7 ms·

I think he's completely off base to be honest, I think in the coming years Surface like devices will replace the traditional desktop, and unless Linux moves qui

by MLR 13y ago

I think he's completely off base to be honest, I think in the coming years Surface like devices will replace the traditional desktop, and unless Linux moves quickly, there's no way that space will be anything but Windows dominated. With Windows 8.1 out soon, which improves Windows 8 massively, I see it continuing to dominate into the future where desktops become increasingly marginalised.

boost_ 13y ago
how would surface like devices ever replace the traditional desktop? they allow no upgrades and pc gaming without a physical keyboard/mouse is just impossible.
- blah32497 13y ago
  You're missing the point. Most people don't have a dedicated computer to play pc games. They have one machines that they use to browse, email and play. The argument is that in the near future virtually all of those systems will have touch as part of the UI (not necessarily to replace the keyboard and mouse entirely, but as an added feature). Because Windows 8 is a significant step forward in touch based UI, when you buy you're next laptop/desktop you will be installing Windows 8 on it. You definitely won't be installing linux.
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    The kind of gamers that Valve courts are the sort of people who still build their own PCs, and who still interact with their computer through game controllers and keyboard/mouse. You aren't going to replace TF2 or Skyrim input with touch-based input. Notta gonna happen. Just look at the games that Microsoft is currently peddling with their App Store. This stuff is not a competitor to Steam. It isn't even in the same market.
  - EpicEng 13y ago
    Yeah... you're focusing on the world of Candy Crush and <insert crappy in game purchase model game here> type games. Sure, huge market, also completely and utterly separated from the world of real gamers by a massive void of nothingness. There is of course overlap, but I'm not playing mobile games on my PC and I'm certainly not playing Arkham Origins or FFIV on some tiny tablet.
  - keypusher 13y ago
    This isn't about "most people". This is about pc gamers, who still build their own boxes and are even borderline fanatical about their hardware. They aren't going to Best Buy and coming home with a touch UI by mistake. They are ordering parts from Newegg and building liquid cooling rigs in their basement.
DannyBee 13y ago
"With Windows 8.1 out soon, which improves Windows 8 massively, I see it continuing to dominate into the future where desktops become increasingly marginalised." Why? Why does anyone care what it runs? Why would OEM's want to try to sell it?
EpicEng 13y ago
You're talking about two completely different market segments. There is a huge difference between the requirements of "casual" gamers (I.e., I play games primarily on my phone/tablet) and "real" gamers like me. I don't see myself playing WoW on a tablet anytime soon, if ever.
- Zikes 13y ago
  While your point is valid, I wish you had worded that better. Yes, a modern tablet device could never compare to an equally modern desktop PC in terms of power and capacity. They're in entirely different leagues. The sorts of games able to run on the latter could never run on the former, i.e. you won't be seeing a game like Beyond: Two Souls or Destiny on a tablet for many years to come, not without some serious stripping of features, content, and graphics performance.
  - EpicEng 13y ago
    Not sure what was wrong with my wording, but you're still missing the most crucial bit. It's not simply a matter of horsepower. I don't care if you beef up a tablet to perform as well as my custom desktop; playing complex games on a tablet is just impractical and always will be. Take WoW again as an example; I need a keyboard for my many (many) keybinds, a mouse for movement (because keyboard turners are just bad), and, really; an 8" monitor? Please. Tablets are simply a non-starter for complex (in terms of input and required reaction speed) games. Tablet gaming is for my Mom and myself when I'm bored waiting at an airport. Sure, it's a huge market, but not all gamers are satisfied with Candy Crush. As an aside, I would love for you to enlighten me as to how my first post could be improved.
    - Zikes 13y ago
      The distinction between "casual" and "real" gaming is entirely facetious, and can actually do more harm to the credibility of your statements than anything. Games are games and come in all shapes and sizes. I also have to disagree with your dismissal of horsepower as the root of the issue, because I can currently hook up any keyboard, mouse, or even game controller I want to my phone or tablet. Additionally, some portable devices are capable of hooking up to a larger screen via a microHDMI port. Their only limitation, then, would be the internal hardware components that ultimately add up to their "horsepower", with the added advantage of portability.
Mikeb85 13y ago
Really? The Surface has been a complete and utter failure. Not to mention, the ARM version of the Surface won't run Steam, and games for Windows RT are far fewer than for proper Windows 8. Fact is, the best interfaces for serious gamers are either keyboard + mouse, or a game pad. Even if touch was the next big input, Linux has it, and Canonical is talking about merging Ubuntu touch into Ubuntu desktop in 14.04.
- MLR 13y ago
  My bad, I should've really explained it better in the opening post. How I see things going, though of course I could be wrong, is that at home you'll probably just have a monitor, with your KB/Mouse setup of course, and you'll just plug your Surface like device into it. I think the Console ideology this gen also supports my point somewhat, they didn't go all out for power with a big complicated architecture, they're just using x86 with a low power processor designer. Plus with the tapering off with graphics gains that we're seeing you'll be able to create a fairly similar experience to the high end on lower power devices, which I think will benefit that type of device. Also I also think Windows RT was a bad idea, they should've just gone all in with the Surface Pro, which I think is the future honestly.
