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E-ZPasses Get Read All Over New York (Not Just At Toll Booths)
- rayiner 13y agoScumbag Puking Monkey: puts wireless tracking/identification device on his car; surprised when he is wirelessly tracked/identified.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- addflip 13y agoOddly enough I just received an email from SunPass(Florida tolls) encouraging me to trade in my old battery operated transmitter that beeps when it's read for one that doesn't. They're even offering to foot the bill. Weird... maybe I'm just being a conspiracy theorist :)
- Stwerp 13y agoI can't find details of his hack, but I am curious if his detector detects actual read events (when his device responds with its ID) or if it is just an RF power detector. Is there a link to a technical description?
- seiji 13y agoCheck out http://www.youtube.com/user/defconpukingmonkey/videos http://www.youtube.com/user/defconpukingmonkey/videos for live demos. His presentation is at https://www.defcon.org/html/links/dc-archives/dc-21-archive.html#pukingmonkey https://www.defcon.org/html/links/dc-archives/dc-21-archive.... (The first section is on license plate readers. ezpass details start on slide 84. He starts with modifying his own ezpass to detect when it's being read then makes his own detector (slide 97) and runs it side by side with the pass. The new detector is much more sensitive and picks up being read basically everywhere.)
- seiji 13y agoHis presentation also featured pictures he took of many NY police's personal cars with deliberately obscured license plates so they can't be automatically read (and other features like illegally too-tinted windows, etc). *edit: found the presentation at https://www.defcon.org/html/links/dc-archives/dc-21-archive.html#pukingmonkey https://www.defcon.org/html/links/dc-archives/dc-21-archive....
- ejfox 13y agoI couldn't find a link in the article- is the presentation available online somewhere?
- HPLovecraft 13y agodumb question maybe -- what does he mean by when he says the license is "salted" is this referring to road salt?
- joezydeco 13y agoYes. it seems to refer to a plate heavily corroded with road deicing salt. A Florida plate would almost never have this problem... =)
- ethomson 13y agoI had thought it was common knowledge that E-ZPasses were used to collect real-time traffic estimates; certainly I've known for years that i-Pass (the Illinois equivalent) was used for this purpose. Unfortunately, some quick googling does not appear to locate any information on this, so now I don't remember where I heard / read this in the first place.
- ChrisAntaki 13y agoFastTrak (used in the SF Bay Area) have a warning, laying this out when you buy the devices. You don't actually need the device though, as each bridge using it also uses cameras to read license plates. It's more convenient this way, as you just need to register your vehicle on their website.
- dsl 13y agoI don't keep plates on my car because of the abundance of plate tracking applications in use by the government and private companies.
- Zelphyr 13y agoSteve? I thought you were dead?
- joe_bleau 13y agoTime for a kickstarter for an e-ink license plate? Tie it to a GPS with known locations of cameras, and change your tag for each picture?
- jlgreco 13y agoThat seems like it would be a great deal more illegal than simply just not having tags.
- pbreit 13y agoIsn't that illegal pretty much everywhere?
- koopajah 13y agoThis reminds of Little Brother by Cory Doctorow that I just read two weeks ago: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/954674.Little_Brother http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/954674.Little_Brother
- masmullin 13y agoI had the same thought. Doctorow provides interesting solutions in the same book IIRC.
- Phargo 13y agoIs there any way to install a switch to kill the tag when you don't plan on using it? If that's possible, how difficult would it be to control this on/off switch with a spare smart phone based on approved GPS location?
- ChrisAntaki 13y agoYes, you can put it in a special bag that blocks its signals. If you buy a FastTrak device for the SF Bay Area, it actually comes in the bag. Still, you have a license plate. (Unless you are like Steve Jobs, and lease a new car every 6 months)
- joezydeco 13y agoThe "special bag" is just an ESD bag, isn't it? You can find these pretty cheap anywhere if you don't have any on hand. http://www.amazon.com/Antistatic-Bags-Resealable-6X10-Pack/dp/B000BSN274 http://www.amazon.com/Antistatic-Bags-Resealable-6X10-Pack/d...
- tjohns 13y agoYup, it's just an ordinary mylar antistatic bag. Pretty much any computer repair store will give them to you for free if you ask, too.
