6 ms·

Local Motors: collaborative car design, construction, and purchase

13 points by ivankirigin 17y ago

ivankirigin 17y ago
Lots of talk about GM recently, so I thought I'd post something about a really cool car company. I'm told that ~"At a design stage when GM has spent $10M, we've spent $10K"
- AriFerreira 17y ago
  Thanks for spreading the word, Ivan. The $10k is for the initial design and some design development based on community desires; this number does not include engineering and development. But all in all, the outcome is vastly lower cost to market.
vaksel 17y ago
wow 50K for such an ugly kit car? And thats only an estimate, we all know how car companies stick to estimates, thing will probably cost 75K when everything is said and done. And they are using a Diesel to power it? Why? Hardly something that I would call a car of my dreams. Also notice how high the center of gravity is. Thing will probably tip over at the first corner on the highway. There is a reason Tesla's first vehicle was a sports car, because thats the one car segment where people aren't weary of spending a ton of money. And a company can prove itself in a competitive market. If I were going to spend a ton of money on a kit car, I'd spend $28K on an Ultima GTR/Can-Am. Its a lot cheaper, and you get a lot more bang for your buck. And even if you don't know how to work on cars, it'll cost you like 10K to get it put together. So it'll still be cheaper than their estimated price
- AriFerreira 17y ago
  It's not for everyone, that is for certain! Where are you from, vaksel? Since you seem to have solid opinions on the type of vehicle you would like to drive (you mentioned type of vehicle, price, and powertrain) we would love for you to join the Local-Motors.com community and guide the vehicle choice process. This is what it's all about! The Rally Fighter is certainly not "all purpose" and does not satisfy my craving for a race car either. For off-roaders who either want to get into desert racing, or already do it, the vehicle makes sense - in some ways, maybe more sense than anything else on the market. And the idea of building it alongside an expert makes sense as well; if you are going to be out in the middle of nowhere and driving hard, it's best if you know how to take care of your vehicle yourself. Even if it just means changing a tire or building confidence in understanding the vehicle limitations, this is a cool experience for those who desire it. Again, not for everyone. And that's the point. The Local Motors experience is for the crazed car enthusiast - seems everyone knows one or two. Electric makes great sense for some places and I'm certain that Lm will build an EV sooner than later; but for desert racing I think clean diesel is best. The choice of powertrain is based on geographic availability of alternative fuel sources, as well as use of the vehicle. You can't race Baja w/ an EV. Where would you recharge on your 2k mile trek through Ensanada? As of yet, it's not feasible. Maybe in the future. I think it's arguable as to whether or not Local Motors should have entered the market w/ a Tesla-like sports car. But when you think of Tesla, Ron Motors, Fisker and others, do you think the playing field is a bit full? Surely there is room for others to compete at that level, but we are not at that level. We are not going to make very many Rally Fighters, and they will not be available all over the country. This is niche. We certainly have some proving to do but we are ready for the challenge! The format is viable, and so far the community is supportive of the Rally Fighter (and there is talk of an electric Boston Bullet). Hope to hear more of your thoughts. Ariel aferreira@local-motors.com
  - vaksel 17y ago
    The thing is, offroaders like power like the rest of the gearheads, so engine choice is very important. Picking the BMW Diesel will pretty much mean that any mods the people do will cost them an arm and a leg. + I'm sure it's costing you a ton of money to use that particular engine. Offroaders aren't the hippie type to care about environment or mileage, hell most of them are running catless, so the whole clean diesel seems to be targeting the wrong demographic. And yes you should know how to take care of your vehicle, but thats the point, using the BMW engine pretty much means the thing will be an electronic nightmare, if these things are to be taken offroad, a person should be able to take it apart and put it together on a side of a road with nothing more than a socket wrench. I wasn't really arguing for electric cars, I just meant that Tesla as a new company targeted the sports car market to test the idea, because the sports car market is the only market where people are willing to pay a premium, even for an untested product. Offroaders do too, but the segment is infinitely smaller. It seems to me that the car is not built for the demographic you are targeting. a) Design: lower the chassis, and the car is pretty much the ideal design of what a hybrid coupe would look like. An offroader should look mean. It shouldn't look out of place covered in mud. b) Engine: Expensive to modify, expensive to maintain, requires a space shuttle manual to work on. c) Price point I know it says 50K, but we all know that its going to be higher once production begins. I just don't see that there'd be such a high demand for a 50K+ dedicated offroader. Not unless the thing completely trounces its competition. Take a look at Bowler Wildcat/Nemesis cars, thats pretty much what you are going to be competing with in your price range. And those things have actual racing pedigree with tons of wins under their belt. Anyways back to the sports car market. Yes its a saturated market, but its so much bigger than the offroad market. There is plenty of space as long as you build something people will want. And you have the whole build by people like you thing going for you, which would have helped. To me, if I were in your shoes I'd scrap the whole offroader idea and build a sports car. Lower the thing. Throw an engine in the rear. Paint the plastic. Its a much easier segment to compete in, compared to the offroader market.
    - AriFerreira 17y ago
