick a side! Oh wait, no need, I'm on .net already. :D
arel 13y ago
The article is terrible when read from the perspective of a developer. But it does touch on something - often here on HN, start up culture and wider tech-centric sites if a technology is mainstream, not release 0.001 its not considered worthy of attention or praise and gets an unhealthy amount of sour grapes. Java/JVM is ubiquitous in our field and has been quietly getting the job done for over 15 years in that sweet spot of fast, server-centric applications. I'm looking forward to v1.8 where it will pick up the features needed to keep it an essential tool.
latchkey 13y ago
With the 1.0 beta release of Ceylon, it is pretty clear the JVM is still a pretty useful basis for new languages... http://ceylon-lang.org/blog/2013/09/22/ceylon-1/ http://ceylon-lang.org/blog/2013/09/22/ceylon-1/
drderidder 13y ago
The performance metrics for some JVM-based technologies are really impressive but I continue to see performance problems with Java (the language) based software. In my field, very high speed network data processing work is done with C/C++ out of necessity.
- cgh 13y ago
  You are correct. Java's niche is servers that need to accept a lot of concurrent connections and middleware that can shove data around via a set of standard protocols. Outside of those enterprise-centric areas, it's not a great fit for much else (fast data processing, embedded, games, etc.) I say this as someone who has worked with server-side Java since 1999.
aa0 13y ago
Java is slow. It's going nowhere fast. LLVM on the other hand...
the_watcher 13y ago
I'm just a novice programmer, but it is my understanding that Clojure is a Lisp dialect, it doesn't just feel like Lisp. Am I correct?
- jbooth 13y ago
  It's got some differences, notably a vector type with square [] brackets that is differentiated from homoiconic function calls in normal (), and also some hacky stuff with (recur) that they had to do to deal with the JVM's lack of tail call optimization.
  - j_jochem 13y ago
    Isn't [...] just syntactic sugar for (vector ...)? The point about tail call optimization is interesting though. I wonder what it would take to implement that on a JVM.
    - jbooth 13y ago
      I'm not enough of an expert on Clojure or Lisp to answer (my lisp knowledge is extrapolated from scheme in college). I believe that Rich Hickey said that having special notation for vectors (and for maps, I remember now) was about, basically, yes, that syntactic sugar. He was specifically comparing to lists in () which are somewhat indistinguishable from function calls in (), hence an example of overloaded parentheses.
alasdair_ 13y ago
Even Groupon, arguably one of the largest Rails-based sites still out there, is moving away from Rails. (Mostly to Node.js although again, with some Java). (And yes, obviously Ruby != Rails.)
- camus 13y ago
  Yeah,like "Enterprise" Node.js projects are managable with a team of hundred of developpers... they are not. Node sucks at database interaction, sucks at performance(computation) , the only thing that nodejs does well is concurrency ( handling concurrent connections ) but it doesnt make the js code running inside nodejs fast(computation). In fact it is not. Your server wont die fast because Nodejs can handle a lot of connections , but the end users will wait a very very long time for a response. that's the truth about NodeJS.
drags 13y ago
This article makes it sound like an either-or, but JRuby is a mature alternative that allows you to pair Ruby's excellent web tools ecosystem (Rails foremost within it) with the ability to shunt off expensive tasks to Java or another JVM language.
jheriko 13y ago
isn't this just a single example of 'right tools for the job' and the common sense that ruby has abyssmal performance owing to /its/ architecture compared to java and so simply can not scale as well as a like for like implementaton in java (which can be said to have abyssmal performance compared to /good/ native bytes, C or C++ [although that gap is narrowing significantly in many areas - especially when sloppy code is involved]).
eccp 13y ago
Neal Ford said: "In a keynote address that I once co-presented with Martin Fowler, he made a perceptive observation: The legacy of Java will be the platform, not the language."
Zelphyr 13y ago
Some of this article reads as if it were a "Special Advertisement Section" paid by Oracle to fend off the negative press Java has been getting from the recent spate of security exploits. Its good that it mentions the JVM-based languages though. I know many "Java" programmers who hate Java proper but love languages like Groovy, Scala, etc...
brown9-2 13y ago
The idea that Java is a "Clinton-era relic" is pretty ahistorical when you consider that Google and Amazon have been using Java on the server side since their early days - it never went away. The tech press just didn't pay attention to it.

67 points by rck 13y ago

The second coming of Java the platform (the JVM), at any rate.

> The best way was a brand new architecture based on Java, a programing tool that grown more powerful than may expected. Kudos on the proof reading.