  - Mikeb85 13y ago
    This may be the future. Ubuntu is already going this direction, with Ubuntu on Android, Ubuntu mobile, the desktop of course and it's all going to be merged together...
    - jlgreco 13y ago
      Meanwhile, didn't Ubuntu recently, rather publicly, fail a crowdsourcing campaign because they couldn't find enough people who actually care about their mobile proposal? Yeah... I'm just not seeing that stuff as the future. Maybe this will seem like a very foolish comment in 3 or 4 years, but I doubt it.
      - Mikeb85 13y ago
devx 13y ago
What exactly do you mean by "Surface-like" devices? You mean more touch-oriented devices? In that case, I'm pretty sure Android will be the one dominating: http://www.businessinsider.com/microsofts-biggest-problem-in-one-chart-2013-9 http://www.businessinsider.com/microsofts-biggest-problem-in... If you're talking about "also having desktop mode", Microsoft is only going to push that into the background with each new version of Windows, until desktop mode becomes like DOS - dead and buried.
- MLR 13y ago
  I was thinking more of running a full desktop OS on a tablet device yeah, I think MS will be smart enough to keep it around, it's a very good feature.
  - EpicEng 13y ago
    A "full desktop OS" on hardware which lacks the horsepower, input mechanisms, and screen real estate required to compete with desktop gaming systems.
    - MLR 13y ago
      The very first version of the Surface Pro can run most Source engine games fairly well at the moment, and that's a situation which will improve rapidly if they keep iterating. As to input mechanisms and screen real estate, it's still a Windows PC, that means it comes with all the advantages of one.
      - EpicEng 13y ago
        The important bit is that it's not a system any serious gamer would ver consider using, even if t could handle modern games.
simonh 13y ago
Tablets are the future and Windiws 8 will dominate. Got it! Can't help thinking there's a Linux kernel based OS by some internet company already out there that's selling on a few tablets. Obviously it can't be selling as many tablets as the continuing-to-dominate Windows so it must be an aberration. And there's another unix based OS out there doing even better, from some company in Cupertino I think. What are their names again? Never mind, Windows will continue to dominate. On tablets. Right!
- bentcorner 13y ago
  As far as iOS and Android go, IMO Valve sees these as just as bad as Windows, if not worse. In the market of "Tablets on which you can game through Steam", the GP is speculating that Windows will continue to be the leader.
  - Dylan16807 13y ago
    Android doesn't stop you from installing a steam store; are you sure about that?
    - bentcorner 13y ago
      I don't have an android device, but from the looks of things it's like the iOS app - the store is there but it's only to shop for PC games. You can't install anything. I could be wrong, though.
      - Dylan16807 13y ago
        I'm ignoring whatever steam actually offers; I'm only talking about the capabilities of android. You can easily install third party stores, so it's a much better situation than iOS or Metro.
- MLR 13y ago
  I wasn't referring to the the market that Android and IOS are competing in, as this post was about traditional non-touch games I was talking more about the desktop/laptop space and the associated products. In that regard I do think Windows will dominate, and in the future Surface devices will probably replace laptops in their market.
keypusher 13y ago
You're going to be running cutting edge games on a Surface? I don't think so. Perhaps in 5 years you could stuff enough electronics in a box the size of a tablet to run current games of today at max settings on something like an Occulus Rift. But then what about the new games 5 years from now? PC Gaming is an arms race which has always required expensive and significant hardware to enjoy at the top level. I don't see tablets replacing that anytime soon.
- bentcorner 13y ago
  > You're going to be running cutting edge games on a Surface? I don't think so. You can run some pretty decent games on the hardware that ships on the Surface Pro. Sure, you aren't going to want to play BF4 or whatever Bethesda comes up with next, but as hardware cycles continue the playable-game-gap between desktop/laptop/tablet is only going to shrink. I game today on a 1.5 yr old HP laptop with an ATI 6750M card inside, and it's more than adequate for stuff I've thrown at it. Sure, I'm not gaming on ultra, but my FPS is just fine at low/medium. These days games look just fine at those detail levels, although maybe it's just that I used to play Doom on a 33Mhz 386 and had to shrink the screen size to about a 2x2" square to get decent frame rates.
r00fus 13y ago
Here's the problem Valve faces - All the major tablet platforms (iOS, Google Play, KindleFire/Android, Win8 RT) have app stores dedicated for that device. Some allow side-loading but that freedom could quickly disappear. This means a number of things: 1) Valve is late to this game and is fighting entrenched existing app stores that sell tons of games 2) Pricing is an issue as these app stores don't really have high ASPs on games - tablet users are cheapskates compared to PC gamers 3) The form factor is wildly different, making it tough/nearly impossible for Valve (and devs) to port. 4) The freedom to side-load for those platforms allowing it may lose it at any time (see: google play services) All of these mean that tablets are not exactly fertile ground for Valve/Steam. As far as they're concerned, the PC (and Linux) is where it's at (I still think they could out-do Ouya/PSVita with a steambox, but seems like the idea is either a non-starter or ahead of it's time).