      Prepare for a long response (my apologies for monopolizing this space) All good points. Let me address each point individually: Engine: Agree that offroaders like power; for the 3,000 – 3,200 lb offroader we are building, the BMW 335d offers substantial power. If customers want more power, and some will, there are plenty of tuner options available. The BMW engine is more expensive than other options, and it may be somewhat more challenging to take apart if you’re not use to it. But since all LM customers will build their own vehicle alongside an expert, and will take part in builder training – each customer will know the engine and the vehicle. Disagree that offroaders don’t care about clean diesel. If the proposal was to force enthusiasts to choose between performance and a “green” ride, I would agree with you; they will choose performance. But this is not an ultimatum. Enthusiasts want both – performance and sustainability. I say sustainability and not “green” purposely. Yes, we are reducing particulate emissions (this is what is usually meant by “green"); by lightweighting the vehicles and using the most efficient powertrain for the purpose of each segment, we are indeed “green”. But by also using an engine that is engineered for reliability (both BMW & diesel have superior reliability and sustainability) the need to replace parts is decreased and therefore more sustainable. There are other factors to consider, but these are the main points. In places like Arizona we have found that off-roaders are one of the primary groups to take care of the land. They want to preserve the area they so enjoy. This frame of mind opens them up to more sustainable options, like clean diesel – as long as they don’t have to give up performance, they are happy. And if more efficient sustainable options are not a demand of the market, but a mere tertiary benefit – Local Motors is happy because we are lending a hand in reducing our nations dependence on foreign oil and eventually, fossil fuels in general. Reduction of our reliance on foreign oil and fossil fuels is one of our pillars, which Local Motors is founded on. If we can make significant strides to promote a “no compromise” mentality, one that celebrates not only power but also efficiency in such a performance-driven market, then I would say we are proving ourselves just as well as Tesla or any of the others. Design: The Rally Fighter is a dual ride-height design. If you want it lower, it can be lowered. For off-roading you will want it higher so you can utilize all 18” of wheel travel. The Rally Fighter can jump – and that’s a big part of the fun. Remember that the stability of the vehicle has more to do with the weight displacement than the height of the vehicle. The engine is set low, lowering the point of gravity to the extent possible while maintaining ground clearance. The wide stance of the Rally Fighter also promotes stability. You are right that an off-roader should look mean – and the posted renderings are shiny and unmean looking (sorry!) We will muddy it up, and it will look more at home at that point. The stance and size make it aggressive in my eyes, but this is subjective. Price Point: $50k is not cheap, this we know. We will build less expensive vehicles for less expensive segments. We will also build Baja-ready Rally Fighters which will cost more than $50k. The Bowler Nemesis is a comparable vehicle in many senses, though we still see a few advantages with the Rally Fighter: The nemesis weighs about 1,000lbs more than the RF, and it costs over $130,000. Also the Nemesis runs on E85 – and there are exactly zero E85 refueling stations in Arizona. Building cars is not a new science and neither is building relatively efficient cars; we see great gains in efficiency simply by lightweighting. As a know-how kind of car guy, if you set your mind to it you could clearly build cars. Bringing desirable cars to market in a cost effective manner through a sustainable business model IS a new science – this is what Local Motors brings to the table. Still curious to know where you are located. Would love to open the conversation to the type of sports car you desire.
dan_the_welder 17y ago
Doomed. Edit: Because it's ugly. I went and looked at more designs, most belong to the "Art Instruction Schools" aesthetic. Because it's vaporware. Have they made 'one' yet? How do they intend to make the body? Fiberglass? That's the only thing they could possibly afford. If and only if they have access to a 5 axis CNC router and a CAM package to carve the plugs. You won't be able to get it financed in the foreseeable future. You will have to jump through unimaginable license hoops to register it yourself as a kit car.
- AriFerreira 17y ago
  Can't believe there are so many car guys here! This is awesome. The first production-ready prototype will be on the ground in late summer, and will be at SEMA in November. Production (meaning individual builds) will begin in the Fall of 2010. Including the community & local Southwest enthusiasts in the design & build process was necessary for LM to know we were bringing a desirable vehicle to market. The "opensource" aspect gained a lot of discussion early on. Now that we have incorporated the community desires in the design & engineering, we have a lot of proving to do. This is an exciting year. The body will be composite, panels on tubular welded steel spaceframe. We will use carbonfiber and thermaplastics for the panels. Financing anything is not as easy as it use to be. Our expectations are adjusted accordingly - we only aim to build about 3,000 in the lifetime of the vehicle, and probably only a few hundred in the first few years. Licensing as a kit car or custom vehicle isn't as hard as you might think - primarily because the engine and other parts are OEM. Thanks for the humbling, blunt review! Love it or hate it, at least the Rally Fighter isn't like everything else on the road. The pool of sameness can become monotonous.
vaksel 17y ago
I spent some time in photoshop turning it into a sports car, and here is the result: http://i41.tinypic.com/30cc6cz.jpg http://i41.tinypic.com/30cc6cz.jpg For $50K people would buy it, wouldn't matter if it was powered by hampsters or a Supercharged V8. Why? Because it would remind them of a baby Aston Martin. For engine choice I would probably use the engine out of the Chevrolet Camaro, GM is going bankrupt, so you can probably buy the engines on the cheap. And those engines are known for having a ton of potential. If GM doesn't work out, the 4.6L Ford would have to do. Of course can always follow in Lotus footsteps, keep the thing light, and use a supercharged/turbocharged 4 cylinder Honda/Toyota engine Thats the thing with most cars, looks account for 90% of public interest. As long as you make a truly beautiful car, people will buy it, even if its a complete piece of crap.
- AriFerreira 17y ago
  I didn't see this before - your design has legs. I'm not big on the spoiler but otherwise looks to be a beautiful "baby aston" just as you said. But I do see Fisker, and I do see Aston - what about a new brand?
  - vaksel 17y ago