RBerenguel 13y ago
Well, you can't expect the editor to ask june, july and august, too.

total__C 13y ago

Calling the JVM platform a relic is a major mistake - the number of businesses that rely on the platform is massive. However Java-the-language has been stagnant since Java 1.5 in September 2004. The Java API has had some changes but the language has remained mostly unchanged. The 1.8 version promises some nice improvements inspired by FP languages. Unfortunately, 1.8 has been continuously delayed with a current release date of sometime in early 2014. For JVM developers who care about their productivity, moving over to languages such as Scala, Groovy, and Clojure is the only sane choice.

llemiengre 13y ago
I may be wrong but afaik java 8 has been delayed once (http://mreinhold.org/blog/secure-the-train http://mreinhold.org/blog/secure-the-train)
- lmm 13y ago
  Many of the productivity features we're talking about (e.g. lambda) were originally supposed to be in java 7, so have already been delayed multiple times.
jbooth 13y ago
Java fills a particular niche (code with an emphasis on readability) which is not addressed by Groovy or Clojure and arguably not addressed by Scala. I'd say Go is the biggest competition for that niche as a language, although it's not JVM, it does fix many warts with how Java handles inheritance/polymorphism without sacrificing readability and simplicity. Groovy is slow as a 1-legged dog. (we use it to fill the shell/perl niche a lot but it is slow, effectively you're doing reflection lookups every time you call a method in Groovy). The dynamicness makes it better for scripting or web programming, though, where you don't care as much about performance. Scala is the JVM's C++, a giant pile of overlapping features, supported by an advanced and very slow compiler that yields fast bytecode. Case classes, funny operator overloading, lots of additional syntax for collection manipulation. They're giving you more expressiveness at a cost of readability and language complexity. (This is an opinion, some may disagree). Clojure is really awesome but most dev shops will have an easier time with imperative programming models. Ultimately, not changing in 8 years isn't fundamentally bad, and Java isn't that bad at all as a language if you avoid things like EJB and Hibernate, and if you're not looking for a dynamic language like Ruby and dissapointed by Java not being Ruby. You might just disagree with the tradeoffs.
- sbilstein 13y ago
  I'd argue Scala is much more readable than Java with some effective practices. Type inference (where appropriate) cuts down on distracting text, operator overloading is great when used judiciously, for comprehensions, etc are all great features. Just because Java requires explicit typing all over the place does not make it easy to read, especially when I'm trying to decipher what the ResourceBuilderFactoryFactory class is doing in my enterprise grade codebase. There is cognitive load in parsing tons of text to express simple concepts, just as there is cognitive load in deciphering a bunch of random symbols doing something complex. Scala with discipline lets you choose somewhere in between; Java gives no choice.
  - jbooth 13y ago
    Type inference is great, and is part of why I consider Scala to be "one step forward, 2 steps back" rather than just a total loss. As far as the rest, we'll just have to disagree, I stated up front that it was an opinion :)
gte910h 13y ago
Java programmers seem to love the swap too. All the ones I've seen in shops that have swapped love the transition
smrtinsert 13y ago
That's a little generous. Clojure is great and I enjoy working with and Scala is fun too, but Java still has the best tooling support. Scala IDE has weird little bugs here and there whereas I haven't encountered a JDT bug in years. I use Eclipse for all of them Counterclockwise, ScalaIDE and JDT. Counterclockwise is actually really nice. Selecting forms is super simple and makes the parenthesis "issue" not a thing.
Roboprog 13y ago
It's a shame there isn't an "employable" choice of language platforms somewhere between a GC-ed language and C. The JVM has an exquisitely tuned GC, but any GC still comes with a cost. But do I have to use a language with no safety features at all if I opt for other non-GC languages? (I'm of course thinking of something like FreePascal, but there must be a number of good middle-ground alternatives that are being ignored in the work-place, which would easily write less hardware-hogging code)
- Roboprog 13y ago
  I would not have thought the above comment was offensive. Perhaps somebody doesn't like having his/her choice of language questioned??? (whether it was Java, or C, dunno) My hammer rocks!!!
vorg 13y ago
> moving over to languages such as Scala, Groovy, and Clojure is the only sane choice. Anyone who mentions these three languages in the same breath is regurgitating the marketing talk for one of them. The article doesn't make that mistake, so could actually be genuine research rather than some PR drivel from some corporate Product Manager.

