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NSA shares raw intelligence including Americans' data with Israel
- venomsnake 13y agoI really like the way Glenn is moving the story. Every new punch is unexpected. And gives enough rope to the Administration to hang themselves. Can by these deals the NSA whitewash intelligence? If something has come from outside sources they can use it.
- slurry 13y agoNormally I can't stand Greenwald because even though he's usually right imho, he has to drama everything up so hard and force everything into a simplistic moral narrative that it's usually not even worth reading him. But in this case, deciding when to strategically leak things, a little theatricality goes a long way, and a metric ton of theatricality goes even longer. And the machine for spinning and glossing over this stuff is so quick and vast that a handy cheap morality play might be all that stands between awareness and total effective oblivion. So, thank FSM for Glenn Greenwald being insufferably obnoxious.
- detcader 13y ago>FSM His ripping of the New Atheists got to you?
- slurry 13y agoNot actually a big fan of the New Atheists. Don't recall reading Greenwald's ripping of them but I'd probably agree with most of it. Other than Citizens United, I can't recall an issue where I've thought Greenwald was wrong on principle. I can recall a lot where I thought he was naive, annoying or obtuse. Sort of like RMS. And in this case, it's a very good thing that he's over the top and naive. Someone who was understated and pragmatic probably wouldn't publish this at all or get as much attention if they did.
- detcader 13y agohere it is http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/03/sam-harris-muslim-animus http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/apr/03/sam-harr...
- ankitml 13y agoApart from attacking the author personally, do you have any stronger argument. Usually stronger argument focuses on the content of article shared.
- slurry 13y agoShorter me: "I think Greenwald is annoying but he's doing a good job with this." Not sure why you'd fix in on "Greenwald is annoying".
- devx 13y agoIf you can assume the worst about dragnet surveillance - NSA has already done it. That would be a pretty safe bet at this point.
- loceng 13y agoAs far as I know they haven't selected a portion of the population based on certain beliefs and murdered them. Obviously an organization could attempt to do this with public information, though I imagine the NSA knows where most people are most of the time - and their home addresses, or where they will be, etc.. Not meaning to jump into conspiracy, though this has happened in the past.
- malandrew 13y agoWell there are already clear examples of people being targeted for laptop border searches in a premeditated fashion. i.e. I can't get a warrant for the computer of citizen X, but I know s/he will be traveling outside the country and coming back on date Y through airport Z. Since constitutional rights aren't respected at borders, I can simply instruct airport Z to detain citizen X, and seize their computer equipment and copy it. This isn't even just about what happened in the UK with David Miranda. There is at least one well documented case here in the US involving a guy named David House. These actions are definitely a step along the slippery slope of legitimizing other practices. Plus, it is entirely possible that our intelligence agencies have already targeted some individuals very specifically for neutralization somehow. We can only confirm that they have not done so through transparency and oversight.
- aspensmonster 13y ago>Through counter-intelligence, it should be possible to pinpoint potential troublemakers and neutralize them.
- toyg 13y agoJacob Applebaum has been targeted in this way as well, afaik, as well as anybody vaguely related to Wikileaks.
- aspensmonster 13y ago50 points, 3 hours ago, not on front page. Definitely nothing screwy going on here. Regardless, here's the link to the memorandum: https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.documentcloud.org/documents/785495/doc1.pdf https://s3.amazonaws.com/s3.documentcloud.org/documents/7854... My favorite part: >1.d) This agreement is not intended to create any legally enforceable rights and shall not be construed to be either an international agreement or a legally binding instrument according to international law. Hey Israel, we're totally against you violating the constitutional rights of American citizens --to say nothing of the human rights of all people-- but it's not like this is a "legally binding instrument" or anything. Just don't be bad, m'kay? M'kay.
- ferdo 13y agoThere was a report about 12 years ago on the Israeli company Amdocs that is enlightening: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H20Naj176M0 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H20Naj176M0 Amdocs "helped" install the phone lines in the White House in 1997.
