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It's not for everyone, that is for certain! Where are you from, vaksel? Since you seem to have solid opinions on the type of vehicle you would like to drive (

It's not for everyone, that is for certain! Where are you from, vaksel? Since you seem to have solid opinions on the type of vehicle you would like to drive (you mentioned type of vehicle, price, and powertrain) we would love for you to join the Local-Motors.com community and guide the vehicle choice process. This is what it's all about! The Rally Fighter is certainly not "all purpose" and does not satisfy my craving for a race car either. For off-roaders who either want to get into desert racing, or already do it, the vehicle makes sense - in some ways, maybe more sense than anything else on the market. And the idea of building it alongside an expert makes sense as well; if you are going to be out in the middle of nowhere and driving hard, it's best if you know how to take care of your vehicle yourself. Even if it just means changing a tire or building confidence in understanding the vehicle limitations, this is a cool experience for those who desire it. Again, not for everyone. And that's the point. The Local Motors experience is for the crazed car enthusiast - seems everyone knows one or two. Electric makes great sense for some places and I'm certain that Lm will build an EV sooner than later; but for desert racing I think clean diesel is best. The choice of powertrain is based on geographic availability of alternative fuel sources, as well as use of the vehicle. You can't race Baja w/ an EV. Where would you recharge on your 2k mile trek through Ensanada? As of yet, it's not feasible. Maybe in the future. I think it's arguable as to whether or not Local Motors should have entered the market w/ a Tesla-like sports car. But when you think of Tesla, Ron Motors, Fisker and others, do you think the playing field is a bit full? Surely there is room for others to compete at that level, but we are not at that level. We are not going to make very many Rally Fighters, and they will not be available all over the country. This is niche. We certainly have some proving to do but we are ready for the challenge! The format is viable, and so far the community is supportive of the Rally Fighter (and there is talk of an electric Boston Bullet). Hope to hear more of your thoughts. Ariel aferreira@local-motors.com

