5 ms·

The immigration laws do not distinguish based on the label you attach to your employment status. A non-citizen cannot legally perform work in the United States

The immigration laws do not distinguish based on the label you attach to your employment status. A non-citizen cannot legally perform work in the United States without an immigration status that explicitly allows it (e.g. permanent residency or some form of work visa). Neither ICE nor the courts will be impressed with the argument that you don't call yourself an employee. They don't care. You're performing work in the United States. Nothing else is relevant.

einhverfr 13y ago
My points are: 1. They can deport you anyway. 2. It isn't clear that the LLC is violating any laws for having corporate officers who run afoul with immigration laws. 3. It isn't clear that the corporate officer is subjected to any additional penalties for such work. If you aren't going to spend an additional day in jail or have additional legal sanctions for certain behavior, then the argument is entirely academic. In short, yes they can throw them out of the country. My question is.... What other penalties come up for doing the work? If there are none, then it doesn't matter, the only real crime is overstaying the visa, entering illegally, or the like. And yes immigration can make their lives worse if they want to return. But immigration can do this even if no laws have been broken. So my question: What, if any, additional penalties attach to an illegal immigrant for the actions of serving as a corporate officer?
- nknighthb 13y ago
  > 2. It isn't clear that the LLC is violating any laws for having corporate officers who run afoul with immigration laws. Corporate officers are just as much employees as anyone else. Where is this idea that they're something else coming from? By the way, 8 USC 1325(d): "Any individual who knowingly establishes a commercial enterprise for the purpose of evading any provision of the immigration laws shall be imprisoned for not more than 5 years, fined in accordance with title 18, or both."
  - einhverfr 13y ago
    regarding 8 USC 1325(d), the plain language seems to suggest that merely starting a business in order to earn money is not what is barred by the law, but rather trying to fraudulantly start a business so as to engage in fraud regarding entrepreneurship visas. This would seem to parallel 8 USC 1325 (c) which is clearly intended to target straw marriages existing solely for immigration reasons. Note that neither of these provisions only targets the immigrant party. Both appear to target US citizens as well (for example, agreeing to a sham marriage or a sham business deal aimed at an immigrant visa).
    - nknighthb 13y ago
      "entrepreneurship visas" are not mentioned, "immigration laws" are. The fact that these provisions apply to both immigrants and citizens is irrelevant to the point.
      - einhverfr 13y ago
        But the statute is aimed at fraud right? You can't accidently commit fraud.
e12e 13y ago
This is interesting. By that argument, everyone visiting open source conference "sprints" should be deported? For that matter, if I travel, and happen to do work while in another country that would also be in violation of immigration laws? I guess at least visiting heads of state get a diplomatic waver... (Yes, I'm being snarky, but I'm also serious -- I wonder what the the technicalities actually are -- never mind that you'll probably only be deported if you're doing blue collar work...)
- einhverfr 13y ago
  Also note that uncompensated amateur performances are ok, but paid ones are not. So presumably if you are doing symbolic work without pay (say, the first shovel of a groundbreaking) the fact that they could be paying someone doesn't make it employment. This leads to all kinds of interesting questions. If you are an artist and here on a business visa, are you allowed to paint on your own canvas? Are you allowed to buy or sell paintings that you paint here in the US? I would think so. You might not be able to paint a mural for hire though.
  - dalke 13y ago
    http://ciudadjuarez.usconsulate.gov/hnivb1.html http://ciudadjuarez.usconsulate.gov/hnivb1.html lists many categories of people who may be in the US under a B1 visa: > Artists: An artist coming to the United States to paint, sculpt, etc. who is not under contract with a U.S. employer and who does not intend to regularly sell such art-work in the United States.
    - einhverfr 13y ago
      That's more permissive than I would have expected.
- nknighthb 13y ago
  > By that argument, everyone visiting open source conference "sprints" should be deported? By which argument? What job are they doing? Who's paying them? If they're making money off it, then yes, they probably should be deported. If they're doing work someone else could be making money off of, they should also probably be deported. > For that matter, if I travel, and happen to do work while in another country that would also be in violation of immigration laws? You would have to consult the laws of the other country in question. I'm sure the only way you could even possibly hope to make this argument in the US is if the company has no US suppliers, customers, or other US-related interests whatsoever. But even that is extremely doubtful. The general rule for immigration is this: If it's not authorized, it's unauthorized. Unless you have clearly and unambiguously established that it's authorized, don't do it. > I guess at least visiting heads of state get a diplomatic waver... Hardly. In the US, they'll need an A visa, just like every other visiting official. http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_2637.html http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_2637.html

