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The Data Behind H-1B Visas
- seldo 13y agoApparently "Apple Inc" and "Apple Inc." are separate companies?
- jacques_chester 13y agoWelcome to the exciting world of data cleansing!
- Amadou 13y agoThe article says that the biggest employers are "consulting companies" it would be more correct to say they are off-shoring companies. The disconnect between the rhetoric about H1B and the reality is staggering. http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/04/03/176134694/Whos-Hiring-H1-B-Visa-Workers-Its-Not-Who-You-Might-Think http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechconsidered/2013/04/03/176134... I also want to point out that despite the occasional anecdote of H1B visa holders being paid equal to, or even better than, their US citizen counterparts there is exactly zero budget for enforcement of this requirement. Even then, there are classification tricks to work around the occasional cursory check-up. http://www.cringely.com/2012/10/23/what-americans-dont-know-about-h-1b-visas-could-hurt-us-all/ http://www.cringely.com/2012/10/23/what-americans-dont-know-...
- ojbyrne 13y agoThat latter article says "It’s a non-immigrant visa and so has nothing at all to do with staying in the USA, becoming a citizen, or starting a business." which is incorrect. It's a dual intent visa (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_intent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_intent). I didn't really read past that.
- Amadou 13y agoThat seems like a rather minor point to focus on. As the wiki article you linked to spells out, dual-intent just means that the visa-holder is not barred from applying for a green-card while in country. It isn't like holding an H1B is a necessary part of the process for getting a green card, or even necessarily a leg up on the process.
- blinkingled 13y ago>It isn't like holding an H1B is a necessary part of the process for getting a green card, or even necessarily a leg up on the process. How else does a young graduate outside of US, not part of the diversity green card program get a Green Card without H1-B or L1 Visas? Realistically H1-B/L1 visas are the only option for many people aspiring for green cards.
- Amadou 13y agoYou are seeing it from the POV of the applicant, not from the POV of the people who designed the H1B visa program. It is their intent that matters and if their intent were to facilitate such people's immigration there are better ways to do it since the green card process takes nearly the maximum term of an H1B visa. If you don't start the process from basically day one, you are probably not going to get that green card. If you switch employers mid-stream, the green-card process must restart which puts a practical end to it too.
- blinkingled 13y ago>If you don't start the process from basically day one, you are probably not going to get that green card. If you switch employers mid-stream, the green-card process must restart which puts a practical end to it too. And the alternative to that is to do what? Not bother and not try getting the green card?
- Amadou 13y agoThe alternative would be a visa that was designed to avoid such punitive requirements. One that fast-tracked the applicant to a green card and automatically extended the term in case there was a delay in issuing the green card.
- nandemo 13y agoIt is a non-immigrant visa since it doesn't give you permanent residence. However, the "and so has nothing to do..." part is a non-sequitur indeed.
- sp_ 13y agoShameless plug: For more H-1B salary visualizations check out http://www.salar.ly/ http://www.salar.ly/ :)
- chermanowicz 13y agothis is an ok starting point, but would be far more interesting if you were able to compare against average industry salaries based on the job titles... and average salaries for the employers
- kamjam 13y agoConsulting companies provide the most H-1B Visas. Infosys Limited, Wipro Limited, Cognizant and PriceWaterhouseCoopers take the gold by awarding a combined 67,139 H-1B visas. What is the relation between the "Applications Submitted" and "Employees Hired"? Given that this is just 2012 data, the there is a hard limit of 65,000 H1-B visas per year, this doesn't make sense to me. The figure in the article is a little misleading, I presume that the figured is over the past x years?
- agilecoder 13y agoAs I commented above these data reflect Labor Condition Applications (LCAs) granted. denied, etc. This is only one part of the application for a visa, and every year the DOL certifies far more LCAs than there are available visas. To find out what visas were actually issued that information would come from US Citizenship and Immigration Service, and as far as I can find they do not release that information.
- nknighthb 13y agoThe State Department has it. Second row on the second page of this PDF: http://www.travel.state.gov/pdf/FY12AnnualReport-TableXVIB.pdf http://www.travel.state.gov/pdf/FY12AnnualReport-TableXVIB.p... The rest of the 2012 report PDFs are listed at: http://www.travel.state.gov/visa/statistics/statistics_5861.html http://www.travel.state.gov/visa/statistics/statistics_5861....
- agilecoder 13y agoYou're right, the State Department has raw numbers of visas approved, but still no way to connect them to employers, industries, occupations or wages as the original post attempted to present.