by MLR 13y ago

boost_ 13y ago

how would surface like devices ever replace the traditional desktop? they allow no upgrades and pc gaming without a physical keyboard/mouse is just impossible.

blah32497 13y ago
You're missing the point. Most people don't have a dedicated computer to play pc games. They have one machines that they use to browse, email and play. The argument is that in the near future virtually all of those systems will have touch as part of the UI (not necessarily to replace the keyboard and mouse entirely, but as an added feature). Because Windows 8 is a significant step forward in touch based UI, when you buy you're next laptop/desktop you will be installing Windows 8 on it. You definitely won't be installing linux.
- jlgreco 13y ago
  The kind of gamers that Valve courts are the sort of people who still build their own PCs, and who still interact with their computer through game controllers and keyboard/mouse. You aren't going to replace TF2 or Skyrim input with touch-based input. Notta gonna happen. Just look at the games that Microsoft is currently peddling with their App Store. This stuff is not a competitor to Steam. It isn't even in the same market.
- EpicEng 13y ago
  Yeah... you're focusing on the world of Candy Crush and <insert crappy in game purchase model game here> type games. Sure, huge market, also completely and utterly separated from the world of real gamers by a massive void of nothingness. There is of course overlap, but I'm not playing mobile games on my PC and I'm certainly not playing Arkham Origins or FFIV on some tiny tablet.
- keypusher 13y ago
  This isn't about "most people". This is about pc gamers, who still build their own boxes and are even borderline fanatical about their hardware. They aren't going to Best Buy and coming home with a touch UI by mistake. They are ordering parts from Newegg and building liquid cooling rigs in their basement.

DannyBee 13y ago

"With Windows 8.1 out soon, which improves Windows 8 massively, I see it continuing to dominate into the future where desktops become increasingly marginalised." Why? Why does anyone care what it runs? Why would OEM's want to try to sell it?