vaksel 17y ago
The thing is, offroaders like power like the rest of the gearheads, so engine choice is very important. Picking the BMW Diesel will pretty much mean that any mods the people do will cost them an arm and a leg. + I'm sure it's costing you a ton of money to use that particular engine. Offroaders aren't the hippie type to care about environment or mileage, hell most of them are running catless, so the whole clean diesel seems to be targeting the wrong demographic. And yes you should know how to take care of your vehicle, but thats the point, using the BMW engine pretty much means the thing will be an electronic nightmare, if these things are to be taken offroad, a person should be able to take it apart and put it together on a side of a road with nothing more than a socket wrench. I wasn't really arguing for electric cars, I just meant that Tesla as a new company targeted the sports car market to test the idea, because the sports car market is the only market where people are willing to pay a premium, even for an untested product. Offroaders do too, but the segment is infinitely smaller. It seems to me that the car is not built for the demographic you are targeting. a) Design: lower the chassis, and the car is pretty much the ideal design of what a hybrid coupe would look like. An offroader should look mean. It shouldn't look out of place covered in mud. b) Engine: Expensive to modify, expensive to maintain, requires a space shuttle manual to work on. c) Price point I know it says 50K, but we all know that its going to be higher once production begins. I just don't see that there'd be such a high demand for a 50K+ dedicated offroader. Not unless the thing completely trounces its competition. Take a look at Bowler Wildcat/Nemesis cars, thats pretty much what you are going to be competing with in your price range. And those things have actual racing pedigree with tons of wins under their belt. Anyways back to the sports car market. Yes its a saturated market, but its so much bigger than the offroad market. There is plenty of space as long as you build something people will want. And you have the whole build by people like you thing going for you, which would have helped. To me, if I were in your shoes I'd scrap the whole offroader idea and build a sports car. Lower the thing. Throw an engine in the rear. Paint the plastic. Its a much easier segment to compete in, compared to the offroader market.
- AriFerreira 17y ago
  Prepare for a long response (my apologies for monopolizing this space) All good points. Let me address each point individually: Engine: Agree that offroaders like power; for the 3,000 – 3,200 lb offroader we are building, the BMW 335d offers substantial power. If customers want more power, and some will, there are plenty of tuner options available. The BMW engine is more expensive than other options, and it may be somewhat more challenging to take apart if you’re not use to it. But since all LM customers will build their own vehicle alongside an expert, and will take part in builder training – each customer will know the engine and the vehicle. Disagree that offroaders don’t care about clean diesel. If the proposal was to force enthusiasts to choose between performance and a “green” ride, I would agree with you; they will choose performance. But this is not an ultimatum. Enthusiasts want both – performance and sustainability. I say sustainability and not “green” purposely. Yes, we are reducing particulate emissions (this is what is usually meant by “green"); by lightweighting the vehicles and using the most efficient powertrain for the purpose of each segment, we are indeed “green”. But by also using an engine that is engineered for reliability (both BMW & diesel have superior reliability and sustainability) the need to replace parts is decreased and therefore more sustainable. There are other factors to consider, but these are the main points. In places like Arizona we have found that off-roaders are one of the primary groups to take care of the land. They want to preserve the area they so enjoy. This frame of mind opens them up to more sustainable options, like clean diesel – as long as they don’t have to give up performance, they are happy. And if more efficient sustainable options are not a demand of the market, but a mere tertiary benefit – Local Motors is happy because we are lending a hand in reducing our nations dependence on foreign oil and eventually, fossil fuels in general. Reduction of our reliance on foreign oil and fossil fuels is one of our pillars, which Local Motors is founded on. If we can make significant strides to promote a “no compromise” mentality, one that celebrates not only power but also efficiency in such a performance-driven market, then I would say we are proving ourselves just as well as Tesla or any of the others. Design: The Rally Fighter is a dual ride-height design. If you want it lower, it can be lowered. For off-roading you will want it higher so you can utilize all 18” of wheel travel. The Rally Fighter can jump – and that’s a big part of the fun. Remember that the stability of the vehicle has more to do with the weight displacement than the height of the vehicle. The engine is set low, lowering the point of gravity to the extent possible while maintaining ground clearance. The wide stance of the Rally Fighter also promotes stability. You are right that an off-roader should look mean – and the posted renderings are shiny and unmean looking (sorry!) We will muddy it up, and it will look more at home at that point. The stance and size make it aggressive in my eyes, but this is subjective. Price Point: $50k is not cheap, this we know. We will build less expensive vehicles for less expensive segments. We will also build Baja-ready Rally Fighters which will cost more than $50k. The Bowler Nemesis is a comparable vehicle in many senses, though we still see a few advantages with the Rally Fighter: The nemesis weighs about 1,000lbs more than the RF, and it costs over $130,000. Also the Nemesis runs on E85 – and there are exactly zero E85 refueling stations in Arizona. Building cars is not a new science and neither is building relatively efficient cars; we see great gains in efficiency simply by lightweighting. As a know-how kind of car guy, if you set your mind to it you could clearly build cars. Bringing desirable cars to market in a cost effective manner through a sustainable business model IS a new science – this is what Local Motors brings to the table. Still curious to know where you are located. Would love to open the conversation to the type of sports car you desire.

vaksel 17y ago

The thing is, offroaders like power like the rest of the gearheads, so engine choice is very important. Picking the BMW Diesel will pretty much mean that any mods the people do will cost them an arm and a leg. + I'm sure it's costing you a ton of money to use that particular engine. Offroaders aren't the hippie type to care about environment or mileage, hell most of them are running catless, so the whole clean diesel seems to be targeting the wrong demographic. And yes you should know how to take care of your vehicle, but thats the point, using the BMW engine pretty much means the thing will be an electronic nightmare, if these things are to be taken offroad, a person should be able to take it apart and put it together on a side of a road with nothing more than a socket wrench. I wasn't really arguing for electric cars, I just meant that Tesla as a new company targeted the sports car market to test the idea, because the sports car market is the only market where people are willing to pay a premium, even for an untested product. Offroaders do too, but the segment is infinitely smaller. It seems to me that the car is not built for the demographic you are targeting. a) Design: lower the chassis, and the car is pretty much the ideal design of what a hybrid coupe would look like. An offroader should look mean. It shouldn't look out of place covered in mud. b) Engine: Expensive to modify, expensive to maintain, requires a space shuttle manual to work on. c) Price point I know it says 50K, but we all know that its going to be higher once production begins. I just don't see that there'd be such a high demand for a 50K+ dedicated offroader. Not unless the thing completely trounces its competition. Take a look at Bowler Wildcat/Nemesis cars, thats pretty much what you are going to be competing with in your price range. And those things have actual racing pedigree with tons of wins under their belt. Anyways back to the sports car market. Yes its a saturated market, but its so much bigger than the offroad market. There is plenty of space as long as you build something people will want. And you have the whole build by people like you thing going for you, which would have helped. To me, if I were in your shoes I'd scrap the whole offroader idea and build a sports car. Lower the thing. Throw an engine in the rear. Paint the plastic. Its a much easier segment to compete in, compared to the offroader market.