- jacalata 13y agothere is a hard limit of 65,000 H1-B visas per year, Not quite - the article actually explains the ways that this limit can be exceeded. That said, I find their numbers pretty odd - 150,000 applications leading to 300,000 approvals? For a post that is showing off their charting/presentation capabilities, it's very poorly presented data.
- patrickod 13y agoUnsurprising to find that such a small percentage of applications were for musicians / singers. Is that not what the artist category in the O visa was designed for? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_visa http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O_visa
- potatolicious 13y agoThe O visa is only for people who can demonstrate "extraordinary" capability. This usually means published, well-known, etc. Not all artists and musicians qualify.
- philwelch 13y agoIs that the mechanism for the world's celebrities to live in LA?
- jacques_chester 13y agoIt's also used for heart surgeons, Nobel prize winners, elite athletes and so on.
- sireat 13y agoMy father got the O visa after being on investor visa for some years. He said it was the fastest way to the green card but quite expensive in legal fees. While he has a couple of patents, the crucial thing was the business notability for which lawyers recommended getting testimonials from upper management in publicly known companies such as Apple and Dell instead of lesser known industry specific companies.
- codexon 13y agoObligatory links to H-1B studies sure to stir controversy here. http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/h1b.html http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/h1b.html http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/h1bwritings.html http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/h1bwritings.html
- agilecoder 13y agoThe biggest thing to know about these data from the US Department of Labor (DOL) is that they DO NOT reflect visas granted. They reflect Labor Condition Applications (LCAs) granted. denied, etc. This is only one part of the application for a visa, and every year the DOL certifies far more LCAs than there are available visas. It is impossible to tell from the LCA data what companies actually followed through with the rest of the process and fees and were able to sponsor a foreign worker before the visa cap was hit each year. That information would come from US Citizenship and Immigration Service, and as far as I can find they do not release that information.
- jacalata 13y agoaha, that explains why there are 300,000 approvals for the year. Thanks!
- ChuckMcM 13y agoThis is the money line: Job Description Applied Received Avg Salary -------------------- ------- -------- ---------- Computer Programmers 55922 52342 (93%) $63,916 We need H1-B visas because there is a shortage of computer programmers living in the United States who will work for $64,000 a year when the average salary of all programmers is $94,000 [1]. That narrative gets lost though. [1] http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Computer+Programmer&l1=San+Francisco+Bay+Area%2C+CA http://www.indeed.com/salary?q1=Computer+Programmer&l1=San+F...
- drpgq 13y agoA related point, that's $64K salary for people often going to a high income high cost state (California).
- ryandrake 13y agoKeep in mind, to a great majority of voters, $64,000 is an enormous salary. When told "We cannot find high-tech talent, even after offering $64,000" most voters (who make much less) will agree with the statement, "We need to look outside our borders for high-tech talent".
- Aloisius 13y agoNever mind it is illegal to use H1-Bs as a source of cheap labor. I've actually reported a company who posted a H1-B notice for a software engineering position that I happened to see while visiting that was clearly 30% below market rate.
- mavelikara 13y agoWhat happened after you reported it? Did the DoL contact you? Was the LCA denied? I am curious.
- 001sky 13y agomost voters (who make much less) will agree with the statement, "We need to look outside our borders for high-tech talent" == Source? A (genuine) subsample of "voters" earning under $64k are unlikely to support foreign labour substitution of any kind. In part, this is because the majority of these folks do not reside near silicon valley. Average wages in metro areas, excluding "slums", are significantly higher tha the US average. Stratify Manhatten south of 96th street, for example, vs Metro New york. The support for H1Bs is higher amongst the "manager" class than the working class. The working class gets no benefit from H1Bs. To the working class 64k may be an enourmous salary, but it is not to the manager class. So again, the idea that "workers" have any interest in supporting this is silly. Alternatively, if they had any interest in this area, they would be already working in it, an thus not consider 64k "real money", because their housing costs are likely 10x that, given the areas in which they need to reside. Lastly, the h1bs don't apply to the type of low-skill labour that concerns the immigration/green card dynamics that the urban minorities/poor do suppor. H1Bs are supported primarily by wealth white suburbia and the "landed gentry" of upper management in urban areas.
- greenyoda 13y agoInteresting that the 11th largest employer of H-1B workers is the NYC Department of Education, with 5219 H-1Bs. Also, there's some invalid data in the database: "Brooklyn, NY" is listed as a city, but it's not (it's a borough of NYC). That also means that the numbers for NYC are wrong, since they apparently don't include Brooklyn. This brings into question how reliable the rest of the data is.