einhverfr 13y ago

My points are: 1. They can deport you anyway. 2. It isn't clear that the LLC is violating any laws for having corporate officers who run afoul with immigration laws. 3. It isn't clear that the corporate officer is subjected to any additional penalties for such work. If you aren't going to spend an additional day in jail or have additional legal sanctions for certain behavior, then the argument is entirely academic. In short, yes they can throw them out of the country. My question is.... What other penalties come up for doing the work? If there are none, then it doesn't matter, the only real crime is overstaying the visa, entering illegally, or the like. And yes immigration can make their lives worse if they want to return. But immigration can do this even if no laws have been broken. So my question: What, if any, additional penalties attach to an illegal immigrant for the actions of serving as a corporate officer?

nknighthb 13y ago
> 2. It isn't clear that the LLC is violating any laws for having corporate officers who run afoul with immigration laws. Corporate officers are just as much employees as anyone else. Where is this idea that they're something else coming from? By the way, 8 USC 1325(d): "Any individual who knowingly establishes a commercial enterprise for the purpose of evading any provision of the immigration laws shall be imprisoned for not more than 5 years, fined in accordance with title 18, or both."
- einhverfr 13y ago
  regarding 8 USC 1325(d), the plain language seems to suggest that merely starting a business in order to earn money is not what is barred by the law, but rather trying to fraudulantly start a business so as to engage in fraud regarding entrepreneurship visas. This would seem to parallel 8 USC 1325 (c) which is clearly intended to target straw marriages existing solely for immigration reasons. Note that neither of these provisions only targets the immigrant party. Both appear to target US citizens as well (for example, agreeing to a sham marriage or a sham business deal aimed at an immigrant visa).
  - nknighthb 13y ago
    "entrepreneurship visas" are not mentioned, "immigration laws" are. The fact that these provisions apply to both immigrants and citizens is irrelevant to the point.
    - einhverfr 13y ago
      But the statute is aimed at fraud right? You can't accidently commit fraud.

e12e 13y ago

This is interesting. By that argument, everyone visiting open source conference "sprints" should be deported? For that matter, if I travel, and happen to do work while in another country that would also be in violation of immigration laws? I guess at least visiting heads of state get a diplomatic waver... (Yes, I'm being snarky, but I'm also serious -- I wonder what the the technicalities actually are -- never mind that you'll probably only be deported if you're doing blue collar work...)

einhverfr 13y ago
Also note that uncompensated amateur performances are ok, but paid ones are not. So presumably if you are doing symbolic work without pay (say, the first shovel of a groundbreaking) the fact that they could be paying someone doesn't make it employment. This leads to all kinds of interesting questions. If you are an artist and here on a business visa, are you allowed to paint on your own canvas? Are you allowed to buy or sell paintings that you paint here in the US? I would think so. You might not be able to paint a mural for hire though.
- dalke 13y ago
  http://ciudadjuarez.usconsulate.gov/hnivb1.html http://ciudadjuarez.usconsulate.gov/hnivb1.html lists many categories of people who may be in the US under a B1 visa: > Artists: An artist coming to the United States to paint, sculpt, etc. who is not under contract with a U.S. employer and who does not intend to regularly sell such art-work in the United States.
  - einhverfr 13y ago
    That's more permissive than I would have expected.
nknighthb 13y ago
> By that argument, everyone visiting open source conference "sprints" should be deported? By which argument? What job are they doing? Who's paying them? If they're making money off it, then yes, they probably should be deported. If they're doing work someone else could be making money off of, they should also probably be deported. > For that matter, if I travel, and happen to do work while in another country that would also be in violation of immigration laws? You would have to consult the laws of the other country in question. I'm sure the only way you could even possibly hope to make this argument in the US is if the company has no US suppliers, customers, or other US-related interests whatsoever. But even that is extremely doubtful. The general rule for immigration is this: If it's not authorized, it's unauthorized. Unless you have clearly and unambiguously established that it's authorized, don't do it. > I guess at least visiting heads of state get a diplomatic waver... Hardly. In the US, they'll need an A visa, just like every other visiting official. http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_2637.html http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/types/types_2637.html