    All cars look more or less the same in the sports car segment. Yes it sorta looks like an Aston, but there is enough difference for it to be its own car. As far as its own brand, most of the "branding" is done on the front end of the car. Shouldn't be that hard to design a brand new grille that is your own.
    - AriFerreira 17y ago
      I think this could have enough uniqueness to stand on its own. You're right that the general shape of coupes or sedans is the same. But the long hood of the Fisker (and this RF coupe) is significant, and could be a brand indicator. The entire design language should be a brand indicator. I think GM had a similar thought: that a brand is a marque and a grille. They built the same cars w/ subtle changes and cannibalized Chevy and Pontiac. Not saying that is what you are doing here, but I am saying that a brand extends far beyond a grille.
lowkey 17y ago
It's bold, audacious, visionary and will most likely fail. I love it! Now if only they could find a way to recruit great engineers to do the heavy lifting to actually engineer and manufacture these vehicles. Kind of reminds me of Cambrian House - only harder because it is hardware. It might makes sense if they sold virtual cars, but as for actually producing vehicles in any volume I think it is far fetched.
- AriFerreira 17y ago
  We are building a community of engineers to work alongside the community of designers at local-motors.com. We already had one "Parts-Bin" competition to design the Rally Fighter side vent; the community chose the winner - a cohesive, functional and low-cost side-vent. As the community grows we will undertake more challenges in the engineering arena. After the LM community & team fully develop each vehicle, some building occurs in a centralized location (like chassis welding, etc.) Then each customer joins LM experts in the Local Micro-Factory (we will build micro-factories in regions across the US, hence the "Local" :)) for the build experience & training. Vehicles are built Just-In-Time by each individual customer. This project takes two short weekends. If you have an LM vehicle, you have a more powerful understanding of your vehicle - because you built it. Seems crazy to crowdsource such a large physical product. But mostly we are crowdsourcing desire and ideas so that we can build only desirable cars. Local Motors has to make many decisions independently in order to make it to market in an efficient, cost-effective manner.
jrogers 17y ago
@vaksel Correction, I was distinguishing the 335 from the X6, we are using the 335d. As for why not the 335i, The carbon footprint is worse than the 335d given that it is 30% less fuel efficient. We are focused on changing the impact of vehicles and this is a good way to start. If we were going to go for a gas system, we are prepared to offer the LS series engines. More hp by 430 vs 300. I hear you on the "Performance, Reliability, Price...choose 2" That has been true in the past, but we do not think that applies when you compare our product+experience to others product. LM is "Design, Performance, Buildability, Price...choose 3 (green is a given)". Our customers want great looking and great performance, and don't want to be keyed in the parking lot for driving something whose mpg is measured in gpm vice mpg. If someone wants to race and get more than the 425lb-ft from the 335d, then they have the room to swap to an LS7 and to crank it up. As for road legal, you are thinking of passenger car specs, this vehicle would classify as a mixed use vehicle in which case many of the FMVSS specs to which you are referring would not be applicable. Hope that helps. As for buggies and dirtbikes occupying the market...I guess I am just not going to be able to convince you and should not try. But here goes. ATVs and Bikes are a TOTALLY different experience which require a much more fit rider and mindset. Buggies are not anywhere near as capable as "trucks" made for this landscape (to be precise, we are talking about 25mph max vs 70mph avg.) Then there is the subject of Pre-running. Much of it today is done either in sand-rail/types or in sup'd up F-150/types. Most races (i.e. Reno to Vegas) are pre-run in a column of cars where you are simply eating dust the entire day. So sandrails are miserable, go ask John Marking of Fox Racing. As for sup'd up F-150 types after spending in excess of 150K you will have 10 inches of wheel travel and a 7000lb vehicle that needs a 700+ hp engine to move it, and it becomes a veritable space race of mass and power. The whole point is that no company has ever seen the profit in making cars for this size market, but LM makes cars with a much lower break-even volume allowing us to access a much smaller niche. Even if you are right and the market is not as large as we would want, we will have invested less than $2MM in the build program, so we can afford to scrap it and move on to the next ...compare this to Fisker or Tesla (other startup car co.'s) that have each raised in excess of $200MM and only have 1 model competing in very VERY busy marget segments. As for MA, you are at Y-Combinator and should understand this. Just because we are starting in MA doesn't mean that we are finishing here. We are in a small startup Ops Center. We have 2 letters of intent on properties in Phoenix and are already working on our MA model. When we started we had no idea that the community would like the performance off-road desert racing segment, so we couldn't predict where would be best to go...so we dove in and got started. Hindsight is 20-20, but I prefer to get going. After all, this is unlike any start-up in any typical venture type market, so some of the nimble ideas do not apply as well. We are building a car company in an intensely difficult time and are taking risks where we feel appropriate and necessary and taking them large. Where we do not need to take risk, we are intensely conservative. I also hope that this helps. Again, I am so stoked that you care enough to dig and to answer. I really think that our community could use your insight...hope you will join www.local-motors.com
jrogers 17y ago