AriFerreira 17y ago
Prepare for a long response (my apologies for monopolizing this space) All good points. Let me address each point individually: Engine: Agree that offroaders like power; for the 3,000 – 3,200 lb offroader we are building, the BMW 335d offers substantial power. If customers want more power, and some will, there are plenty of tuner options available. The BMW engine is more expensive than other options, and it may be somewhat more challenging to take apart if you’re not use to it. But since all LM customers will build their own vehicle alongside an expert, and will take part in builder training – each customer will know the engine and the vehicle. Disagree that offroaders don’t care about clean diesel. If the proposal was to force enthusiasts to choose between performance and a “green” ride, I would agree with you; they will choose performance. But this is not an ultimatum. Enthusiasts want both – performance and sustainability. I say sustainability and not “green” purposely. Yes, we are reducing particulate emissions (this is what is usually meant by “green"); by lightweighting the vehicles and using the most efficient powertrain for the purpose of each segment, we are indeed “green”. But by also using an engine that is engineered for reliability (both BMW & diesel have superior reliability and sustainability) the need to replace parts is decreased and therefore more sustainable. There are other factors to consider, but these are the main points. In places like Arizona we have found that off-roaders are one of the primary groups to take care of the land. They want to preserve the area they so enjoy. This frame of mind opens them up to more sustainable options, like clean diesel – as long as they don’t have to give up performance, they are happy. And if more efficient sustainable options are not a demand of the market, but a mere tertiary benefit – Local Motors is happy because we are lending a hand in reducing our nations dependence on foreign oil and eventually, fossil fuels in general. Reduction of our reliance on foreign oil and fossil fuels is one of our pillars, which Local Motors is founded on. If we can make significant strides to promote a “no compromise” mentality, one that celebrates not only power but also efficiency in such a performance-driven market, then I would say we are proving ourselves just as well as Tesla or any of the others. Design: The Rally Fighter is a dual ride-height design. If you want it lower, it can be lowered. For off-roading you will want it higher so you can utilize all 18” of wheel travel. The Rally Fighter can jump – and that’s a big part of the fun. Remember that the stability of the vehicle has more to do with the weight displacement than the height of the vehicle. The engine is set low, lowering the point of gravity to the extent possible while maintaining ground clearance. The wide stance of the Rally Fighter also promotes stability. You are right that an off-roader should look mean – and the posted renderings are shiny and unmean looking (sorry!) We will muddy it up, and it will look more at home at that point. The stance and size make it aggressive in my eyes, but this is subjective. Price Point: $50k is not cheap, this we know. We will build less expensive vehicles for less expensive segments. We will also build Baja-ready Rally Fighters which will cost more than $50k. The Bowler Nemesis is a comparable vehicle in many senses, though we still see a few advantages with the Rally Fighter: The nemesis weighs about 1,000lbs more than the RF, and it costs over $130,000. Also the Nemesis runs on E85 – and there are exactly zero E85 refueling stations in Arizona. Building cars is not a new science and neither is building relatively efficient cars; we see great gains in efficiency simply by lightweighting. As a know-how kind of car guy, if you set your mind to it you could clearly build cars. Bringing desirable cars to market in a cost effective manner through a sustainable business model IS a new science – this is what Local Motors brings to the table. Still curious to know where you are located. Would love to open the conversation to the type of sports car you desire.