- scoot 13y agoAmdocs' main product is billing software, so it aggregates raw Call Data Records (CDRs) from telco switches, and turns them into customer and peer billing data amongst other things.
- segacontroller 13y agoJust like Narus' main product was aggregating raw Internet Transmission Records from telco switches and turning them into customer and peer billing data for network usage?
- jpatokal 13y agoNo, Amdocs does billing software, which is precisely as unexciting as it sounds. CDRs contain a motherload of metadata (who called whom, how long etc), but have zero content about the actual content of the call, and they're generated by the other systems that feed into the billing system so their contents can't be changed.
- sinak 13y agoI don't understand why stories like this are being flagged down. This story has 55 points and is 3 hours ago and is on the second page, but a story with 45 points from 7 hours ago is on the homepage.
- sinak 13y agoLooks like the flag has now been removed, and it's up on the homepage. Thanks mysterious inner-workings of HN :).
- skylan_q 13y agoBecause it's America and anything that implicates Israel in any wrongdoing is to be silenced.
- xutopia 13y agoI think one of the reasons is that some people have a vote down button and they're using it. I don't have one for stories but I bet you anything that some special breed of users on this site do. And their votes matter more than us.
- alan_cx 13y agoSeen this several times. I wonder if there is some sort of manipulation based on its being a story from the guardian and having NSA in it some where.
- kirubakaran 13y agohttp://hnrankings.info/6367465/ http://hnrankings.info/6367465/ I don't see a steep drop, the tell-tale sign of a mod adjusting ranking weights/gravity.
- narrator 13y agoOh good! We finally have a candidate for someone that the NSA considers to not be "the enemy".
- hga 13y agohttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard
- ihsw 13y agoCan't forget Operation Opera[1], it seems especially relevant (prescient?) considering the speculation of air strikes on Syria. We may never see that kind of Israeli-Iranian cooperation ever again. It shows how much can change in 30 years. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Opera http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Opera
- madaxe 13y agoNo, no, they do. Everybody is the enemy. We have always been at war with everybody. See the defence budget. They're on the shitlist for cyberattack, along with Iran, China, and friends. In fact, see the article, which cites this too.
- toyg 13y agoOh, they don't. Read the article: they candidly point out that Israeli agencies have a bad record of not respecting agreements with the NSA and aggressively spying on US policymakers. In fact, they are worse than most other countries; but because of an overall foreign-policy sacred cow (survival of the State of Israel), they suppress their natural objections. Basically, the survival of Israel trumps any other US interest, even when Israel is seen as antagonistic. That's shocking.
- chebucto 13y agoI may have missed it, but I'm still waiting to hear whether the assumption about the 'five eyes' is true: whether the signals intelligence agencies of the US, UK, Canada, Australia & NZ spy on each others' citizens, and share that data with one another, in order to circumvent domestic spying restrictions. That is, whether the NSA spies on Canadians and gives that information to the Canadian government, while at the same time the CSE spies on Americans and gives that information to the American government.
- rett12 13y agoAnd do they share Canadian data with Israel without Canada knowing it?
- ferdo 13y agoProject Echelon seems to fit the bill: http://www.nsawatch.org/echelonfaq.html http://www.nsawatch.org/echelonfaq.html
- munin 13y agoIf you read the laws, you will discover that intelligence agencies are forbidden from asking anyone to do things that the agency itself may not do. The people who wrote these laws did their best to think of these loopholes. If you argue that they would break the law, then there is no reason for a sharing agreement as the agency could just break the law and do things themselves. So, this myth can probably be buried whatever you think about the integrity of the agencies...
- rbanffy 13y ago> are forbidden from asking anyone to do things that the agency itself may not do. I believe there are many ways to do it without asking.
- ferdo 13y agoBTW, thus far it seems that the Washington Post and USA Today are the only American mainstream sources touching this story: http://www.google.com/#q=israel+nsa&tbm=nws&tbs=sbd:1 http://www.google.com/#q=israel+nsa&tbm=nws&tbs=sbd:1
- Aloisius 13y agoYou know it takes more than an a few hours for the mainstream press to pick up a story. Unless they can license the original article, they either have to reference the original one and write a also-ran article or they have to call sources themselves. As of now, the LA times, Mother Jones and Salon have it. I imagine by tomorrow, it'll hit physical papers.