@vaksel Correction, I was distinguishing the 335 from the X6, we are using the 335d. As for why not the 335i, The carbon footprint is worse than the 335d given that it is 30% less fuel efficient. We are focused on changing the impact of vehicles and this is a good way to start. If we were going to go for a gas system, we are prepared to offer the LS series engines. More hp by 430 vs 300. I hear you on the "Performance, Reliability, Price...choose 2" That has been true in the past, but we do not think that applies when you compare our product+experience to others product. LM is "Design, Performance, Buildability, Price...choose 3 (green is a given)". Our customers want great looking and great performance, and don't want to be keyed in the parking lot for driving something whose mpg is measured in gpm vice mpg. If someone wants to race and get more than the 425lb-ft from the 335d, then they have the room to swap to an LS7 and to crank it up. As for road legal, you are thinking of passenger car specs, this vehicle would classify as a mixed use vehicle in which case many of the FMVSS specs to which you are referring would not be applicable. Hope that helps. As for buggies and dirtbikes occupying the market...I guess I am just not going to be able to convince you and should not try. But here goes. ATVs and Bikes are a TOTALLY different experience which require a much more fit rider and mindset. Buggies are not anywhere near as capable as "trucks" made for this landscape (to be precise, we are talking about 25mph max vs 70mph avg.) Then there is the subject of Pre-running. Much of it today is done either in sand-rail/types or in sup'd up F-150/types. Most races (i.e. Reno to Vegas) are pre-run in a column of cars where you are simply eating dust the entire day. So sandrails are miserable, go ask John Marking of Fox Racing. As for sup'd up F-150 types after spending in excess of 150K you will have 10 inches of wheel travel and a 7000lb vehicle that needs a 700+ hp engine to move it, and it becomes a veritable space race of mass and power. The whole point is that no company has ever seen the profit in making cars for this size market, but LM makes cars with a much lower break-even volume allowing us to access a much smaller niche. Even if you are right and the market is not as large as we would want, we will have invested less than $2MM in the build program, so we can afford to scrap it and move on to the next ...compare this to Fisker or Tesla (other startup car co.'s) that have each raised in excess of $200MM and only have 1 model competing in very VERY busy marget segments. As for MA, you are at Y-Combinator and should understand this. Just because we are starting in MA doesn't mean that we are finishing here. We are in a small startup Ops Center. We have 2 letters of intent on properties in Phoenix and are already working on our MA model. When we started we had no idea that the community would like the performance off-road desert racing segment, so we couldn't predict where would be best to go...so we dove in and got started. Hindsight is 20-20, but I prefer to get going. After all, this is unlike any start-up in any typical venture type market, so some of the nimble ideas do not apply as well. We are building a car company in an intensely difficult time and are taking risks where we feel appropriate and necessary and taking them large. Where we do not need to take risk, we are intensely conservative. I also hope that this helps. Again, I am so stoked that you care enough to dig and to answer. I really think that our community could use your insight...hope you will join www.local-motors.com
jrogers 17y ago
Correction, I was distinguishing the 335 from the X6, we are using the 335d. As for why not the 335i, The carbon footprint is worse than the 335d given that it is 30% less fuel efficient. We are focused on changing the impact of vehicles and this is a good way to start. If we were going to go for a gas system, we are prepared to offer the LS series engines. More hp by 430 vs 300. I hear you on the "Performance, Reliability, Price...choose 2" That has been true in the past, but we do not think that applies when you compare our product+experience to others product. LM is "Design, Performance, Buildability, Price...choose 3 (green is a given)". Our customers want great looking and great performance, and don't want to be keyed in the parking lot for driving something whose mpg is measured in gpm vice mpg. If someone wants to race and get more than the 425lb-ft from the 335d, then they have the room to swap to an LS7 and to crank it up. As for road legal, you are thinking of passenger car specs, this vehicle would classify as a mixed use vehicle in which case many of the FMVSS specs to which you are referring would not be applicable. Hope that helps. As for buggies and dirtbikes occupying the market...I guess I am just not going to be able to convince you and should not try. But here goes. ATVs and Bikes are a TOTALLY different experience which require a much more fit rider and mindset. Buggies are not anywhere near as capable as "trucks" made for this landscape (to be precise, we are talking about 25mph max vs 70mph avg.) Then there is the subject of Pre-running. Much of it today is done either in sand-rail/types or in sup'd up F-150/types. Most races (i.e. Reno to Vegas) are pre-run in a column of cars where you are simply eating dust the entire day. So sandrails are miserable, go ask John Marking of Fox Racing. As for sup'd up F-150 types after spending in excess of 150K you will have 10 inches of wheel travel and a 7000lb vehicle that needs a 700+ hp engine to move it, and it becomes a veritable space race of mass and power. The whole point is that no company has ever seen the profit in making cars for this size market, but LM makes cars with a much lower break-even volume allowing us to access a much smaller niche. Even if you are right and the market is not as large as we would want, we will have invested less than $2MM in the build program, so we can afford to scrap it and move on to the next ...compare this to Fisker or Tesla (other startup car co.'s) that have each raised in excess of $200MM and only have 1 model competing in very VERY busy marget segments. As for MA, you are at Y-Combinator and should understand this. Just because we are starting in MA doesn't mean that we are finishing here. We are in a small startup Ops Center. We have 2 letters of intent on properties in Phoenix and are already working on our MA model. When we started we had no idea that the community would like the performance off-road desert racing segment, so we couldn't predict where would be best to go...so we dove in and got started. Hindsight is 20-20, but I prefer to get going. After all, this is unlike any start-up in any typical venture type market, so some of the nimble ideas do not apply as well. We are building a car company in an intensely difficult time and are taking risks where we feel appropriate and necessary and taking them large. Where we do not need to take risk, we are intensely conservative. I also hope that this helps. Again, I am so stoked that you care enough to dig and to answer. I really think that our community could use your insight...hope you will join www.local-motors.com