EpicEng 13y ago

You're talking about two completely different market segments. There is a huge difference between the requirements of "casual" gamers (I.e., I play games primarily on my phone/tablet) and "real" gamers like me. I don't see myself playing WoW on a tablet anytime soon, if ever.

Zikes 13y ago
While your point is valid, I wish you had worded that better. Yes, a modern tablet device could never compare to an equally modern desktop PC in terms of power and capacity. They're in entirely different leagues. The sorts of games able to run on the latter could never run on the former, i.e. you won't be seeing a game like Beyond: Two Souls or Destiny on a tablet for many years to come, not without some serious stripping of features, content, and graphics performance.
- EpicEng 13y ago
  Not sure what was wrong with my wording, but you're still missing the most crucial bit. It's not simply a matter of horsepower. I don't care if you beef up a tablet to perform as well as my custom desktop; playing complex games on a tablet is just impractical and always will be. Take WoW again as an example; I need a keyboard for my many (many) keybinds, a mouse for movement (because keyboard turners are just bad), and, really; an 8" monitor? Please. Tablets are simply a non-starter for complex (in terms of input and required reaction speed) games. Tablet gaming is for my Mom and myself when I'm bored waiting at an airport. Sure, it's a huge market, but not all gamers are satisfied with Candy Crush. As an aside, I would love for you to enlighten me as to how my first post could be improved.
  - Zikes 13y ago
    The distinction between "casual" and "real" gaming is entirely facetious, and can actually do more harm to the credibility of your statements than anything. Games are games and come in all shapes and sizes. I also have to disagree with your dismissal of horsepower as the root of the issue, because I can currently hook up any keyboard, mouse, or even game controller I want to my phone or tablet. Additionally, some portable devices are capable of hooking up to a larger screen via a microHDMI port. Their only limitation, then, would be the internal hardware components that ultimately add up to their "horsepower", with the added advantage of portability.

Mikeb85 13y ago

Really? The Surface has been a complete and utter failure. Not to mention, the ARM version of the Surface won't run Steam, and games for Windows RT are far fewer than for proper Windows 8. Fact is, the best interfaces for serious gamers are either keyboard + mouse, or a game pad. Even if touch was the next big input, Linux has it, and Canonical is talking about merging Ubuntu touch into Ubuntu desktop in 14.04.

MLR 13y ago
My bad, I should've really explained it better in the opening post. How I see things going, though of course I could be wrong, is that at home you'll probably just have a monitor, with your KB/Mouse setup of course, and you'll just plug your Surface like device into it. I think the Console ideology this gen also supports my point somewhat, they didn't go all out for power with a big complicated architecture, they're just using x86 with a low power processor designer. Plus with the tapering off with graphics gains that we're seeing you'll be able to create a fairly similar experience to the high end on lower power devices, which I think will benefit that type of device. Also I also think Windows RT was a bad idea, they should've just gone all in with the Surface Pro, which I think is the future honestly.
- Mikeb85 13y ago
  This may be the future. Ubuntu is already going this direction, with Ubuntu on Android, Ubuntu mobile, the desktop of course and it's all going to be merged together...
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    Meanwhile, didn't Ubuntu recently, rather publicly, fail a crowdsourcing campaign because they couldn't find enough people who actually care about their mobile proposal? Yeah... I'm just not seeing that stuff as the future. Maybe this will seem like a very foolish comment in 3 or 4 years, but I doubt it.
    - Mikeb85 13y ago

devx 13y ago

What exactly do you mean by "Surface-like" devices? You mean more touch-oriented devices? In that case, I'm pretty sure Android will be the one dominating: http://www.businessinsider.com/microsofts-biggest-problem-in-one-chart-2013-9 http://www.businessinsider.com/microsofts-biggest-problem-in... If you're talking about "also having desktop mode", Microsoft is only going to push that into the background with each new version of Windows, until desktop mode becomes like DOS - dead and buried.