- ferdo 13y agoI've seen urgent stories hit the mainstream in minutes. The lack of urgency on the part of the mainstream wrt this story is the disturbing part.
- obvious1 13y agoBut it is not an "urgent" story per se. Journalists have contacts of their own. Newspapers have published prior information that they'll include in the story. Some places value comprehension and coverage.
- ferdo 13y ago> But it is not an "urgent" story per se. It's urgent to a lot of Americans, judging by the non-mainstream legs this story has.
- azernik 13y agoUrgent != important. Urgent means time-sensitive. Quickly developing events hit the mainstream outlets quite quickly, but with stories about newly-revealed but long-term stuff like this they can usually afford to wait a few days to get the story polished.
- yetanotherphd 13y agoIf this turns out to be true, then it's no big deal since we shouldn't be surprised that agencies share intelligence. If it turns out to be false, then it's anti-semitic to even think that Israel would engage in such a heinous act.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- forgotAgain 13y agoSo what happens in the situations where Israel intelligence uses US supplied information as a basis for killing an American citizen?
- ferdo 13y agoThe Israeli intelligence agent gets a promotion.
- ars 13y agoIs there some reason you expect this to be a likely scenario? Israel is pretty strongly focused on the Arab countries near it who are trying to destroy it. Not too many American citizens in those countries, and almost impossible for one to reach any kind of high position which would make them a target.
- AsymetricCom 13y agoWhat makes you think Mossad isn't operating on US Soil? There is more than enough public evidence showing otherwise.
- ars 13y agoOf course they are, every county has agents working in every other county. That's perfectly normal and expected. The parent was asking about executions though.
- SODaniel 13y agoI'm so tired of this crap I'm not even engaging in the debate anymore.
- thex86 13y agoThanks. Given your comment, I doubt you would have anything useful to contribute to this.
- crapcrapcrap 13y agoGrats, your comment not any better than his.
- ArtDev 13y ago>In 2009, however, the New York Times reported on "the agency's attempt to wiretap a member of Congress, without court approval, on an overseas trip". This is shocking. If I were a member of Congress I would be pissed! Where is the outrage!!
- officer_gotcha 13y agoYou'd be outraged up to the moment when you're shown your file. Then you'll get docile. That's the point of having a detailed file on everyone, you can pressure anyone if need be.
- einhverfr 13y agoWe now know why the DoD is blocking the Guardian on work computers. Get high ranking DoD intel folks reading a piece like this and it's going to be a shitstorm. I think this is actually one of the few revelations so far which is so previously unthinkable that it has the potential to isolate the NSA from the rest of the USG.
- tsotha 13y agoWhy single out Israel? Why would anyone think there aren't dozens of countries with the same agreement?
- kaonashi 13y agoThe most obvious reason is that they happen to have documented proof of this particular agreement.
- jlgreco 13y agoAssuming they have evidence of a similar agreements with other countries, it makes perfect strategic sense to lead off with Israel. If you lead off with, say, Belgium, you are going to encounter a large amount of "eh, not particularly concerning." However leading off with a country infamous for (correctly or otherwise, it does not matter) extraordinary rendition, assassinations, and human right abuses...
- ars 13y agoIsrael's enemies are for the most part the same as the US's. So "eh, not particularly concerning" is what you would say about Israel. With Belgium I'd say exactly the opposite - this is very concerning, why is the NSA sharing data with a county with few enemies in common. Or in other words you have your argument exactly backward.
- jlgreco 13y agoWhether or not you agree that involvement with Israel is concerning, surely you understand why many other people may think that. You'd have to be living under a rock to not understand that US/Israel relations are a hot-button issue. There isn't a productive conversation to be had in discussing the merits of such a concern. The issue is too toxic, so I am being intentionally neutral on this. I'm presenting the point of view, not endorsing or disputing it. Since that point of view exists and is widespread, it makes since to take advantage of it.