13 points by ivankirigin 17y ago

Lots of talk about GM recently, so I thought I'd post something about a really cool car company. I'm told that ~"At a design stage when GM has spent $10M, we've spent $10K"

AriFerreira 17y ago
Thanks for spreading the word, Ivan. The $10k is for the initial design and some design development based on community desires; this number does not include engineering and development. But all in all, the outcome is vastly lower cost to market.

vaksel 17y ago

wow 50K for such an ugly kit car? And thats only an estimate, we all know how car companies stick to estimates, thing will probably cost 75K when everything is said and done. And they are using a Diesel to power it? Why? Hardly something that I would call a car of my dreams. Also notice how high the center of gravity is. Thing will probably tip over at the first corner on the highway. There is a reason Tesla's first vehicle was a sports car, because thats the one car segment where people aren't weary of spending a ton of money. And a company can prove itself in a competitive market. If I were going to spend a ton of money on a kit car, I'd spend $28K on an Ultima GTR/Can-Am. Its a lot cheaper, and you get a lot more bang for your buck. And even if you don't know how to work on cars, it'll cost you like 10K to get it put together. So it'll still be cheaper than their estimated price

AriFerreira 17y ago
It's not for everyone, that is for certain! Where are you from, vaksel? Since you seem to have solid opinions on the type of vehicle you would like to drive (you mentioned type of vehicle, price, and powertrain) we would love for you to join the Local-Motors.com community and guide the vehicle choice process. This is what it's all about! The Rally Fighter is certainly not "all purpose" and does not satisfy my craving for a race car either. For off-roaders who either want to get into desert racing, or already do it, the vehicle makes sense - in some ways, maybe more sense than anything else on the market. And the idea of building it alongside an expert makes sense as well; if you are going to be out in the middle of nowhere and driving hard, it's best if you know how to take care of your vehicle yourself. Even if it just means changing a tire or building confidence in understanding the vehicle limitations, this is a cool experience for those who desire it. Again, not for everyone. And that's the point. The Local Motors experience is for the crazed car enthusiast - seems everyone knows one or two. Electric makes great sense for some places and I'm certain that Lm will build an EV sooner than later; but for desert racing I think clean diesel is best. The choice of powertrain is based on geographic availability of alternative fuel sources, as well as use of the vehicle. You can't race Baja w/ an EV. Where would you recharge on your 2k mile trek through Ensanada? As of yet, it's not feasible. Maybe in the future. I think it's arguable as to whether or not Local Motors should have entered the market w/ a Tesla-like sports car. But when you think of Tesla, Ron Motors, Fisker and others, do you think the playing field is a bit full? Surely there is room for others to compete at that level, but we are not at that level. We are not going to make very many Rally Fighters, and they will not be available all over the country. This is niche. We certainly have some proving to do but we are ready for the challenge! The format is viable, and so far the community is supportive of the Rally Fighter (and there is talk of an electric Boston Bullet). Hope to hear more of your thoughts. Ariel aferreira@local-motors.com
- vaksel 17y ago
  The thing is, offroaders like power like the rest of the gearheads, so engine choice is very important. Picking the BMW Diesel will pretty much mean that any mods the people do will cost them an arm and a leg. + I'm sure it's costing you a ton of money to use that particular engine. Offroaders aren't the hippie type to care about environment or mileage, hell most of them are running catless, so the whole clean diesel seems to be targeting the wrong demographic. And yes you should know how to take care of your vehicle, but thats the point, using the BMW engine pretty much means the thing will be an electronic nightmare, if these things are to be taken offroad, a person should be able to take it apart and put it together on a side of a road with nothing more than a socket wrench. I wasn't really arguing for electric cars, I just meant that Tesla as a new company targeted the sports car market to test the idea, because the sports car market is the only market where people are willing to pay a premium, even for an untested product. Offroaders do too, but the segment is infinitely smaller. It seems to me that the car is not built for the demographic you are targeting. a) Design: lower the chassis, and the car is pretty much the ideal design of what a hybrid coupe would look like. An offroader should look mean. It shouldn't look out of place covered in mud. b) Engine: Expensive to modify, expensive to maintain, requires a space shuttle manual to work on. c) Price point I know it says 50K, but we all know that its going to be higher once production begins. I just don't see that there'd be such a high demand for a 50K+ dedicated offroader. Not unless the thing completely trounces its competition. Take a look at Bowler Wildcat/Nemesis cars, thats pretty much what you are going to be competing with in your price range. And those things have actual racing pedigree with tons of wins under their belt. Anyways back to the sports car market. Yes its a saturated market, but its so much bigger than the offroad market. There is plenty of space as long as you build something people will want. And you have the whole build by people like you thing going for you, which would have helped. To me, if I were in your shoes I'd scrap the whole offroader idea and build a sports car. Lower the thing. Throw an engine in the rear. Paint the plastic. Its a much easier segment to compete in, compared to the offroader market.