- fnordfnordfnord 13y agoYou could put a shunt across the antenna.
- peckrob 13y agoI had a rental car in Boston a few weeks ago and the rental car came with an EZ-Pass that flipped into a little box. I was told by the rental company that if I didn't want to use it and pay cash tolls, just keep it inside the box. So I'm assuming the box stops the readers from reading the pass. Do they all do this? I live in a state that has exactly two toll roads, so I'm not sure what SOP is for those kind of things.
- 13y ago
- ChrisAntaki 13y agoYour license plate is always visible, it's probably a nicer target for people interested in tracking you. Search for "license plate" on http://www.zdnet.com/wikileaks-uncovers-trapwire-surveillance-faq-7000002513/ http://www.zdnet.com/wikileaks-uncovers-trapwire-surveillanc...
- diminoten 13y agoYet again, we arrive at a, "could" story, and not a "does" story. The NSA "could" have you arrested for a crime you didn't commit by sharing intel it's collected about you! The NYPD "could" use your E-ZPass to track your movements through NYC! Google "could" access your Wi-Fi password as it's synced from your Android device! I think people forget sometimes that 1984 was a work of fiction, and never actually happened.
- Zikes 13y agoThe FBI "could" track your movements via cell phone data. The FBI "could" then provide that data to the DEA to help make an arrest. The NSA "could" keep a log of everyone you ever call or who calls you. Not that we should have ever cared about those possibilities until they came to light, leaving us scrambling to cope with the consequences and attempt to repair the damage after the fact.
- diminoten 13y agoArrests are allowed to happen to innocent people. Arrests aren't convictions, convictions are. People still get trials. They still get due process. If the DEA/FBI can't provide evidence to the state/federal prosecutor such that a person is found guilty of a crime by a jury of his peers, then a person does not get convicted. You're saying the government is committing thought-crime. Just because a person owns a gun doesn't mean they're going to kill their neighbor, and just because the FBI/CIA/NSA/Local PD "could" abuse its power, does not mean they "do".
- Spooky23 13y agoThis isn't news, and hasn't been hidden. EZ pass readers are plainly visible all over the place, including on the BQE in NYC and other places in NY. They give you an ESD bag to put your transmitter in. As part of 511, state DOTs also purchase cell tower data to estimate speed on highways. My understanding is that is where the Google Maps traffic indicators come from.
- fps 13y ago> As part of 511, state DOTs also purchase cell tower data to estimate speed on highways. My understanding is that is where the Google Maps traffic indicators come from. Close, but actually Google gets that data from Android devices that phone home directly to them, not from the cell companies.
- Spooky23 13y agoDidn't realize that. States and regional transportation centers make their data (from carriers and road sensors) available as well.
- fnordfnordfnord 13y agoAs many have stated, this isn't news. There are all sorts of good and proper uses of toll-tags that aren't collecting tolls. There has never been any effort to hide that, nor should there be. The thing I have always been disturbed by WRT toll-tags is that toll-collecting entities flatly refuse to sell one that isn't attached to a person or a vehicle. There are opportunities for profit that have been ignored[1], and I expect that is probably because gov't entities want a high degree of certainty as to who is with the tag. [1] - Prepaid toll-tags could be sold at vending machines for cash (business travelers, philanderers, etc.), but are not.
- ISL 13y agoOne might argue that if the toll-tag isn't being used for tolling alone that it would be better-termed a 'tag'.
- refurb 13y agoThe reason they link a tag to a car is because fees vary by vehicle type (number of axles). If the tags weren't linked to a vehicle, a commercial truck driver could simply buy a tag for a car and pay a whole lot less in tolls.
- fnordfnordfnord 13y agoNo, they couldn't because it would be immediately obvious from the camera footage. Photos are always taken, even when a tag is registered.
- Retric 13y agoBut nobody looks at that footage 99% of the time. Reolistically the only way to do prepaid tags it to bill the maximum amount as truckers would happily say use a car the first time and then use the rest of the cash on the semi unless they checked every time.
- fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
- ISL 13y agoIs there a publicly available standard for interrogating EZ-Pass chips? Does the state have an exclusive license for the band?
