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1.25x, let alone 1.5x for a PhD to write code seems a little high. Typically a PhD doesn't make you a better software engineer, so why pay more (other than its

1.25x, let alone 1.5x for a PhD to write code seems a little high. Typically a PhD doesn't make you a better software engineer, so why pay more (other than its expected)? $1.5x for a PhD to solve hard problems your company needs solutions to and can't hand to a random new hire, on the other hand, is reasonable. Perhaps they think they are getting hired to do the later and you are hiring them to do the former ?

sliverstorm 13y ago
Simple suggestion: Perhaps they heard that PhD's make 1.5X, and haven't yet realized that the PhD's making 1.5X are solving the hard problems, not working as code monkeys? Thus they assume that the degree simply merits 1.5X for the same work.
- anologwintermut 13y ago
  Possible, but I'd imagine unlikely. Why would a PhD apply for a code monkey job? Most don't do so intentionally, certainly they didn't get a PhD to become a code monkey. So if they are willingly doing so, they probably exhausted all alternative career options or think they have. In which case, while they may ask for more money, I don't think they would actually turn down the job if denied.
  - sliverstorm 13y ago
    certainly they didn't get a PhD to become a code monkey Well, what did they get it to become? I bet most of them don't even know. I know I contemplated a graduate degree, and if I had done it, it would have been for love of the material and love of learning, not because I knew precisely what I was going to do with it.
    - eli_gottlieb 13y ago
      Well the whole problem with "knowing what you'll do with a PhD" is, if we knew how research was going to turn out, we wouldn't have to do it. A PhD is training to probe into the unknown, which means that the economic yields of research are, by definition, unknown, which means finding jobs for researchers at for-profit businesses is hard.
      - sliverstorm 13y ago
        I get that. Which is exactly why it is feasible to me that a PhD might wind up applying for code monkey jobs.
      - foobarbazqux 13y ago
        Since it's a hard problem, it sounds like someone should write their PhD thesis on finding jobs for researchers at for-profit businesses.
        selimthegrim 13y ago
        I believe S. Brin and L. Page have locked that dissertation topic up.....but might take a while to submit.
      - gaius 13y ago
        No, a PhD is training to become an academic. It's reasonable to assume that a PhD has lowered themselves to work in industry because they couldn't get a post-doc. Whether that's true or not it starts out the interview on a bad footing. What if a guy walked into your company and said "I couldn't get a job at Google so I thought I'd try you schmucks"?
        amirmc 13y ago
        > " ... a PhD is training to become an academic." Back in the day, so was doing an undergraduate degree. If you wanted a job in industry, that's what you did. University was for academic pursuits. > "It's reasonable to assume that a PhD has lowered themselves to work in industry because they couldn't get a post-doc. Whether that's true or not it starts out the interview on a bad footing." It's not reasonable to assume that at all. Last time I checked, the majority of PhDs leave academia after their degree (they don't want a post-doc - so don't even try). I do understand why non-PhDs in industry may harbour false impressions about the degree and why that can set things off on a bad footing. > "What if a guy walked into your company and said 'I couldn't get a job at Google so I thought I'd try you schmucks'?" This is completely independent of whether or not someone has a PhD. Undergrads can do this too.
    - tomrod 13y ago
      I'm getting mine so I have the toolkit and experience to solve a certain class of problems. It's certainly something I could have taught myself over the years, but at the time and now it makes sense to me (i.e. sunk costs are irrelevant, only a little bit left to finish).
- eriksank 13y ago
  What a derogatory term: "code monkey"! Writing, maintaining and managing source code requires quite a bit of talent. It is not a trivial job. It is often also a very difficult job that most outsiders would be incapable of doing, not even to save themselves from drowning.
  - guerrilla 13y ago
    Thank you for saying this. I've seen this a few times now on HN and really bothers me.
    - nknighthb 13y ago
      It's common industry jargon in the US, tongue-in-cheek like so much other jargon, and widely used by people to describe even their own jobs. You're ascribing a sense of malice to something that carries none.
      - deleted 13y ago
        [deleted]
      - guerrilla 13y ago
        Yes, I'm well familiar with the term. I did not mean to imply it was intended maliciously (nor that it wasn't.) I simply think that it is easy to interpret it as a devaluation of skill. This reactive feeling may just be based on my personal experience, but I also know I'm not the only one.
  - smm2000 13y ago
    It's not really derogatory. It's just self-humiliating humor that is pretty common in many professions.
    - lilsunnybee 13y ago
      self-deprecating
  - sliverstorm 13y ago
timr 13y ago
"Typically a PhD doesn't make you a better software engineer, so why pay more (other than its expected)?" I don't know if a PhD makes you a better writer of code, but it definitely makes you more determined, focused and unflappable person. (That's pretty much all it does, actually. Everything else is a stereotype.) These are all qualities that are worth buying in an actual engineer.