  - AriFerreira 17y ago
    Prepare for a long response (my apologies for monopolizing this space) All good points. Let me address each point individually: Engine: Agree that offroaders like power; for the 3,000 – 3,200 lb offroader we are building, the BMW 335d offers substantial power. If customers want more power, and some will, there are plenty of tuner options available. The BMW engine is more expensive than other options, and it may be somewhat more challenging to take apart if you’re not use to it. But since all LM customers will build their own vehicle alongside an expert, and will take part in builder training – each customer will know the engine and the vehicle. Disagree that offroaders don’t care about clean diesel. If the proposal was to force enthusiasts to choose between performance and a “green” ride, I would agree with you; they will choose performance. But this is not an ultimatum. Enthusiasts want both – performance and sustainability. I say sustainability and not “green” purposely. Yes, we are reducing particulate emissions (this is what is usually meant by “green"); by lightweighting the vehicles and using the most efficient powertrain for the purpose of each segment, we are indeed “green”. But by also using an engine that is engineered for reliability (both BMW & diesel have superior reliability and sustainability) the need to replace parts is decreased and therefore more sustainable. There are other factors to consider, but these are the main points. In places like Arizona we have found that off-roaders are one of the primary groups to take care of the land. They want to preserve the area they so enjoy. This frame of mind opens them up to more sustainable options, like clean diesel – as long as they don’t have to give up performance, they are happy. And if more efficient sustainable options are not a demand of the market, but a mere tertiary benefit – Local Motors is happy because we are lending a hand in reducing our nations dependence on foreign oil and eventually, fossil fuels in general. Reduction of our reliance on foreign oil and fossil fuels is one of our pillars, which Local Motors is founded on. If we can make significant strides to promote a “no compromise” mentality, one that celebrates not only power but also efficiency in such a performance-driven market, then I would say we are proving ourselves just as well as Tesla or any of the others. Design: The Rally Fighter is a dual ride-height design. If you want it lower, it can be lowered. For off-roading you will want it higher so you can utilize all 18” of wheel travel. The Rally Fighter can jump – and that’s a big part of the fun. Remember that the stability of the vehicle has more to do with the weight displacement than the height of the vehicle. The engine is set low, lowering the point of gravity to the extent possible while maintaining ground clearance. The wide stance of the Rally Fighter also promotes stability. You are right that an off-roader should look mean – and the posted renderings are shiny and unmean looking (sorry!) We will muddy it up, and it will look more at home at that point. The stance and size make it aggressive in my eyes, but this is subjective. Price Point: $50k is not cheap, this we know. We will build less expensive vehicles for less expensive segments. We will also build Baja-ready Rally Fighters which will cost more than $50k. The Bowler Nemesis is a comparable vehicle in many senses, though we still see a few advantages with the Rally Fighter: The nemesis weighs about 1,000lbs more than the RF, and it costs over $130,000. Also the Nemesis runs on E85 – and there are exactly zero E85 refueling stations in Arizona. Building cars is not a new science and neither is building relatively efficient cars; we see great gains in efficiency simply by lightweighting. As a know-how kind of car guy, if you set your mind to it you could clearly build cars. Bringing desirable cars to market in a cost effective manner through a sustainable business model IS a new science – this is what Local Motors brings to the table. Still curious to know where you are located. Would love to open the conversation to the type of sports car you desire.

dan_the_welder 17y ago

Doomed. Edit: Because it's ugly. I went and looked at more designs, most belong to the "Art Instruction Schools" aesthetic. Because it's vaporware. Have they made 'one' yet? How do they intend to make the body? Fiberglass? That's the only thing they could possibly afford. If and only if they have access to a 5 axis CNC router and a CAM package to carve the plugs. You won't be able to get it financed in the foreseeable future. You will have to jump through unimaginable license hoops to register it yourself as a kit car.

