6 ms·

So I had to create a throwaway account since this is kind of a sensitive subject, but: Why do so many people in the Western hemisphere use toilet paper? If you

So I had to create a throwaway account since this is kind of a sensitive subject, but: Why do so many people in the Western hemisphere use toilet paper? If you had fecal matter on your hand, would you wash it, or just wipe it with some paper and call it good? I've never actually understood this, and it leads to questionable personal hygiene. (Let's just say I put a finger somewhere during..um..and it didn't exactly come out clean.) The ideal way to wash is with water, and maybe afterwards pat down with some TP to dry off. That's what a lot of South Asian countries and the Japanese do. I hope the American and European people learn to do this simple trick some day. Might help decrease the use of this ridiculous anachronism and save some trees.

kmfrk 13y ago
Maybe the water isn't clean enough in many Venezuelan households. You don't tend to see bidets in a lot of places, but you can basically spend $20 on a simple add-on to your toilet and go paper-free, if you want.
- oleganza 13y ago
  So if you have not-clean-enough water in your tap, you'd wipe out shit from your hand with a paper instead of washing it off? The water then must be more dirty than whatever you got on your hand then.
antr 13y ago
I don't know why I know this, but I'm pretty certain most of the toilet paper is produced from tree farms, not impacting on deforestation. Have a read in the annual reports, CSR reports, of toilet papers manufacturers such as Kruger, P&G, Kimberly Clark, etc. Btw, I spotted a flaw in the "hand + water " argument... how do you make sure the tap is clean after washing your hands?
- iopq 13y ago
  left hand for the butt, right hand for everything else
  - antr 13y ago
    how can you be sure everybody does the same thing? what if the toilet is used by someone who is missing their upper left limb? ... http://www.fastcoexist.com/3016889/visualized/this-infographic-explains-how-much-poor-sanitation-costs-the-world-260-billion-a- http://www.fastcoexist.com/3016889/visualized/this-infograph...
    - greglindahl 13y ago
      It's a cultural taboo to eat with your left hand in most countries. Just not the one you live in.
      - antr 13y ago
        In the U.S. is taboo to eat with the left hand?
_delirium 13y ago
It's reasonably common in southern Europe to have bidets in the bathroom for that purpose. You're right that they're uncommon in the US and northern Europe, though.
clarry 13y ago
We use toilet paper to wipe our butts, not our hands. So we shouldn't get fecal matter on our hands to begin with. Though we still wash our hands afterwards. How do you wash your butt with water? I wash my body parts (in shower) using my hands to rub. Should I apply my hands on butt at loo? Sometimes I do it, but that's only when paper doesn't do a good job. But then my hand is in direct contact with fecal matter and there's a good risk of getting it under fingernails too. Of course I wash my hands as well as I can afterwards, but regularly dirtying them that way does sound like questionable personal hygiene. (I can't believe I'm discussing this on HN.)
- notahacker 13y ago
  A high pressure hose, accurately directed, works wonders. Though some paper to wipe afterwards helps. They're common enough in Asia to make me wonder why Europe hasn't caught on - at least in hotels and public bathrooms. (I can't believe the level of discussion around toilet paper is more sophisticated than the discussion on the associated socioeconomic issues...)
  - ballard 13y ago
    Picking one or the other is a trade-off of effectiveness of water jet vs direct action and yet another part to clean. TP does create waste, as do wipes, so water jet is an environmental win and possibly sanitation one as well. TP and wipes are great for business. In the West, it's generally considered faux pas disgusting to not meaningfully wash your hands before leaving a public restroom, regardless of business. (Turning on the water doesn't count.) What's the perception of hand-washing etiquette elsewhere?
GrinningFool 13y ago
No need for a throwaway account, seems to me - discussing hygiene shouldn't be a sensitive matter. > If you had fecal matter on your hand, would you wash it, or just wipe it with some paper and call it good? Yep, never understood this myself. Then I discovered disposable wet wipes followed by a bit of TP to dry off. The equivalent of wiping with a clean soapy cloth. Next best thing to a full cleaning in the shower and uses less paper-like material by far.
hncomment 13y ago
As a North American who enjoys discussing taboo subjects clinically and honestly, and in the interest of cultural understanding, I would explain it as: Cleanliness standards for the hands are much higher than for the rectum area. For hands, not just water but soap is expected, after any work with biologically-suspect materials or surfaces (raw foods, places of illness, bathroom visits). But for "down below," the paper-wipe is considered sufficient, with usual assumptions about clothing, bathing schedule, etc. The paper enables wiping until there's no trace (on the white paper) of any feces. The seated toilet (less common in other regions) helped spread open the rear cheeks; after standing any surfaces that were only-paper-wiped seem very nearly 'retracted' so as to not even be in contact with underwear. Within 12-24 hours, a full-body bathe and freshly-cleaned clothes are likely. Still, those with predictable bowel movements may time them so they immediately precede a daily shower. In many bathrooms the sink is close enough to allow wetting toilet paper for part of the cleanup, and prepackaged moistened wipes are rising in popularity, and have long been used for messy-baby-cleanup. Turning things around and looking at rinse-cultures, I'm probably not alone among North Americans in wondering: (1) Doesn't the spray get droplets of feces-water mix everywhere? (Supposedly ideal bathroom hygiene is to close the toilet lid before flushing, to avoid sending a mist of toilet water into the air. Any forced-water rinsing seems to guarantee a mixed-mist reaches everywhere, including parts of the buttocks and legs far from the rectum that are never contaminated by paper-wiping.) (2) Short of absolutely drenching yourself with multiple power rinses, how do you know you're "done" - that none of the remaining dampness is still fecal-contaminated water? (White paper provides a visual completion indicator.) (3) My very rough impression is that fecally-transmitted diseases (typhoid, hepatitis, cholera, anything diarrhea-causing, etc.) are more prevalent in rinse-cultures. Are you sure that "a lot of South Asian countries" should be the "ideal way to wash" model, as opposed to the other way around? (North American practice would change very fast if there were evidence paper-wiping was insufficient to protect health.)
- cabalamat 13y ago
  > Still, those with predictable bowel movements may time them so they immediately precede a daily shower. Do people actually do this? It seem to me a bit, well, anal.
- 13y ago
mikeash 13y ago
I wash my hand rather than merely wiping it because I'm going to use my hand to touch other things afterwards, like food. Until and unless people are picking up food with their butts before eating it, the comparison is nonsensical.

