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The worst part is here: > Notably, a much stricter rule was set for US government communications found in the raw intelligence. The Israelis were required to "
by ferdo 13y ago
The worst part is here:
> Notably, a much stricter rule was set for US government communications found in the raw intelligence. The Israelis were required to "destroy upon recognition" any communication "that is either to or from an official of the US government". Such communications included those of "officials of the executive branch (including the White House, cabinet departments, and independent agencies), the US House of Representatives and Senate (member and staff) and the US federal court system (including, but not limited to, the supreme court)".
The NSA is giving intel about officials in the US government to another country, on the honor system.
Snowden and Manning are considered traitors for doing even less.
- torbj0rn 13y agoThe paragraph you cite is worded ambiguously, the Guardian is NOT reporting that the intel the NSA is sharing with Israel is about officials in the US government. Here is the first half of the following paragraph: >It is not clear whether any communications involving members of US Congress or the federal courts have been included in the raw data provided by the NSA, nor is it clear how or why the NSA would be in possession of such communications. Beware the sensationalism in this article. The only fact provided by the Guardian in this article is that NSA shares surveillance data with Israel. It is not known what kind of data is shared.
- lvs 13y agoThis is a bit of a naive statement in light of the other information we have about the scope of collection of raw "SIGINT," as well as the errors that have been admitted to the FISC in targeted collection. And you're also selectively quoting that paragraph, too. > In 2009, however, the New York Times reported on "the agency's attempt to wiretap a member of Congress, without court approval, on an overseas trip".
- ferdo 13y ago> The only fact provided by the Guardian in this article is that NSA shares surveillance data with Israel. Unfiltered data. The other fact shared is that Israelis are on the honor system with the data. As with any other spies, Israeli intel isn't known for its adherence to law or agreements. I think it's safe to assume that Israelis have high access to the same intel the NSA has on American officials.
- madaxe 13y agoI think that what they actually have is probably access to the same systems (i.e. PRISM, Xkeyscore, etc.) as the NSA, with the same level of access.
- guelo 13y agoYou're probably wrong. The NSA analysts' database interface apps are probably only accesible inside NSA secure networks. They are designed for American espionage and have American legal limitations built-in.
- atmosx 13y agoAfter all this, you believe that? Sorry to say, that your level of naïveté is remarkable.
- guelo 13y agoI'm saying that the NSA sends Israel the raw data, as this document says. Israel than probably processes the data using their own systems. There's no reason and no evidence for Israel to use American spy's database applications.
- samstave 13y agoSnowden was able to access all the systems from his outsourced office in Hawaii. The NSA and the Israeli government colluded on creating Stuxnet and Duqu. If you think that israel doesnt have access to NSA systems because they are on a "secure" network, then you're not really paying attention.
- rosser 13y agoThe fact that the agreement calls for Israel to "destroy upon recognition" communications involving USG officials is an acknowledgement that it might happen, which is, itself, an acknowledgement that it will happen.
- jljljl 13y agoAny smart information sharing agreement would cover contingencies like this. Not because they know it _will_ happen, but because they know it _might_ happen. Not making a statement on the information sharing, just pointing out that the existence of a clause within an agreement does not mean the situations that clause covers are going to happen. For example,the iTunes EULA prohibits the software from being used to build weapons of mass destruction < http://www.apple.com/legal/internet-services/itunes/appstore/dev/stdeula/ http://www.apple.com/legal/internet-services/itunes/appstore... >
- bilbo0s 13y ago"_might_" is unacceptable in this case. If it "_might_" happen, then this particular sharing agreement should be scrapped. When it comes to this sort of thing, we need to operate in an environment of guarantees not one of assurances.
- jljljl 13y agoAnd even if there are safeguards in place to prevent this from happening (and I'm sure there are) with 99.99999repeating% accuracy, you still want something in place to mitigate or control risk if the safeguards fail. Which is no doubt what this clause is supposed to do.
- bilbo0s 13y ago99.99999% is not good enough. That's not the way OpSec works guy. I realize my view is strongly informed by the military... but I view this as essentially OpSec for the civilian leadership, and the principles can't be that different. I may be wrong in my interpretation of this as OpSec, but I doubt it. If you need that clause in an agreement, FOR ANY REASON... then you need to re-evaluate the agreement. Full stop.
- BgSpnnrs 13y agoRead the primary source if you prefer... http://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2013/sep/11/nsa-israel-intelligence-memorandum-understanding-document http://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2013/sep/11/nsa...
- anon808 13y agoThe article is pretty specific that the data shared is raw and unfiltered, that by itself is troublesome. Of course you and I will never know exactly what kind of data or whose data is being shared, but it is very troubling that apparently the NSA CAN'T GUARANTEE that the data shared doesn't include that of American citizens (including US officials), and asks the Israeli intelligence services to respect privacy rights without anyway of enforcing that they do. Remember, Israel is a foreign country not bound by the US Constitution.
- slavak 13y agoThe very existence of this data would imply the U.S. government isn't really bound by the constitution anymore, either.
- rdtsc 13y agoExactly. We are sort of beyond that point. And one kind of wonders. Alright, we know how bad it really is. And then another blow comes. What is remarkable is that quite often these revelations come after government officials have revved up their PR machine and have lied about some fact. Before they would tell lies and it was all "Yeah this is rumors, unfounded, disgruntled employee, traitor, communist homosexual etc etc wanted revenge". Now they spew a lie and bam! a new proof of contradiction follows it from Snowden's documents. This must be very infuriating for them. World top intelligence apparatus got its pants pulled down in front of the whole world to laugh at. I wouldn't be surprised if someone out there in Langely, VA is not planning a fatal accident involving Snowden by now. Piano falls on him from 5th floor, hmm, or something ridiculous like that. Something that might "teach" others a lesson perhaps too. I used to think this government wasn't operating like that (obviously through my own naivete) but these days I just don't know.
- AJ007 13y agoRaw intelligence, gathered by the NSA, in bulk, is being sent to a foreign state. Where is the sensationalism? That is about as clear cut as you can get. If you own a company, in the US or otherwise, and you have competitors in Israel you should be concerned.
- rdtsc 13y agoSometimes the level of convoluted arguments and rhetorical gymnastics people go to justify anything Israel related is remarkable. If this was Chile or Brunei you bet there would be 0 apologists here justifying it. "You know I don't condone it wholeheartedly but ... blah blah sensationalized, let's all keep our cool ..." etc etc.
- rdtsc 13y agoPlease point to what is sensationalized and what other sources better than your own hunch and agenda you have that what is presented is not true. Raw leaked Israeli, NSA, or CIA documents are best if possible.
- fiatmoney 13y agoThese are the same guys that "accidentally" wiretapped the entire 202 area code (Washington, DC) in an election year.
- foxylad 13y agoThat stood out to me too. Trusting a foreign intelligence agency to destroy what would probably be the most interesting titbits beggars belief. Given the usual "one rule for us, one rule for the public" I'd be amazed if this stuff isn't carefully filtered for official content before it is sent to others. And it's not just Israel - I'm guessing that the other five eyes all get this stuff too.