- datdo 13y agoThe boroughs of NYC are unique in that they are counties, cities, and also part of NYC. Stating Brooklyn or Queens or w/e instead of NYC in the city column is allowed. So the cause is multiple authors of applications, not bad data.
- ffrryuu 13y agoWe need to get rid of H-1B and replace it with a green card program. Win win for everyone.
- dpweb 13y agoControversial issue for sure and will continue to be. Encourage folks to Google the IEEE articles lately on the 'worker shortage issue' and statistics. Interesting stuff.
- shreyansj 13y agoEvery discussion on H-1B visas always misses the point that it is the only way for a non-US citizen student, graduating from a US university, to work in the US on a long term basis. For a more meaningful analysis, it is important to consider the educational background of the H-1B worker.
- ng12 13y agoWhich is another reason why the H1-B needs to be reworked, not ramped up. It's too catch-all, and too often abused.
- jacques_chester 13y agoActually, it depends on your country of origin. Canadians and Mexicans can get access via the TN visa. Australians can get access via the E-3 visa.
- Sukotto 13y agoOn a side note. Can anyone recommend a good immigration lawyer I can talk to about working in the US? I'm Canadian, living in Canada, and considering a move back to the US to work. However, I have a somewhat complicated history with US Immigration and I'd like professional advice to figure out my options. Have you had a good experience with an immigration lawyer (In either the US or Canada)? If so, please post a link to their site (or email me if you prefer: sukotto.filter@gmail.com )
- mabbo 13y agoGet hired by a good company that wants you, and wants to pay you well. Then have them hire a good lawyer to get you into the country. Alternatively, there are lots of those west coast companies opening offices in Toronto. Get hired there, then get a transfer.
- adkatrit 13y agomore relevant data. https://chartio.com/project/11916/dash/h1b-visa-applications-2012%2C14214/public/ https://chartio.com/project/11916/dash/h1b-visa-applications...
- eliben 13y agoWhat are those consulting companies like Wipro and Infosys actually doing with all those H-1Bs? Comments here refer to them as offshoring companies, but how does offshoring play with bringing more programmers into the US with H-1Bs?
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- mabbo 13y agoMy company is listed as having many H1B's. As a previous holder of a TN visa (NAFTA, yay) we were highly encouraged to get an H1B. Why? because the US border patrol would harass TN holders, and try to trick us into saying the wrong thing so they could take away our work Visas. Going home to visit family and friends became a real risk that we might lose our jobs. We were told "Do not cross at this crossing on these days of the week" because we'd had so many incidents of one guy who would just arbitrarily take away TN visas. An H1B meant safety.
- colmvp 13y agoI guess. Most of my friends including myself who are Canadian or Mexican and working in the U.S. got TN visas and never have a problem at the border. Personally I prefer the TN because its been a ridiculously easy visa to acquire in terms of money and time.
- ap3 13y agoLet me guess - you're Canadian
- ojbyrne 13y agoYour point is?
- hbharadwaj 13y agoWhy on earth would anyone combine PwC with Infosys and Wipro? Infosys and Wipro represent the lesser expensive labor band while PwC is a true accounting and consulting firm. Consulting in this context is so muddled up. True Consulting: McKinsey, Deloitte, PwC, KPMG, EY, etc., Off-shoring/Lesser expensive labor: Infosys, Wipro, Cognizant etc., Granted Infosys and Wipro may have some true consulting guys, but to put them in the same bucket as McKinsey or EY is a little ridiculous.