kmfrk 13y ago

Maybe the water isn't clean enough in many Venezuelan households. You don't tend to see bidets in a lot of places, but you can basically spend $20 on a simple add-on to your toilet and go paper-free, if you want.

oleganza 13y ago
So if you have not-clean-enough water in your tap, you'd wipe out shit from your hand with a paper instead of washing it off? The water then must be more dirty than whatever you got on your hand then.

antr 13y ago

I don't know why I know this, but I'm pretty certain most of the toilet paper is produced from tree farms, not impacting on deforestation. Have a read in the annual reports, CSR reports, of toilet papers manufacturers such as Kruger, P&G, Kimberly Clark, etc. Btw, I spotted a flaw in the "hand + water " argument... how do you make sure the tap is clean after washing your hands?

iopq 13y ago
left hand for the butt, right hand for everything else
- antr 13y ago
  how can you be sure everybody does the same thing? what if the toilet is used by someone who is missing their upper left limb? ... http://www.fastcoexist.com/3016889/visualized/this-infographic-explains-how-much-poor-sanitation-costs-the-world-260-billion-a- http://www.fastcoexist.com/3016889/visualized/this-infograph...
  - greglindahl 13y ago
    It's a cultural taboo to eat with your left hand in most countries. Just not the one you live in.
    - antr 13y ago
      In the U.S. is taboo to eat with the left hand?

