4 ms·

my theory is that there are not a lot of women in tech jobs because the men in tech jobs generally don't know how to interact with women. any woman that shows a

my theory is that there are not a lot of women in tech jobs because the men in tech jobs generally don't know how to interact with women. any woman that shows an interest in tech is not disuaded by the material, but rather by the inability of her male coworkers to treat her normally. I would not want to work or study in an environment surrounded by social akwardness and harassment either. the problem lies with the men.

nilved 13y ago
Was there ever any doubt that the problem lies with men?
- skylan_q 13y ago
  Was there ever any doubt that the problem lies with men? Not for the last 80 years.
- drdaeman 13y ago
  Yes. Those classmates didn't invent that sandwich stereotypes on their own, they got it from the environment. I think the problem is not with men or women in particular, but society in general, as it has a concept that genders are socially different while they're [mostly] not. I strongly suspect, neither men, nor women are prerogative carriers of such stereotypes - although, naturally, as those stereotypes are discriminating to women, they're primarily opposed by them, not men.
smoyer 13y ago
Hmmm ... with that theory you'd also have to explain the odd concentration of socially inept males in tech. Why are they pooling there? Is it a "low spot" where gravity leaves a puddle? (street cred based on brain-cells instead of muscle and the ability to completely avoid physical interaction sure sounds like a win to a severe introvert).
- untog 13y ago
  Why are they pooling there? Is it a "low spot" where gravity leaves a puddle? Kind of, yes. Programming is a decidedly anti-social job in many ways, and suits the socially inept. That's not all a negative thing- it's possible to be successful through your skills alone, and few other jobs provide that path.
  - zalambar 13y ago
    Unless you are a minority in the field in which case your success apparently requires tolerating disproportionate abuse from your socially inept peers. Hardly the meritocratic environment we like to imagine here.
tokenizer 13y ago
But that seems impossible. Most men I know that program have general social problems, not just relating to women. The field itself is of interest to the slightly colder, and more rational mindset. I'm not saying we can't fix this problem. We can do that by hiring more well rounded people for programming positions. The same type of male techie who would mistreat a woman at the workplace, would mistreat a man too. I don't necessarily think being odd is wrong as long as you're not hurting someone. Personally it's the tech industries fault in general, which continues to pander to the academic and elitist groupings to foster talent, which is in and of itself unequal. Add to the fact that these groupings contain their own patriarchal problems and the picture becomes even more complex. Personally I don't feel like we need 50% women in the tech industry. I feel like everyone should be given an equal chance at learning as many skills as possible in a fostering learning environment. The fact that schools, parents, etc don't accomplish this can't all be blamed on the industry itself. Many engineering subjects suffer from these larger societal problems that relate with entrenched social roles and patriarchal institutions. Making the average Joe reading hacker news aware of these problems are important, but laying the blame on all men, or even a subset larger than a choice few who benefit from the systemic patriarchal tendencies in unfair however. The core issue is equality. And society isn't equal. This is more of an effect than a primary problem.
Nursie 13y ago
I don't think this applies to anywhere near the number of men the stereotype would apply it to. I've worked in very successful mixed teams in a variety of companies. What's more I think the stereotype is harmful in itself. It provides an excuse for some men to act like assholes and it affects the perception of the rest by the outside world. I have also seen misogyny and incredibly awful behaviour in the workplace. This was invariably carried out by men who thought they were good at what they did but were sadly mistaken.
- tinha 13y ago
  I agree with you, as someone that heard from a colleague "to go to the kitchen and do the dishes", instead of helping him with the problem he was facing. I was his superior at the time.
Pxtl 13y ago
We could make that argument a decade ago. A decade ago, geeks were just weird, and prone to incompetent and awkward social advances that could scare a young lady. A group that's incapable of making her feel comfortable. And in a sense, you can't really blame them much for that. Social clumsiness and normal loneliness and desire aren't exactly crimes. But what the author describes isn't like that. He described an actively hostile and misogynistic classroom. Maybe I missed it (and I could've missed it since I'm a dude), but the modern culture of full-out misogyny that's infected young programmers wasn't present when I was a student, and it scares the willies out of me.
- pbhjpbhj 13y ago
