4 ms·

> The verb "silence" is not restricted to scenarios in which someone is rendered literally incapable of speech. It never has been. Please clarify, then, about

by lambda 13y ago

> The verb "silence" is not restricted to scenarios in which someone is rendered literally incapable of speech. It never has been. Please clarify, then, about who exactly is being "silenced" and how, and what you mean by "silenced" if it doesn't mean that the person is unable to speak publicly about the topic. > Definitely. The members of the anti-suffrage movement, both men and women, pointed to those female privileges as the primary reason women shouldn't be allowed an equal say in setting the course of government. Wait a minute. Are you actually aligning yourself with the anti-suffrage movement? Are you serious? > Feminists always point to the top of society, notice that there are more men than woman, then use that as evidence that men are more privileged. > However, they never point to the bottom of society, notice that there are more men than women, then use that as evidence that women are more privileged. Wait a second. There can't be more men than women on both the top and bottom of society, as there are more women than men in general. So, let's look at actual numbers from the Census Bureau: http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/data/historical/people.html http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/data/historical/peopl... In the Poverty by Sex chart, in 2011, we see 151 million men, of whom 21 million, or 13.6% are below the poverty line. There are 157 million women, of whom 26 million, or 16.3%, are below the poverty line. Looks to me like in both absolute numbers and percentages, there are more women than men at the "bottom of society". > That's because they have a particular agenda. And that's fine. But it's also fine for people like me to point out that we are allocating an outrageously disproportionately amount of attention, money, time, and energy to women's issues. We spend a lot of time and effort on women's issues because, historically, they have been discriminated against and prevented from holding positions of power, they still make less money for the same work as men, and they are overwhelmingly the victims of domestic violence. There are very few instances of problems that men face specifically, which women don't (or face at much lower proportion), which are not self-imposed (more men in jails is, overwhelmingly, due to more men being violent criminals). You might argue about the draft or issues of being able to be in combat in the military, and there I agree, that should be equal opportunity. However, there hasn't been a draft in 40 years, so unless something big comes up, that's more of a theoretical issue than a practical one.

hacker789 13y ago
> Wait a minute. Are you actually aligning yourself with the anti-suffrage movement? Are you serious? No. (?) All adults should have the right to vote. > Looks to me like in both absolute numbers and percentages, there are more women than men at the "bottom of society". You're not looking low enough. Look at the homeless. Look at homicide victims. Look at workplace deaths (including and excluding the military). Look at high-school dropouts. Look at suicide victims. Look at prisons (both violent and non-violent offenses). It's possible that men are biologically predisposed to violence, but they also live in a culture that coddles women to the detriment of men in need. > We spend a lot of time and effort on women's issues because, historically, they have been discriminated against and prevented from holding positions of power, Historically, almost everyone has been prevented from holding positions of power. The tiny circle of powerful people in each country had penises, but that doesn't mean the lives other penis owners were cushy. Historically, men received significantly more severe punishments for the exact same crimes (still the case), women were given priority over men when provisioning protection and aid (still the case), and men were expected and often forced to perform significantly more brutal and dangerous labor on a daily basis (still the case, though to a lesser extent). As a result, men lived significantly shorter lives, even taking deaths from childbirth into account (still the case, though to a lesser extent). Interestingly, the fact that men live shorter lives doesn't matter to most people. In fact, it's become the expectation: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/04/life-expectancy-map/ http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/04/life-expecta... Here's a direct quote: > In the U.S., women live longer—81 years on average, 76 for men—but a recent study by the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation reveals a troubling trend. Though men's life spans have increased by 4.6 years since 1989, women have gained only 2.7 years "Surreal" is again the most fitting word. > they still make less money for the same work as men, False: http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/08/gender_pay_gap_the_familiar_line_that_women_make_77_cents_to_every_man_s.html http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/08/gende... and http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013/09/11/220748057/why-women-like-me-choose-lower-paying-jobs http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013/09/11/220748057/why-wome... and http://www.politifact.com/virginia/statements/2013/jul/15/terry-mcauliffe/mcauliffe-says-women-earn-77-percent-mens-pay-same/ http://www.politifact.com/virginia/statements/2013/jul/15/te... > and they are overwhelmingly the victims of domestic violence. False, and we've known this for some time: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence#Violence_against_men http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence#Violence_agai... However, women are overwhelmingly victims of serious injury from domestic violence, as that source does indicate. Women and men violently attack each other equally; men simply hurt the women more when they do so. > Please clarify, then, about who exactly is being "silenced" "Check your privilege!" and "stop mansplaining!" are almost exclusively hurled at men discussing gender, not at women discussing gender, though it is equally applicable to both. Hence my phrase "targeted weapon". Of course, the notion of "privilege" could be useful. It could be useful to discuss the specific advantages different people have in specific situations, such as female privileges at universities vs male privileges at universities. Unfortunately, it's almost exclusively employed to bully men into feeling that their objections are automatically invalid and unwelcome unless they conform to specific set of views. > and what you mean by "silenced" if it doesn't mean that the person is unable to speak publicly about the topic. Bullying is silencing -- it's one of the reasons that the bullying of the girl in the linked article is a problem. Bullies don't have to literally sew anyone's mouth shut to dissuade their victims from wanting to speak out again.