MLR 13y ago
I was thinking more of running a full desktop OS on a tablet device yeah, I think MS will be smart enough to keep it around, it's a very good feature.
- EpicEng 13y ago
  A "full desktop OS" on hardware which lacks the horsepower, input mechanisms, and screen real estate required to compete with desktop gaming systems.
  - MLR 13y ago
    The very first version of the Surface Pro can run most Source engine games fairly well at the moment, and that's a situation which will improve rapidly if they keep iterating. As to input mechanisms and screen real estate, it's still a Windows PC, that means it comes with all the advantages of one.
    - EpicEng 13y ago
      The important bit is that it's not a system any serious gamer would ver consider using, even if t could handle modern games.

simonh 13y ago

Tablets are the future and Windiws 8 will dominate. Got it! Can't help thinking there's a Linux kernel based OS by some internet company already out there that's selling on a few tablets. Obviously it can't be selling as many tablets as the continuing-to-dominate Windows so it must be an aberration. And there's another unix based OS out there doing even better, from some company in Cupertino I think. What are their names again? Never mind, Windows will continue to dominate. On tablets. Right!

bentcorner 13y ago
As far as iOS and Android go, IMO Valve sees these as just as bad as Windows, if not worse. In the market of "Tablets on which you can game through Steam", the GP is speculating that Windows will continue to be the leader.
- Dylan16807 13y ago
  Android doesn't stop you from installing a steam store; are you sure about that?
  - bentcorner 13y ago
    I don't have an android device, but from the looks of things it's like the iOS app - the store is there but it's only to shop for PC games. You can't install anything. I could be wrong, though.
    - Dylan16807 13y ago
      I'm ignoring whatever steam actually offers; I'm only talking about the capabilities of android. You can easily install third party stores, so it's a much better situation than iOS or Metro.
MLR 13y ago
I wasn't referring to the the market that Android and IOS are competing in, as this post was about traditional non-touch games I was talking more about the desktop/laptop space and the associated products. In that regard I do think Windows will dominate, and in the future Surface devices will probably replace laptops in their market.

keypusher 13y ago

You're going to be running cutting edge games on a Surface? I don't think so. Perhaps in 5 years you could stuff enough electronics in a box the size of a tablet to run current games of today at max settings on something like an Occulus Rift. But then what about the new games 5 years from now? PC Gaming is an arms race which has always required expensive and significant hardware to enjoy at the top level. I don't see tablets replacing that anytime soon.

bentcorner 13y ago
> You're going to be running cutting edge games on a Surface? I don't think so. You can run some pretty decent games on the hardware that ships on the Surface Pro. Sure, you aren't going to want to play BF4 or whatever Bethesda comes up with next, but as hardware cycles continue the playable-game-gap between desktop/laptop/tablet is only going to shrink. I game today on a 1.5 yr old HP laptop with an ATI 6750M card inside, and it's more than adequate for stuff I've thrown at it. Sure, I'm not gaming on ultra, but my FPS is just fine at low/medium. These days games look just fine at those detail levels, although maybe it's just that I used to play Doom on a 33Mhz 386 and had to shrink the screen size to about a 2x2" square to get decent frame rates.

r00fus 13y ago

Here's the problem Valve faces - All the major tablet platforms (iOS, Google Play, KindleFire/Android, Win8 RT) have app stores dedicated for that device. Some allow side-loading but that freedom could quickly disappear. This means a number of things: 1) Valve is late to this game and is fighting entrenched existing app stores that sell tons of games 2) Pricing is an issue as these app stores don't really have high ASPs on games - tablet users are cheapskates compared to PC gamers 3) The form factor is wildly different, making it tough/nearly impossible for Valve (and devs) to port. 4) The freedom to side-load for those platforms allowing it may lose it at any time (see: google play services) All of these mean that tablets are not exactly fertile ground for Valve/Steam. As far as they're concerned, the PC (and Linux) is where it's at (I still think they could out-do Ouya/PSVita with a steambox, but seems like the idea is either a non-starter or ahead of it's time).