3 ms·

You can do anything you want in this country In light of the other comments, I would like to add: not just in the US. You can do that in any civilised country.

gaius 17y ago
The US, UK, Canada etc, yes - countries with long traditions of immigrants both assimilating and contributing to their culture. It's an order of magnitude more difficult in a country without that tradition. Most places in the world, immigrants with no ties to the country are an economic and social underclass, with just the occasional success. Try being Moroccan in France or Turkish in Germany. There're very few places where there's even close to a level playing field.
- Confusion 17y ago
  Try being an African American in the US? There's always history and other contingent circumstances to consider. In that light it is unfair to compare a Chinese immigrant in the US with a Moroccan immigrant in France. At least compare them to a Chinese immigrant in France. BTW, I think Turks in Germany are actually doing very well.
  - tjic 17y ago
    > Try being an African American in the US Yeah, you might end up as president.
    - Confusion 17y ago
      Yeah, in gaius' words 'you might have occasional successes'. African Americans are as much 'an economic and social underclass' in the US as Moroccans are in France.
      - billm 17y ago
        There's always a STUPID comment made on every site, any given moment and at any given second of the day.. The prize goes to... "Confusion"... the name says it all..
        Confusion 17y ago
        Are you even following the discussion? Are 'African Americans' such a touchy subject that your capacity to comprehend what is being said is failing you when someone mentions them as being 'a social and economic underclass'? That is not a judgment or moral statement about them: it is simply a factual statement about their predicament. It is about what is the state of affairs in the world. Let me spell this exchange out for you: - Several comments applaud the US for allowing immigrants to succeed. - I point out that it's not the US, it's the OP. He could have succeeded in all of western civilization, as immigrants do. - Gaius thinks only the US, UK and Canada are 'countries with long traditions of immigrants both assimilating and contributing to their culture'. He especially thinks Turks in Germany and Moroccans in France are 'an economic and social underclass'. - I point out that this has to do with historical factors: there are many Moroccans in France, because it was a French colony for a long time. You could practically consider those Maroccans French. I point out that for those reasons, they are more comparable to African Americans, who also happen to be 'an economic and social underclass' (if that term applies to Moroccans in France, it applies to African Americans in the US. I'm going along with the discussion here, not arguing about a term I may not like). On the other hand, Algerians are well integrated in French society, as are Turks in Germany. - Someone completely misses the point, because he mentions something that gaius himself had already covered as not being a good argument. (Perhaps it was only a joke?) - I rehash the original point Now if you would please care to explain what is stupid about that?
        billm 17y ago
        Here are the issues with your points 1) Perhaps it was only a joke If you want to be taken seriously this doesn't work when addressing an often times sensitive topic .. Communication 101. 2) You stated ... I point out that this has to do with historical factors: there are many Moroccans in France, because it was a French colony for a long time. You could practically consider those Maroccans French. A Moroccan would never consider themselves french. (if your interested in references no problem) Thats calling an Assyrian and Iraqi or white or jewish.. 3) You quoted.. African Americans are as much 'an economic and social underclass' in the US as Moroccans are in France. This is where you quoted Gaius then added the note above.. Don't hide behind a quote from someone else then add your own statement and then attempt to pass it off as the original statement. 4) You stated.. It is about what is the state of affairs in the world How does this beginning comment and the subsequent comments thereafter address the question of the original author? I see a point possibly that he can make it regardless of his socio-economic status and that others has.. just say it.. keep it simple your going into dangerous territory otherwise... you message gets vague.. and losses its point and got clouded with your own statement which was pass off as a quote by Gaius..
      - mistermann 17y ago
        Honestly, could you point me to any substantial documentation of Af-Americans putting in the same amount of work but running into barriers? I realize they are largely at the bottom of the rung, but it is my perception that it is largely because of a culture of refusing to "sell out", ie: learn to speak proper english, drop the attitude, delay gratification, etc. Yes I fully realize this is a racist attitude, but I honestly haven't seen anything noteworthy to make me think otherwise. (FWIW...I think a ridiculously large proportion of "whites" are incredibly unskilled and unintelligent as well....but it seems to me they don't put effort into it, they are just accidentally incompetent).
        billm 17y ago
        You admit to making racist comments, but seem to be very confident in your thoughts, and you seem to be a bright guy how can you be so certain of your self-admitted unintelligent views. Your perspective is a perspective taken by most who lacks understanding. I appreciate that. I even appreciate your opinion. I realize that you admit that they are limited to your world of perspective, by adopting racist views,understand that they lack perspective and significant thought. We are all limited by our perspective and to speak with limited perspective is to speak often time foolishly. I'm sure you have people that may listen to you and that may look up to you. Do the world a favor and simply state that what you say are based on your opinion and your perspective is limited. That's your disclaimer.
        mistermann 17y ago
        I think maybe you missed my point....I was questioning the statement: "African Americans are as much 'an economic and social underclass' in the US as Moroccans are in France." I think we can accept this as a general truth, correct? My question was related to why this is, as in, is this position deserved (as in, not earning a better position, in the aggregate), or is it due to being underrewarded for performing the same work as other classes. I was hoping someone could point me in the direction of studies on this specific angle. As noted, I am fully aware that my current best guess on this is racist, that is not my question....my question is, is it correct (despite being racist). I know all "broad minded" people such as yourself "know" everyone is equal, but others, such as myself, prefer some study into it. All I have to go on from my perspective in life is what I see/encounter, and people's opinions (often based on only a theory).
joel_feather 17y ago
That's not right. Many countries have a very unlevel playing field.

gaius 17y ago

The US, UK, Canada etc, yes - countries with long traditions of immigrants both assimilating and contributing to their culture. It's an order of magnitude more difficult in a country without that tradition. Most places in the world, immigrants with no ties to the country are an economic and social underclass, with just the occasional success. Try being Moroccan in France or Turkish in Germany. There're very few places where there's even close to a level playing field.