- 13y ago
- richardlblair 13y agoJust when you this shit is bad, it gets worse. I don't even know what to say anymore.
- ferdo 13y agoThe worst part is here: > Notably, a much stricter rule was set for US government communications found in the raw intelligence. The Israelis were required to "destroy upon recognition" any communication "that is either to or from an official of the US government". Such communications included those of "officials of the executive branch (including the White House, cabinet departments, and independent agencies), the US House of Representatives and Senate (member and staff) and the US federal court system (including, but not limited to, the supreme court)". The NSA is giving intel about officials in the US government to another country, on the honor system. Snowden and Manning are considered traitors for doing even less.
- torbj0rn 13y agoThe paragraph you cite is worded ambiguously, the Guardian is NOT reporting that the intel the NSA is sharing with Israel is about officials in the US government. Here is the first half of the following paragraph: >It is not clear whether any communications involving members of US Congress or the federal courts have been included in the raw data provided by the NSA, nor is it clear how or why the NSA would be in possession of such communications. Beware the sensationalism in this article. The only fact provided by the Guardian in this article is that NSA shares surveillance data with Israel. It is not known what kind of data is shared.
- lvs 13y agoThis is a bit of a naive statement in light of the other information we have about the scope of collection of raw "SIGINT," as well as the errors that have been admitted to the FISC in targeted collection. And you're also selectively quoting that paragraph, too. > In 2009, however, the New York Times reported on "the agency's attempt to wiretap a member of Congress, without court approval, on an overseas trip".
- ferdo 13y ago> The only fact provided by the Guardian in this article is that NSA shares surveillance data with Israel. Unfiltered data. The other fact shared is that Israelis are on the honor system with the data. As with any other spies, Israeli intel isn't known for its adherence to law or agreements. I think it's safe to assume that Israelis have high access to the same intel the NSA has on American officials.
- btilly 13y agoThe shoe I'm still waiting for is whether the FBI is willing to use the sworn affidavit of foreign intelligence people with access to American intelligence as grounds for warrants issued under the 4th amendment. In plain English, if another country tells us which Americans to go after, do we issue warrants and actually go after them? I'd be willing to bet money that we do, but nobody will want to admit to it.
- ars 13y agoIf they are basing it on American intelligence they would just tell America to look at that piece of intelligence and America would make it's own determination. So there is no shoe to drop. > In plain English, if another country tells us which Americans to go after, do we issue warrants and actually go after them? The only time this comes up is with that country's own intelligence. In which case America would ask to see it, and unless you expect the intelligence to be faked there is no particular excitement.
- dantheman 13y agoIt's about misuse of the intelligence, the method of acquisition means it can't be used in a trial. For the DEA this was whole parallel construction nonsense.
- btilly 13y agoLegally America can't look at that intelligence involving an American without a warrant issued under the 4th amendment. So you have to go to a court, and have a reason to target someone. The position of the NSA et al is that collecting data is not an invasion of privacy until you deliberately look at it. And they never intentionally target Americans. So there is no privacy implication for Americans in their data collection. But if they are giving that data wholesale to foreigners, who then examine it, and then hand us back names to target, then it is harder to claim that our privacy is not being compromised by the initial collection.
- devx 13y agoDEA has already done that with data from NSA, and then cover their tracks (IRS, too). What makes it so improbable that FBI hasn't done it, too?
- frank_boyd 13y agoAnother day, another WTF.
- codex 13y agoThis makes sense. If they had the technical capability to filter out inadvertent collection of data on US citizens, they would already have filtered it. Therefore, any data shared with Israel may contain data they were unable to filter out. QED.
- mpyne 13y agoWhile true, I'd certainly be interested in knowing what types of data are being shared, and why the filter isn't a whitelist instead of being a blacklist. Although I doubt Glenn would deign to leak any details that made any such data sharing appear more innocuous (i.e. the existence of a good reason for intelligence agency cooperation here, which may very well exist).