- to_jon 13y agoThe number of annual H-1B hires by Wipro and Infosys coupled with the corresponding average salary data reveal the extent of abuse in the current system. Indian developers are imported into the US to essentially provide an in-house alternative to offshoring, with pernicious consequences for the US economy and the high tech labor pool within the US. A small disclaimer- I'm not a bitter ex-developer who lost his job with a large US corporation in the recent past. In fact, I'm an internet dude in San Francisco, personally unaffected by these policies. I'm also convinced that Intel and other cutting edge companies absolutely need access to more brilliant tech minds through the H1-B program. Let me point out a few obvious and unsettling problems that stem from Infosys and its ilk directly importing developers into the IT offices of US corporations. First and foremost, if the number of programmers in this country is a real issue (see excellent article linked at bottom) and one that you're serious about solving, then the consequences of underpaid H1-B developers is troublesome. When companies can replace US hires with H1-B consultants, not only do US developers become comparatively expensive, but the number of job openings is also reduced, artificially holding down IT salaries. The market's answer to a shortage in supply is higher prices- yet stagnant IT salaries remain an obstacle to the tech industry attracting more talent ("in computing and IT, wages have generally been stagnant for the past decade, according to the EPI"). Money can absolutely make IT more cool, but unless you land in a promising startup, you're better off pursuing a career in finance or attending business school. In the context of a country burdened with stagnanet wages and a growing wealth gap, repressed IT salaires are even more distrubing. While IT automation allows corporations to significantly downsize and slash mid-level executives across the board, the IT developers directly responsible for these greater efficiencies can never expect to earn the same $300k salaries of the laid off executives. You might think that as high paying US middle management jobs are lost, equally attractive IT jobs might help stem the drain on US middle class incomes. But there are few signs that even the supposedly systemic shortages of programmers in a country where "software is eating the world" can lift IT salaries across the board, year over year, over a significant period of time. Ask yourself- why hasn't IT wage inflation, inevitable under the normal market conditions of a true shortage, reduced corporate profits by even one tenth of one percent over the past decade? Just as troubling, US corporations can lean on H1-B consultants as a band-aid that lets them avoid the steps needed to actually address the underlying problems they see in the tech labor market. Despite record profits, how many corporations have revamped their technology department training and recruitment practices, or started offering better benefits and improved career paths to new IT hires? Why don't college-bound kids generally show even the slightest amout of excitement when asked about the promise of working in IT? The answer is simple- those jobs are no more attractive than they were 10 or 20 years ago. Exciting opportunities for advancement or higher pay or even the opportunity for mentorship from leaders in non-IT parts of the business? Good luck with that! Let's face it, beyond the opportunity to indulge your joy of coding on a daily basis, IT jobs still suck. H1-B programs let corporations avoid spending resources needed for real, substantial improvements. Is there actually a STEM shortage? http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/education/the-stem-crisis-is-a-myth http://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/education/the-stem-crisis-i...
- marcjgm 13y agoI don't mean to be mean, but this is a pointless piece. There's a number of reasons for such a high rate of acceptance and the piece doesn't really tell much more aside from some salary info. One reason so many who apply actually get H1-Bs is that there is a cutoff (at which point they don't accept new applicants). This is (for the last few years) about a week after they're actually released (April). Though you can apply before this time, companies usually want you to start asap and so won't apply unless the time frame for application is right. The threshold for application is also super high (doc requirements, company proof, $$$), thus increasing the likelihood that an application put forward will most likely be accepted. Most immigration lawyers will counsel against putting forward applications they think won't succeed to avoid the having angry clients. It's pretty clear (80-90% certainty) to most immigration lawyers what will and won't work. Not sure what this study really tells us aside from the fact that it's so hard just to apply for an H1B that if you do, you'll probably get it.
- ray_manta 13y agoSo I've been in the US on a H1B visa for more than 3 years now, and I believe some of the comments in here are misleaded. First myth: H1B get lower salaries. For knowing a decent number of people with H1B, me included, I can say that's not the case. All of the people with H1B I know are paid more than 100k/year (some WAY more than that) at full-time positions with good health care and, for the people who work in startups, decent equity. True it may be that the first job you get as an H1B might be paid less, I was at 60k when I started, but on my second job almost doubled my salary, and still got a significant increase in my second change. Second myth: You cannot change jobs with an H1B. This is completely wrong. I have changed job twice in the past 3 years, and it's really easy. You just need to work with your new employer to get a new form which might take 2 to 3 weeks, but the process is pretty straight-forward, and even startups can do this easily without requiring armies of lawyers. Of course I can't say that this is true for every single H1B employee out there, but from my experience I haven't seen much difference with US citizens/permanent residents, and would even go so far as saying that the most competent people I've had the chance to work with were on H1B visas. Some people need to stop and learn before saying that "We need H1-B visas because there is a shortage of computer programmers living in the United States who will work for $64,000 a year when the average salary of all programmers is $94,000"...
- jussij 13y ago> I was at 60k when I started, but on my second job almost doubled my salary, and still got a significant increase in my second change. This is a clear indication that your skill set is in high demand. > "We need H1-B visas because there is a shortage of computer programmers living in the United States who will work for $64,000 a year when the average salary of all programmers is $94,000"... Doesn't your previous comment actually confirm this statement? You took a HIB job paying a wage that did not accurately reflect your skill level and your ability to move up in wage scale so easily is a clear indication of that fact.