AriFerreira 17y ago
Can't believe there are so many car guys here! This is awesome. The first production-ready prototype will be on the ground in late summer, and will be at SEMA in November. Production (meaning individual builds) will begin in the Fall of 2010. Including the community & local Southwest enthusiasts in the design & build process was necessary for LM to know we were bringing a desirable vehicle to market. The "opensource" aspect gained a lot of discussion early on. Now that we have incorporated the community desires in the design & engineering, we have a lot of proving to do. This is an exciting year. The body will be composite, panels on tubular welded steel spaceframe. We will use carbonfiber and thermaplastics for the panels. Financing anything is not as easy as it use to be. Our expectations are adjusted accordingly - we only aim to build about 3,000 in the lifetime of the vehicle, and probably only a few hundred in the first few years. Licensing as a kit car or custom vehicle isn't as hard as you might think - primarily because the engine and other parts are OEM. Thanks for the humbling, blunt review! Love it or hate it, at least the Rally Fighter isn't like everything else on the road. The pool of sameness can become monotonous.

vaksel 17y ago

I spent some time in photoshop turning it into a sports car, and here is the result: http://i41.tinypic.com/30cc6cz.jpg http://i41.tinypic.com/30cc6cz.jpg For $50K people would buy it, wouldn't matter if it was powered by hampsters or a Supercharged V8. Why? Because it would remind them of a baby Aston Martin. For engine choice I would probably use the engine out of the Chevrolet Camaro, GM is going bankrupt, so you can probably buy the engines on the cheap. And those engines are known for having a ton of potential. If GM doesn't work out, the 4.6L Ford would have to do. Of course can always follow in Lotus footsteps, keep the thing light, and use a supercharged/turbocharged 4 cylinder Honda/Toyota engine Thats the thing with most cars, looks account for 90% of public interest. As long as you make a truly beautiful car, people will buy it, even if its a complete piece of crap.

AriFerreira 17y ago
I didn't see this before - your design has legs. I'm not big on the spoiler but otherwise looks to be a beautiful "baby aston" just as you said. But I do see Fisker, and I do see Aston - what about a new brand?
- vaksel 17y ago
  All cars look more or less the same in the sports car segment. Yes it sorta looks like an Aston, but there is enough difference for it to be its own car. As far as its own brand, most of the "branding" is done on the front end of the car. Shouldn't be that hard to design a brand new grille that is your own.
  - AriFerreira 17y ago
    I think this could have enough uniqueness to stand on its own. You're right that the general shape of coupes or sedans is the same. But the long hood of the Fisker (and this RF coupe) is significant, and could be a brand indicator. The entire design language should be a brand indicator. I think GM had a similar thought: that a brand is a marque and a grille. They built the same cars w/ subtle changes and cannibalized Chevy and Pontiac. Not saying that is what you are doing here, but I am saying that a brand extends far beyond a grille.

lowkey 17y ago

It's bold, audacious, visionary and will most likely fail. I love it! Now if only they could find a way to recruit great engineers to do the heavy lifting to actually engineer and manufacture these vehicles. Kind of reminds me of Cambrian House - only harder because it is hardware. It might makes sense if they sold virtual cars, but as for actually producing vehicles in any volume I think it is far fetched.

AriFerreira 17y ago
We are building a community of engineers to work alongside the community of designers at local-motors.com. We already had one "Parts-Bin" competition to design the Rally Fighter side vent; the community chose the winner - a cohesive, functional and low-cost side-vent. As the community grows we will undertake more challenges in the engineering arena. After the LM community & team fully develop each vehicle, some building occurs in a centralized location (like chassis welding, etc.) Then each customer joins LM experts in the Local Micro-Factory (we will build micro-factories in regions across the US, hence the "Local" :)) for the build experience & training. Vehicles are built Just-In-Time by each individual customer. This project takes two short weekends. If you have an LM vehicle, you have a more powerful understanding of your vehicle - because you built it. Seems crazy to crowdsource such a large physical product. But mostly we are crowdsourcing desire and ideas so that we can build only desirable cars. Local Motors has to make many decisions independently in order to make it to market in an efficient, cost-effective manner.