- timdellinger 13y agoI'd also be interested in seeing a write-up of the various legal aspects of this: Are private third parties allowed to interact wirelessly with the EZ-Pass? Are people allowed to broadcast signals similar to those that an EZ-Pass unit broadcasts, as long as the intent isn't to fraudulently drive on a toll road without paying toll?
- benguild 13y agoAt one point the ones in California beeped, not sure if the new ones still do but they definitely used to.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- PaulHoule 13y agoYou'll pull my E-Z pass out of my cold dead hands. This is the first piece of vehicle telematics I added when I got a new car. When I was stuck in a traffic jam at an off-ramp near Albany, I realized how I'd make it better for myself and other drivers if I got one. It's particularly good that E-Z Pass uses the same technology as most other states in the Northeast so you can drive the Mass Pike and out to Maine or the other way to Ohio.
- stcredzero 13y agoI have been a user of EZ pass, and it is wonderful from that standpoint. From a security design standpoint, it's a matter of a pointy haired boss reasoning through "out of sight, out of mind."
- gonnakillme 13y agoIt even works in the midwest! I drove to upstate New York from Chicago without paying a single old-fashioned toll a few years ago.
- jlgreco 13y agoDo they work through Illinois? I recall them having their own system for some unknown reason, but I don't know if it is compatible.
- gonnakillme 13y agoIllinois has IPass. IPass definitely works at tolls taking EZPass; I don't know if the reverse is true.
- mkopinsky 13y agoThe reverse is true.
- forgotAgain 13y agoI have to disagree with those who say this isn't news. It was news to me and will, I believe, be news to most others as well. The only time before this that I heard about using EZ pass for anything other than tolls was a few years ago when I read about some feasibility work on the concept of traffic flow optimization being done around Ithaca, NY. I do wonder why they haven't been used yet to track speeding violations. Speed cameras are being installed in Manhattan. EZ passes are supposed to be used in one car only so it can't be lack of ability to isolate the user that's stopping it. For years I've been keeping my EZ pass in a static electricity bag when I'm not anticipating going through tolls. I'll definitely continue to do so. At least until it becomes illegal.
- mcantelon 13y ago>I do wonder why they haven't been used yet to track speeding violations. I'd guess the intelligence use of it is likely more important to the powers that be to risk a backlash against using it to catch speeders.
- diminoten 13y agoWhy are you against having your car tracked? You're in public, aren't you? Why do you think you have a right to privacy in public?
- ChuckMcM 13y agoCan we just not go there? There is a qualitative difference between "being in public" and "being recorded while in public" and "being recorded in public over an extended period of time." You take a picture on the beach and catch me in the frame, I'm totally fine with that, you take pictures of that beach every day for a year and then put IDs on every 'face' so that you've got a history of everyone who has been to the beach, I'm much less comfortable with that, you create an API so that someone can send you a picture of a face and you will give them the history of that face at the beach for the last 12 months, I've got a huge problem with that.
- Retric 13y ago
- joezydeco 13y agoWait until people discover your FM car radio also leaks information. Besides the leaky iPod/SatRadio transmitters, the unit itself gives away the station frequency from the internal oscillator. There's a company already sniffing radios on the road to determine listener demographics among other things. http://masscommandme.wordpress.com/2010/12/02/mobiltraks-listening-to-what-youre-listening-to-sort-of/ http://masscommandme.wordpress.com/2010/12/02/mobiltraks-lis...
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- drjesusphd 13y agoJust to clarify, this is not an intentional design feature. Any reciever is necessarily a transmitter due to the physics itself. The UK has been using this for a while to crack down on TV liscences.
- joezydeco 13y agoI'm skeptical about the License Van thing... "BBC admits that TV detector vans only work because Britons believe they do" http://gadgets.boingboing.net/2008/10/31/bbc-admits-that-tv-d.html http://gadgets.boingboing.net/2008/10/31/bbc-admits-that-tv-...
- drjesusphd 13y agoInteresting, I didn't know that. So they're more like polygraphs.
- jrockway 13y agoWith a good isolation amplifier between your antenna and local oscillator, you don't necessarily transmit much on the frequency you're listening to. (If you did, you'd interfere with other listeners.) Where you transmit also depends very much on the design of the radio you're using; it might be obvious to detect that a radio is being operated, but not detect what frequency it is tuned to. And to be very pedantic, every conductive object in the universe plays some part in any antenna system.