sliverstorm 13y ago

Simple suggestion: Perhaps they heard that PhD's make 1.5X, and haven't yet realized that the PhD's making 1.5X are solving the hard problems, not working as code monkeys? Thus they assume that the degree simply merits 1.5X for the same work.

anologwintermut 13y ago
Possible, but I'd imagine unlikely. Why would a PhD apply for a code monkey job? Most don't do so intentionally, certainly they didn't get a PhD to become a code monkey. So if they are willingly doing so, they probably exhausted all alternative career options or think they have. In which case, while they may ask for more money, I don't think they would actually turn down the job if denied.
- sliverstorm 13y ago
  certainly they didn't get a PhD to become a code monkey Well, what did they get it to become? I bet most of them don't even know. I know I contemplated a graduate degree, and if I had done it, it would have been for love of the material and love of learning, not because I knew precisely what I was going to do with it.
  - eli_gottlieb 13y ago
    Well the whole problem with "knowing what you'll do with a PhD" is, if we knew how research was going to turn out, we wouldn't have to do it. A PhD is training to probe into the unknown, which means that the economic yields of research are, by definition, unknown, which means finding jobs for researchers at for-profit businesses is hard.
    - sliverstorm 13y ago
      I get that. Which is exactly why it is feasible to me that a PhD might wind up applying for code monkey jobs.
    - foobarbazqux 13y ago
      Since it's a hard problem, it sounds like someone should write their PhD thesis on finding jobs for researchers at for-profit businesses.
      - selimthegrim 13y ago
        I believe S. Brin and L. Page have locked that dissertation topic up.....but might take a while to submit.
    - gaius 13y ago
      No, a PhD is training to become an academic. It's reasonable to assume that a PhD has lowered themselves to work in industry because they couldn't get a post-doc. Whether that's true or not it starts out the interview on a bad footing. What if a guy walked into your company and said "I couldn't get a job at Google so I thought I'd try you schmucks"?
      - amirmc 13y ago
        > " ... a PhD is training to become an academic." Back in the day, so was doing an undergraduate degree. If you wanted a job in industry, that's what you did. University was for academic pursuits. > "It's reasonable to assume that a PhD has lowered themselves to work in industry because they couldn't get a post-doc. Whether that's true or not it starts out the interview on a bad footing." It's not reasonable to assume that at all. Last time I checked, the majority of PhDs leave academia after their degree (they don't want a post-doc - so don't even try). I do understand why non-PhDs in industry may harbour false impressions about the degree and why that can set things off on a bad footing. > "What if a guy walked into your company and said 'I couldn't get a job at Google so I thought I'd try you schmucks'?" This is completely independent of whether or not someone has a PhD. Undergrads can do this too.
  - tomrod 13y ago
    I'm getting mine so I have the toolkit and experience to solve a certain class of problems. It's certainly something I could have taught myself over the years, but at the time and now it makes sense to me (i.e. sunk costs are irrelevant, only a little bit left to finish).
eriksank 13y ago
What a derogatory term: "code monkey"! Writing, maintaining and managing source code requires quite a bit of talent. It is not a trivial job. It is often also a very difficult job that most outsiders would be incapable of doing, not even to save themselves from drowning.
- guerrilla 13y ago
  Thank you for saying this. I've seen this a few times now on HN and really bothers me.
  - nknighthb 13y ago
    It's common industry jargon in the US, tongue-in-cheek like so much other jargon, and widely used by people to describe even their own jobs. You're ascribing a sense of malice to something that carries none.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
    - guerrilla 13y ago
      Yes, I'm well familiar with the term. I did not mean to imply it was intended maliciously (nor that it wasn't.) I simply think that it is easy to interpret it as a devaluation of skill. This reactive feeling may just be based on my personal experience, but I also know I'm not the only one.
- smm2000 13y ago
  It's not really derogatory. It's just self-humiliating humor that is pretty common in many professions.
  - lilsunnybee 13y ago
    self-deprecating
- sliverstorm 13y ago

timr 13y ago

"Typically a PhD doesn't make you a better software engineer, so why pay more (other than its expected)?" I don't know if a PhD makes you a better writer of code, but it definitely makes you more determined, focused and unflappable person. (That's pretty much all it does, actually. Everything else is a stereotype.) These are all qualities that are worth buying in an actual engineer.