InTheSwiss 13y ago

I love Java but I hate Oracle more than any other tech company. I don't refuse to use the language but I don't like to either if I can help it. I really hope with OpenJDK we can just forget about Oracle in the long term and have a solid language/platform that is free from a corporate parent.

mring33621 13y ago

Never left, actually

tootie 13y ago

I think that saying it's the second coming is misleading. It was no longer considered sexy and cutting edge by the startup community, but as the web spread to every corner of every industry it was by far the language and platform of choice for thousands of IT departments. The result is an unmatched galaxy of scalable products that can be dropped in to any web application.

theboywho 13y ago

I can't figure out what the target audience of this post is. It's without doubt not programmers, as the article tries to explain what a programming language is "...It’s a programming language, a way of writing software code..." And also, who is going to be interested in a story about java if they aren't programmers or in the IT business? The author seems to not even know what a JVM language is. "...Originally, the Java virtual machine — aka the JVM — only ran code built with the Java programming language, but today, it runs all sorts of other languages..." Another example where the author is not being consistent "...language called Clojure to a new and increasingly popular invention known as Scala...Lisp, a way of quickly scripting code" So now clojure is a language, Scala an invention and Lisp, a way of quickly scripting code. This article is making noise without talking to anybody.

smrtinsert 13y ago
Tech leadership or programming enthusiasist are potential targets. I gather the average person is actually the target due to this statement: "If you know Java at all, you probably think of it as something from the late ’90s, a child of the original internet boom, a little piece of downloadable software that sent a cartoon mascot dancing across your Netscape web browser."
dpapathanasiou 13y ago
I can't figure out what the target audience of this post is. It's part of Wired's "Enterprise Technology" blog[1] so it's for CIO/CTO and other IT consultant types who don't write any code themselves, but make "best practice"[sic] recommendations. [1] http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/ http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/
- Yhippa 13y ago
  "I can draw the Javas on a whiteboard but I can't actually do the Javas."
cliveowen 13y ago
This is a common refrain for all of the articles published in this column. They also made like 10 variations or so of the same article about Hadoop, Dremel and related software without actually explaining anything of value about the platform. I guess the audience is whoever gets to see the ads.

teach 13y ago

"In the summer of 2011, Bob Lee - the [CTO] at Square and a former engineer at Google - announced... that the web was 'on the cusp of a Java renaissance.'" I'll bet he wouldn't make that same announcement today.

gbaygon 13y ago

"Java is really the only choice when it comes to the requirements for a company like ours — extreme performance requirements and extreme scalability requirements. There is no viable alternative" What about C#?

easytiger 13y ago
Is that a joke? [I mean both the quote and the retord]
edwinnathaniel 13y ago
C#, clearly, did not meet their expectation.
- pjmlp 13y ago
  Some people like to earn money, but avoid paying for developer tools.
  - throwaway1979 13y ago
    It has nothing to do with dev tools costing money. It has everything to do with Windows costing money.
    - pjmlp 13y ago
      It is the same thing.
camus 13y ago
C# is not a plateform. When people talk about Java it is the JVM , not the language. .NET is no alternative to java, i cant install .NET on a *nix server ( and no, Mono is not an alternative either).

skwirl 13y ago

Java never really went away. This article to me is really more of an attack on the recently/currently trendy technologies like Ruby on Rails than anything else.

cliveowen 13y ago
As long as companies and organizations will have legacy code, not a single language will ever be considered dead.
- jheriko 13y ago
  so very true
Roboprog 13y ago
And overlooks that a "scripty" language helped get a minimum prototype done much more easily than COBOL-esque Java coding. Of course, if your site becomes popular, performance matters later.

unclebucknasty 13y ago

Java has steadily grown over the years as the premier choice in the Enterprise. This is the reason that Java developers are relatively many (though I don't believe they are falling from the sky as the article suggests). This article is a little strange in general. The idea that Java was ever dead seems to be from the perspective of those who thought it was only for applets or devices. But the author acknowledges his awareness that this is not all Java ever was. So, to make the case that it died, he holds out a few examples of companies that tried something else, but couldn't scale until they went to the JVM. He simultaneously ignores the entire Enterprise Java world. Odd.

gph 13y ago
Yea, it's like the author switches perspectives to push his narrative. For normal end-users Java has all but disappeared from their ecosystem. But for enterprise programmers it never went anywhere.
- unclebucknasty 13y ago
  Exactly. It would have been a more interesting (or at least accurate) article if he'd actually focused on Java's enterprise success, then talked about how these once "edgy" start-ups somewhat ironically wound up moving from "trendier" languages/stacks, back to the Enterprise stalwart, Java.
James_Duval 13y ago
From the point-of-view of a web developer, JSP is virtually invisible. For this reason, I guess the majority of online tech magazine readers, who would presumably be mostly ninjas, pirates and rockstars, would think of Java as dead. I mean, it's a bit outdated as a language, definitely showing some signs of strain, but it's still not dead - for better or worse. I've yet to come across a more human-readable language, barring COBOL.
- SeanDav 13y ago
  For readability nothing beats BASIC. I sometimes wish that BASIC had taken off rather than being allocated to niche environments like VBA etc. It just wasn't powerful enough and in order to make it more powerful it was kind of bastardized into something almost unrecognisable form its origins.