by lambda 13y ago

hacker789 13y ago

> Wait a minute. Are you actually aligning yourself with the anti-suffrage movement? Are you serious? No. (?) All adults should have the right to vote. > Looks to me like in both absolute numbers and percentages, there are more women than men at the "bottom of society". You're not looking low enough. Look at the homeless. Look at homicide victims. Look at workplace deaths (including and excluding the military). Look at high-school dropouts. Look at suicide victims. Look at prisons (both violent and non-violent offenses). It's possible that men are biologically predisposed to violence, but they also live in a culture that coddles women to the detriment of men in need. > We spend a lot of time and effort on women's issues because, historically, they have been discriminated against and prevented from holding positions of power, Historically, almost everyone has been prevented from holding positions of power. The tiny circle of powerful people in each country had penises, but that doesn't mean the lives other penis owners were cushy. Historically, men received significantly more severe punishments for the exact same crimes (still the case), women were given priority over men when provisioning protection and aid (still the case), and men were expected and often forced to perform significantly more brutal and dangerous labor on a daily basis (still the case, though to a lesser extent). As a result, men lived significantly shorter lives, even taking deaths from childbirth into account (still the case, though to a lesser extent). Interestingly, the fact that men live shorter lives doesn't matter to most people. In fact, it's become the expectation: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/04/life-expectancy-map/ http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/04/life-expecta... Here's a direct quote: > In the U.S., women live longer—81 years on average, 76 for men—but a recent study by the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation reveals a troubling trend. Though men's life spans have increased by 4.6 years since 1989, women have gained only 2.7 years "Surreal" is again the most fitting word. > they still make less money for the same work as men, False: http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/08/gender_pay_gap_the_familiar_line_that_women_make_77_cents_to_every_man_s.html http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/08/gende... and http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013/09/11/220748057/why-women-like-me-choose-lower-paying-jobs http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2013/09/11/220748057/why-wome... and http://www.politifact.com/virginia/statements/2013/jul/15/terry-mcauliffe/mcauliffe-says-women-earn-77-percent-mens-pay-same/ http://www.politifact.com/virginia/statements/2013/jul/15/te... > and they are overwhelmingly the victims of domestic violence. False, and we've known this for some time: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence#Violence_against_men http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence#Violence_agai... However, women are overwhelmingly victims of serious injury from domestic violence, as that source does indicate. Women and men violently attack each other equally; men simply hurt the women more when they do so. > Please clarify, then, about who exactly is being "silenced" "Check your privilege!" and "stop mansplaining!" are almost exclusively hurled at men discussing gender, not at women discussing gender, though it is equally applicable to both. Hence my phrase "targeted weapon". Of course, the notion of "privilege" could be useful. It could be useful to discuss the specific advantages different people have in specific situations, such as female privileges at universities vs male privileges at universities. Unfortunately, it's almost exclusively employed to bully men into feeling that their objections are automatically invalid and unwelcome unless they conform to specific set of views. > and what you mean by "silenced" if it doesn't mean that the person is unable to speak publicly about the topic. Bullying is silencing -- it's one of the reasons that the bullying of the girl in the linked article is a problem. Bullies don't have to literally sew anyone's mouth shut to dissuade their victims from wanting to speak out again.