Confusion 17y ago
Try being an African American in the US? There's always history and other contingent circumstances to consider. In that light it is unfair to compare a Chinese immigrant in the US with a Moroccan immigrant in France. At least compare them to a Chinese immigrant in France. BTW, I think Turks in Germany are actually doing very well.
- tjic 17y ago
  > Try being an African American in the US Yeah, you might end up as president.
  - Confusion 17y ago
    Yeah, in gaius' words 'you might have occasional successes'. African Americans are as much 'an economic and social underclass' in the US as Moroccans are in France.
    - billm 17y ago
      There's always a STUPID comment made on every site, any given moment and at any given second of the day.. The prize goes to... "Confusion"... the name says it all..
      - Confusion 17y ago
        Are you even following the discussion? Are 'African Americans' such a touchy subject that your capacity to comprehend what is being said is failing you when someone mentions them as being 'a social and economic underclass'? That is not a judgment or moral statement about them: it is simply a factual statement about their predicament. It is about what is the state of affairs in the world. Let me spell this exchange out for you: - Several comments applaud the US for allowing immigrants to succeed. - I point out that it's not the US, it's the OP. He could have succeeded in all of western civilization, as immigrants do. - Gaius thinks only the US, UK and Canada are 'countries with long traditions of immigrants both assimilating and contributing to their culture'. He especially thinks Turks in Germany and Moroccans in France are 'an economic and social underclass'. - I point out that this has to do with historical factors: there are many Moroccans in France, because it was a French colony for a long time. You could practically consider those Maroccans French. I point out that for those reasons, they are more comparable to African Americans, who also happen to be 'an economic and social underclass' (if that term applies to Moroccans in France, it applies to African Americans in the US. I'm going along with the discussion here, not arguing about a term I may not like). On the other hand, Algerians are well integrated in French society, as are Turks in Germany. - Someone completely misses the point, because he mentions something that gaius himself had already covered as not being a good argument. (Perhaps it was only a joke?) - I rehash the original point Now if you would please care to explain what is stupid about that?
        billm 17y ago
        Here are the issues with your points 1) Perhaps it was only a joke If you want to be taken seriously this doesn't work when addressing an often times sensitive topic .. Communication 101. 2) You stated ... I point out that this has to do with historical factors: there are many Moroccans in France, because it was a French colony for a long time. You could practically consider those Maroccans French. A Moroccan would never consider themselves french. (if your interested in references no problem) Thats calling an Assyrian and Iraqi or white or jewish.. 3) You quoted.. African Americans are as much 'an economic and social underclass' in the US as Moroccans are in France. This is where you quoted Gaius then added the note above.. Don't hide behind a quote from someone else then add your own statement and then attempt to pass it off as the original statement. 4) You stated.. It is about what is the state of affairs in the world How does this beginning comment and the subsequent comments thereafter address the question of the original author? I see a point possibly that he can make it regardless of his socio-economic status and that others has.. just say it.. keep it simple your going into dangerous territory otherwise... you message gets vague.. and losses its point and got clouded with your own statement which was pass off as a quote by Gaius..
    - mistermann 17y ago
      Honestly, could you point me to any substantial documentation of Af-Americans putting in the same amount of work but running into barriers? I realize they are largely at the bottom of the rung, but it is my perception that it is largely because of a culture of refusing to "sell out", ie: learn to speak proper english, drop the attitude, delay gratification, etc. Yes I fully realize this is a racist attitude, but I honestly haven't seen anything noteworthy to make me think otherwise. (FWIW...I think a ridiculously large proportion of "whites" are incredibly unskilled and unintelligent as well....but it seems to me they don't put effort into it, they are just accidentally incompetent).
      - billm 17y ago
        You admit to making racist comments, but seem to be very confident in your thoughts, and you seem to be a bright guy how can you be so certain of your self-admitted unintelligent views. Your perspective is a perspective taken by most who lacks understanding. I appreciate that. I even appreciate your opinion. I realize that you admit that they are limited to your world of perspective, by adopting racist views,understand that they lack perspective and significant thought. We are all limited by our perspective and to speak with limited perspective is to speak often time foolishly. I'm sure you have people that may listen to you and that may look up to you. Do the world a favor and simply state that what you say are based on your opinion and your perspective is limited. That's your disclaimer.
        mistermann 17y ago
        I think maybe you missed my point....I was questioning the statement: "African Americans are as much 'an economic and social underclass' in the US as Moroccans are in France." I think we can accept this as a general truth, correct? My question was related to why this is, as in, is this position deserved (as in, not earning a better position, in the aggregate), or is it due to being underrewarded for performing the same work as other classes. I was hoping someone could point me in the direction of studies on this specific angle. As noted, I am fully aware that my current best guess on this is racist, that is not my question....my question is, is it correct (despite being racist). I know all "broad minded" people such as yourself "know" everyone is equal, but others, such as myself, prefer some study into it. All I have to go on from my perspective in life is what I see/encounter, and people's opinions (often based on only a theory).

joel_feather 17y ago

That's not right. Many countries have a very unlevel playing field.