_delirium 13y ago

It's reasonably common in southern Europe to have bidets in the bathroom for that purpose. You're right that they're uncommon in the US and northern Europe, though.

clarry 13y ago

We use toilet paper to wipe our butts, not our hands. So we shouldn't get fecal matter on our hands to begin with. Though we still wash our hands afterwards. How do you wash your butt with water? I wash my body parts (in shower) using my hands to rub. Should I apply my hands on butt at loo? Sometimes I do it, but that's only when paper doesn't do a good job. But then my hand is in direct contact with fecal matter and there's a good risk of getting it under fingernails too. Of course I wash my hands as well as I can afterwards, but regularly dirtying them that way does sound like questionable personal hygiene. (I can't believe I'm discussing this on HN.)

notahacker 13y ago
A high pressure hose, accurately directed, works wonders. Though some paper to wipe afterwards helps. They're common enough in Asia to make me wonder why Europe hasn't caught on - at least in hotels and public bathrooms. (I can't believe the level of discussion around toilet paper is more sophisticated than the discussion on the associated socioeconomic issues...)
- ballard 13y ago
  Picking one or the other is a trade-off of effectiveness of water jet vs direct action and yet another part to clean. TP does create waste, as do wipes, so water jet is an environmental win and possibly sanitation one as well. TP and wipes are great for business. In the West, it's generally considered faux pas disgusting to not meaningfully wash your hands before leaving a public restroom, regardless of business. (Turning on the water doesn't count.) What's the perception of hand-washing etiquette elsewhere?

GrinningFool 13y ago

No need for a throwaway account, seems to me - discussing hygiene shouldn't be a sensitive matter. > If you had fecal matter on your hand, would you wash it, or just wipe it with some paper and call it good? Yep, never understood this myself. Then I discovered disposable wet wipes followed by a bit of TP to dry off. The equivalent of wiping with a clean soapy cloth. Next best thing to a full cleaning in the shower and uses less paper-like material by far.

hncomment 13y ago

As a North American who enjoys discussing taboo subjects clinically and honestly, and in the interest of cultural understanding, I would explain it as: Cleanliness standards for the hands are much higher than for the rectum area. For hands, not just water but soap is expected, after any work with biologically-suspect materials or surfaces (raw foods, places of illness, bathroom visits). But for "down below," the paper-wipe is considered sufficient, with usual assumptions about clothing, bathing schedule, etc. The paper enables wiping until there's no trace (on the white paper) of any feces. The seated toilet (less common in other regions) helped spread open the rear cheeks; after standing any surfaces that were only-paper-wiped seem very nearly 'retracted' so as to not even be in contact with underwear. Within 12-24 hours, a full-body bathe and freshly-cleaned clothes are likely. Still, those with predictable bowel movements may time them so they immediately precede a daily shower. In many bathrooms the sink is close enough to allow wetting toilet paper for part of the cleanup, and prepackaged moistened wipes are rising in popularity, and have long been used for messy-baby-cleanup. Turning things around and looking at rinse-cultures, I'm probably not alone among North Americans in wondering: (1) Doesn't the spray get droplets of feces-water mix everywhere? (Supposedly ideal bathroom hygiene is to close the toilet lid before flushing, to avoid sending a mist of toilet water into the air. Any forced-water rinsing seems to guarantee a mixed-mist reaches everywhere, including parts of the buttocks and legs far from the rectum that are never contaminated by paper-wiping.) (2) Short of absolutely drenching yourself with multiple power rinses, how do you know you're "done" - that none of the remaining dampness is still fecal-contaminated water? (White paper provides a visual completion indicator.) (3) My very rough impression is that fecally-transmitted diseases (typhoid, hepatitis, cholera, anything diarrhea-causing, etc.) are more prevalent in rinse-cultures. Are you sure that "a lot of South Asian countries" should be the "ideal way to wash" model, as opposed to the other way around? (North American practice would change very fast if there were evidence paper-wiping was insufficient to protect health.)

cabalamat 13y ago
> Still, those with predictable bowel movements may time them so they immediately precede a daily shower. Do people actually do this? It seem to me a bit, well, anal.
13y ago

mikeash 13y ago

I wash my hand rather than merely wiping it because I'm going to use my hand to touch other things afterwards, like food. Until and unless people are picking up food with their butts before eating it, the comparison is nonsensical.