- cincinnatus 13y agoTreason.
- einhverfr 13y agoNot treason but certainly espionage.
- ianstallings 13y agoMy main concern is that they will use this data to target people who are pro-Palestine, or just plain anti-Israel, in America and subject them to scrutiny or worse. It makes you wonder what they give us in return. .
- icecreampain 13y agoA few more Hollywood movies to keep y'all quiet.
- rickhanlonii 13y agoThe most troubling truth of this for me is: >Destroy upon recognition any communication contained in raw SIGINT provided by NSA that is either to or from an official of the U.S. Government. Government officials" include officials of the Executive Branch (including the White House, Cabinet Departments. and independent agencies); the House of Representatives and Senate (members and staff); and the U.S. Federal Court system (including, but not limited to. the Supreme Court). "Officials" include civilian and military members and employees performing the official business of these branches of govemment, and is independent of seniority or position. >Process only for purposes unrelated to intelligence against the U.S any communications contained in raw SIGINT provided by NSA that include references to activities. policies, and views of U.S. officials. It's not that Israel is supposed to destroy any data they get that is either to or from a U.S. Government official that troubles me. It's both that they collect that data and that they pass it out blindly to other nations. That is absolutely irresponsible.
- kamjam 13y agoThe most troubling truth of this for me is... well, all of it!
- lifeisstillgood 13y agoCan I try to get this straight - Five Eyes countries all co-operate in grabbing as much traffic and metadata globally as they possibly can. this raw data is also shared with at least one favoured nation. Analysed, filtered data can then be accessed in BigData style to gather a digital picture of almost anyone globally, covering financial transactions, phone, email and medical. out of this comes (unsurprisingly) actionable information that covers not terrorism but more common international and domestic crime (drug smuggling, other organised crime) however due to legal and political issues the information cannot be given directly to law enforcement so it is provided via cut outs - departments in FBI / DEA who get tip offs from "anonymous sources" and pass it on. A similar legal niceitie is performed by say having Canada process raw data about US officials and the passing on useful data to the NSA (thus no country ever actually spies on its own people) on top of this Israeli intelligence get raw data and probably join in the game of deniable whispers. I think that's about it so two things 1. is there a wiki where we can all update / view what is know and provable? if not who wants to help? 2. is there any evidence they have gotten into VISA ? that might tip the balance against this program publically 3. WTF !?
- samstave 13y agoHere is a list of all NSA revelations: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0Al2LIEgoNIx2dFNCb3dTS1c5Y2ZkQWNzVUc5UkNFeEE&output=html https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0Al2LIEgoNIx2dFN... It should also be noted that NSA + Israel were purportedly confirmed to have colluded on the creation of Stuxnet and Duqu. Here is what i want to know: Israel has a booming tech sector. How much of the NSA data they get is shared with their tech sector to use industrial espionage to boost the performance, intel, capabilities and innovation of their tech sector?
- nl 13y agois there any evidence they have gotten into VISA? By VISA do you mean the credit card company "Visa"? If so, then yes of course they are there. Credit card purchasing records have been shared with law enforcement for years, and that isn't some secret NSA program. You may be unaware, but Visa shares purchasing information with companies like Acxiom already[1] and has done for years. Of course, you may be talking about some other "VISA". [1] http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/17/technology/acxiom-the-quiet-giant-of-consumer-database-marketing.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/17/technology/acxiom-the-quie...
- crapcrapcrap 13y agoKeep sucking israeli's ass america. i doubt there's any juice left in there.
- chj 13y agoIs Israel also sharing its raw intelligence with US? If so, it's a DEAL between two countries. What's the big deal?
- kbart 13y agoIf two criminals share your stolen property, does it make it right?
- ddevelop 13y agoHow come this story is being buried below older ones with less comments and less points? There seems to be a concerted effort to suppress this.
- DanBC 13y agoSome people think the story belongs here and they upvote it. Other people think the story doesn't belong here and they flag it. The site has some mechanisms for ageing stories.