api 13y ago

Java applets are dead, and should be. Great idea poorly executed. Java on the server never died or even coughed. It's huge. It's a very rich ecosystem and performs very well at scale. Java for apps is IMHO underrated. The biggest foot-shooting decision Sun made was to bundle shitware like the ask.com toolbar with the JRE, and never to solve the JRE deploy/update problem that requires that every Java app bundle its own JRE. Solve that and java apps on desktop computers will make a comeback.

huherto 13y ago
> Java applets are dead, and should be. Great idea poorly executed. I think Microsoft killed the applets when it stopped upgrading the java plugin in IE. Applets were challenging MS dominance on the desktop. They kept it that way until java script came along.

intoxnet 13y ago

lolz. Pick a side! Oh wait, no need, I'm on .net already. :D

arel 13y ago

The article is terrible when read from the perspective of a developer. But it does touch on something - often here on HN, start up culture and wider tech-centric sites if a technology is mainstream, not release 0.001 its not considered worthy of attention or praise and gets an unhealthy amount of sour grapes. Java/JVM is ubiquitous in our field and has been quietly getting the job done for over 15 years in that sweet spot of fast, server-centric applications. I'm looking forward to v1.8 where it will pick up the features needed to keep it an essential tool.

latchkey 13y ago

With the 1.0 beta release of Ceylon, it is pretty clear the JVM is still a pretty useful basis for new languages... http://ceylon-lang.org/blog/2013/09/22/ceylon-1/ http://ceylon-lang.org/blog/2013/09/22/ceylon-1/

drderidder 13y ago

The performance metrics for some JVM-based technologies are really impressive but I continue to see performance problems with Java (the language) based software. In my field, very high speed network data processing work is done with C/C++ out of necessity.

cgh 13y ago
You are correct. Java's niche is servers that need to accept a lot of concurrent connections and middleware that can shove data around via a set of standard protocols. Outside of those enterprise-centric areas, it's not a great fit for much else (fast data processing, embedded, games, etc.) I say this as someone who has worked with server-side Java since 1999.

aa0 13y ago

Java is slow. It's going nowhere fast. LLVM on the other hand...

the_watcher 13y ago

I'm just a novice programmer, but it is my understanding that Clojure is a Lisp dialect, it doesn't just feel like Lisp. Am I correct?

jbooth 13y ago
It's got some differences, notably a vector type with square [] brackets that is differentiated from homoiconic function calls in normal (), and also some hacky stuff with (recur) that they had to do to deal with the JVM's lack of tail call optimization.
- j_jochem 13y ago
  Isn't [...] just syntactic sugar for (vector ...)? The point about tail call optimization is interesting though. I wonder what it would take to implement that on a JVM.
  - jbooth 13y ago
    I'm not enough of an expert on Clojure or Lisp to answer (my lisp knowledge is extrapolated from scheme in college). I believe that Rich Hickey said that having special notation for vectors (and for maps, I remember now) was about, basically, yes, that syntactic sugar. He was specifically comparing to lists in () which are somewhat indistinguishable from function calls in (), hence an example of overloaded parentheses.

alasdair_ 13y ago

Even Groupon, arguably one of the largest Rails-based sites still out there, is moving away from Rails. (Mostly to Node.js although again, with some Java). (And yes, obviously Ruby != Rails.)

camus 13y ago
Yeah,like "Enterprise" Node.js projects are managable with a team of hundred of developpers... they are not. Node sucks at database interaction, sucks at performance(computation) , the only thing that nodejs does well is concurrency ( handling concurrent connections ) but it doesnt make the js code running inside nodejs fast(computation). In fact it is not. Your server wont die fast because Nodejs can handle a lot of connections , but the end users will wait a very very long time for a response. that's the truth about NodeJS.

drags 13y ago

This article makes it sound like an either-or, but JRuby is a mature alternative that allows you to pair Ruby's excellent web tools ecosystem (Rails foremost within it) with the ability to shunt off expensive tasks to Java or another JVM language.

jheriko 13y ago

isn't this just a single example of 'right tools for the job' and the common sense that ruby has abyssmal performance owing to /its/ architecture compared to java and so simply can not scale as well as a like for like implementaton in java (which can be said to have abyssmal performance compared to /good/ native bytes, C or C++ [although that gap is narrowing significantly in many areas - especially when sloppy code is involved]).

eccp 13y ago

Neal Ford said: "In a keynote address that I once co-presented with Martin Fowler, he made a perceptive observation: The legacy of Java will be the platform, not the language."

Zelphyr 13y ago

Some of this article reads as if it were a "Special Advertisement Section" paid by Oracle to fend off the negative press Java has been getting from the recent spate of security exploits. Its good that it mentions the JVM-based languages though. I know many "Java" programmers who hate Java proper but love languages like Groovy, Scala, etc...

brown9-2 13y ago

The idea that Java is a "Clinton-era relic" is pretty ahistorical when you consider that Google and Amazon have been using Java on the server side since their early days - it never went away. The tech press just didn't pay attention to it.