jrogers 17y ago

@vaksel Correction, I was distinguishing the 335 from the X6, we are using the 335d. As for why not the 335i, The carbon footprint is worse than the 335d given that it is 30% less fuel efficient. We are focused on changing the impact of vehicles and this is a good way to start. If we were going to go for a gas system, we are prepared to offer the LS series engines. More hp by 430 vs 300. I hear you on the "Performance, Reliability, Price...choose 2" That has been true in the past, but we do not think that applies when you compare our product+experience to others product. LM is "Design, Performance, Buildability, Price...choose 3 (green is a given)". Our customers want great looking and great performance, and don't want to be keyed in the parking lot for driving something whose mpg is measured in gpm vice mpg. If someone wants to race and get more than the 425lb-ft from the 335d, then they have the room to swap to an LS7 and to crank it up. As for road legal, you are thinking of passenger car specs, this vehicle would classify as a mixed use vehicle in which case many of the FMVSS specs to which you are referring would not be applicable. Hope that helps. As for buggies and dirtbikes occupying the market...I guess I am just not going to be able to convince you and should not try. But here goes. ATVs and Bikes are a TOTALLY different experience which require a much more fit rider and mindset. Buggies are not anywhere near as capable as "trucks" made for this landscape (to be precise, we are talking about 25mph max vs 70mph avg.) Then there is the subject of Pre-running. Much of it today is done either in sand-rail/types or in sup'd up F-150/types. Most races (i.e. Reno to Vegas) are pre-run in a column of cars where you are simply eating dust the entire day. So sandrails are miserable, go ask John Marking of Fox Racing. As for sup'd up F-150 types after spending in excess of 150K you will have 10 inches of wheel travel and a 7000lb vehicle that needs a 700+ hp engine to move it, and it becomes a veritable space race of mass and power. The whole point is that no company has ever seen the profit in making cars for this size market, but LM makes cars with a much lower break-even volume allowing us to access a much smaller niche. Even if you are right and the market is not as large as we would want, we will have invested less than $2MM in the build program, so we can afford to scrap it and move on to the next ...compare this to Fisker or Tesla (other startup car co.'s) that have each raised in excess of $200MM and only have 1 model competing in very VERY busy marget segments. As for MA, you are at Y-Combinator and should understand this. Just because we are starting in MA doesn't mean that we are finishing here. We are in a small startup Ops Center. We have 2 letters of intent on properties in Phoenix and are already working on our MA model. When we started we had no idea that the community would like the performance off-road desert racing segment, so we couldn't predict where would be best to go...so we dove in and got started. Hindsight is 20-20, but I prefer to get going. After all, this is unlike any start-up in any typical venture type market, so some of the nimble ideas do not apply as well. We are building a car company in an intensely difficult time and are taking risks where we feel appropriate and necessary and taking them large. Where we do not need to take risk, we are intensely conservative. I also hope that this helps. Again, I am so stoked that you care enough to dig and to answer. I really think that our community could use your insight...hope you will join www.local-motors.com

jrogers 17y ago

Correction, I was distinguishing the 335 from the X6, we are using the 335d. As for why not the 335i, The carbon footprint is worse than the 335d given that it is 30% less fuel efficient. We are focused on changing the impact of vehicles and this is a good way to start. If we were going to go for a gas system, we are prepared to offer the LS series engines. More hp by 430 vs 300. I hear you on the "Performance, Reliability, Price...choose 2" That has been true in the past, but we do not think that applies when you compare our product+experience to others product. LM is "Design, Performance, Buildability, Price...choose 3 (green is a given)". Our customers want great looking and great performance, and don't want to be keyed in the parking lot for driving something whose mpg is measured in gpm vice mpg. If someone wants to race and get more than the 425lb-ft from the 335d, then they have the room to swap to an LS7 and to crank it up. As for road legal, you are thinking of passenger car specs, this vehicle would classify as a mixed use vehicle in which case many of the FMVSS specs to which you are referring would not be applicable. Hope that helps. As for buggies and dirtbikes occupying the market...I guess I am just not going to be able to convince you and should not try. But here goes. ATVs and Bikes are a TOTALLY different experience which require a much more fit rider and mindset. Buggies are not anywhere near as capable as "trucks" made for this landscape (to be precise, we are talking about 25mph max vs 70mph avg.) Then there is the subject of Pre-running. Much of it today is done either in sand-rail/types or in sup'd up F-150/types. Most races (i.e. Reno to Vegas) are pre-run in a column of cars where you are simply eating dust the entire day. So sandrails are miserable, go ask John Marking of Fox Racing. As for sup'd up F-150 types after spending in excess of 150K you will have 10 inches of wheel travel and a 7000lb vehicle that needs a 700+ hp engine to move it, and it becomes a veritable space race of mass and power. The whole point is that no company has ever seen the profit in making cars for this size market, but LM makes cars with a much lower break-even volume allowing us to access a much smaller niche. Even if you are right and the market is not as large as we would want, we will have invested less than $2MM in the build program, so we can afford to scrap it and move on to the next ...compare this to Fisker or Tesla (other startup car co.'s) that have each raised in excess of $200MM and only have 1 model competing in very VERY busy marget segments. As for MA, you are at Y-Combinator and should understand this. Just because we are starting in MA doesn't mean that we are finishing here. We are in a small startup Ops Center. We have 2 letters of intent on properties in Phoenix and are already working on our MA model. When we started we had no idea that the community would like the performance off-road desert racing segment, so we couldn't predict where would be best to go...so we dove in and got started. Hindsight is 20-20, but I prefer to get going. After all, this is unlike any start-up in any typical venture type market, so some of the nimble ideas do not apply as well. We are building a car company in an intensely difficult time and are taking risks where we feel appropriate and necessary and taking them large. Where we do not need to take risk, we are intensely conservative. I also hope that this helps. Again, I am so stoked that you care enough to dig and to answer. I really think that our community could use your insight...hope you will join www.local-motors.com