- loganfrederick 13y agoLittle-known, but publicly available, information: The EZ-Pass was originally developed by JPMorgan Chase (my employer) for use with a different client. Just last month, JPMC announced that its patent collection had reached 500, with our patent on EZ-Pass being one of our most successful, and something we still receive licensing fees on. https://www.jpmorgan.com/cm/cs?pagename=JPM_redesign/JPM_Content_C/Generic_Detail_Page_Template&cid=1320519245545&c=JPM_Content_C https://www.jpmorgan.com/cm/cs?pagename=JPM_redesign/JPM_Con...
- mrb 13y agoIn California, our toll transponders (FasTrak) are spuriously read at the LAX airport, merely for tracking reasons, not for billing. Interesting reverse-engineering of FasTrak transponders in 2008: http://rdist.root.org/2008/08/07/fastrak-talk-summary-and-slides/ http://rdist.root.org/2008/08/07/fastrak-talk-summary-and-sl...
- dbloom 13y agoIt's worth surfacing the fact that California's FasTrak transponders beep when they are being read (although it certainly might be possible for the beep to be suppressed). By the way, in addition to LAX, this also happens when you're looping around San Jose Mineta airport (SJC). The airport says that it's to track taxis, limos, and shuttles: http://www.mercurynews.com/search/ci_14885277 http://www.mercurynews.com/search/ci_14885277
- mrb 13y agoFasTrak CAN be read without the transponder beeping (the beep is software-controlled by the reader): the Transportation Corridor Agency themselves explain they are being read at many highway exits to calculate traffic stats. And I have never heard my transponder beep when exiting the highway.
- mbreese 13y agoThe beeping at SJC drives me nuts, since at SFO you can use the FasTrak to pay for parking.
- dandandan 13y agoThey suppress the beeps on the 15 in San Diego. It used to beep at the single tolling location when there was only one (and read many other times for traffic flow / variable toll calculation) but they eliminated it now that there are 10+ points where it is read to determine distance traveled. The only place it beeps in SD is on the 125.
- zippergz 13y agoThe thing at LAX is for tracking buses and taxis, it just uses the same technology as FasTrak, so it makes the transponder beep. It's not even connected to the FasTrak system. It's not for tracking FasTrak users.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- codex 13y agoYour location in a public place is not a secret. It is not legally protected. This is well established by multiple precedents. Heck, FBI agents can legally place a tracking device on your car, without a warrant if they do so while your car is in a public place (http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/01/03/federal-judge-rules-fbi-didnt-need-warrant-to-plant-gps-tracking-device/ http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/01/03/federal-judge-rules-fb...).
- newman314 13y agoNo, it is not. http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/01/supreme-court-holds-warrantless-gps-tracking-unconstitutional/ http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/01/supreme-court-hol...
- codex 13y agoThat ruling did not consider whether a warrant is required, only that the attachment of the device constituted a "search" because the government was trespassing when they installed it (http://lippmannwouldroll.com/2012/01/28/what-the-supreme-courts-gps-case-actually-says/ http://lippmannwouldroll.com/2012/01/28/what-the-supreme-cou...).
- shiven 13y agoThis looks like a potential solution: http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/112 http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/112 Don't know where to buy just the shield though...
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- shitlord 13y agoIMO, this is actually pretty awesome. Maybe in the future, we can produce new EZPasses that do the same thing, except more privacy-oriented: a pass that reports different Tag IDs to traffic monitoring equipment, but keeps reporting the same Tag ID for 1 hour. Or maybe a piece of hardware that can intercept the EZPass signal on its way to the traffic monitoring equipment. Everyone hates traffic and loves complaining about it, but I personally haven't seen a lot of work being done to solve it. And yeah, having people take public transportation helps with congestion, but you're not actually solving anything by doing that, only working around the problem. Maybe it's because I've never worked with any DOTs.
- kazagistar 13y ago> The DoT was not forthcoming about what exactly was read from the passes or how long geolocation information from the passes was kept. Listen up kids. Even if your goals are entirely pure and innocent, this sort of BS just makes you look shady. If you wanna do traffic analysis, sanitize your data ASAP, and purge it as soon as you can, and then when people ask, you can answer questions like this with a clear conscience.