  >* He described an actively hostile and misogynistic classroom.* // It may be misogyny but my experience of groups of youths makes me feel it's "just" verbal abuse. She's not being targeted because she's a girl she's being targeted because [almost] everyone is. High-schoolers pick on others because those others have traits that make them stand out. There's probably a kid in the same class being picked on because he's short, another because he's stupid, another because he's poor. So, this one is being picked on because she's a girl - that's what stands out most about her against the common traits of the group. Is that really misogyny is it disproportionate because she's a girl. In some ways that the only thing that they latched on to was her gender is positive - hear me out on this one - that suggests that she's good looking, she's not poor, not fat, not spotty, not known amongst the students for moral deficiency. In fact I feel it's basically a confession that they've got nothing else to pick on her for. If the worst she got was a well recycled joke it sounds like she was probably having an easier time of it than most kids in the classroom, no. None of that is to say nothing should be done about someone feeling the environment they're in isn't conducive to education of course. It just strikes me that sexism isn't the root problem - if instead she was picked on for being a swot [that's perhaps UK-ism, a conscientious and attentive student with a hint of toadying] would that have been better somehow?
alukima 13y ago
I just went through several interviews before accepting a position. At various companies the following was said to/asked of me. "Why should I take on the liability of adding a women to my engineering team?" "I've never had a women answer any hard math questions correctly so we can skip those." It was great when I insisted we walk through them together, he got one completely wrong and couldn't remember the basics. "I normally delete any resumes from women applying for engineering positions without actually reading them." =recruiter who didn't know I was within earshot. I assume he was forced to bring me in by HR. Which is yet another annoyance. I don't accept token female positions. See below. "I need a women on the engineering team so the guys don't have to deal with the women in marketing." - actual job offer. "Do you plan on having children?" I recently left a job, because I couldn't get my other team members to stop leaving commit messages like "fuck heroku in it's whore ass', 'fucking cunts'. The hilarious part is that my background is in porn, I wasn't offended, I just couldn't figure out what the fuck they were committing. When I asked them to write more descriptive messages they said I was too sensitive. The guy who took over for me constantly emails me and asks if I remember when x was done.... I'm very active in my local tech community and I spend my free time teaching, so I know that 99% of guys in tech are not like this. (at least on purpose) But the attitude is accepted and even defended, which is obvious just reading the comments on any article involving women in tech on HN. But, it doesn't happen to them so how are they to know that I hear the 'hilarious' Tits or GTFO joke hundreds of times. The only reason I've started to become vocal about it is because I hope that it gives someone a little insight into what we have to deal with. I'm not at all a SJW and hate the concept of check your privilege. I think SJW are actually making women in tech look like weak victims.
kunil 13y ago
I don't want to sound sexist but could be, just could be, is it possible that women are not as capable as when it comes to programming. waits for flames I was a student assistant. I gave lab courses (lots of different types, cs 101, ai, graphics etc) and there wasn't a single girl that can actually do good. Sure there was some who can memorize a whole textbook and get A in grades thanks to exams but that was it. They were at best average for my case. And In my school, girl ratio is not that bad either. Even when I was a student, there was a single girl that applied and graduated as same year as males, all other females failed and prolonged their schools. I am sure most of you met exceptional woman programmers, I am not denying that there might be exceptions. But from my personal experience women is not as capable as men in tech. That is pretty much my reasoning why there are so low interest in tech related courses/jobs for women
- lutusp 13y ago
  > I don't want to sound sexist but could be, just could be, is it possible that women are not as capable as when it comes to programming. It's a flawed argument. In a group of male programmers, fully half of them are below average (yes, I'm sure). Should the less accomplished 50% be subject to ridicule as intellectually inferior? No, they should be given equality of opportunity, and let the cards fall there they may. All women want is the same equality of opportunity that every male programmer gets without question. > But from my personal experience women is not as capable as men in tech. I'm sure you've heard of "confirmation bias", but, in case you haven't: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias Quote: "... a tendency of people to favor information that confirms their beliefs or hypotheses."
  - kunil 13y ago
    >In a group of male programmers As I said, male-female ratio is not that bad. Maybe 25% of total class? I am not sure about the numbers though. I am not trying to ridicule people, It is just some facts I encountered before. "confirmation bias" It is not like I can be biased now, because there is no longer a data set for me. There is like 2-3 women (out of ~50) in the department I am working and they are not directly related to my area, weird huh?

nilved 13y ago

Was there ever any doubt that the problem lies with men?

skylan_q 13y ago
Was there ever any doubt that the problem lies with men? Not for the last 80 years.
drdaeman 13y ago
Yes. Those classmates didn't invent that sandwich stereotypes on their own, they got it from the environment. I think the problem is not with men or women in particular, but society in general, as it has a concept that genders are socially different while they're [mostly] not. I strongly suspect, neither men, nor women are prerogative carriers of such stereotypes - although, naturally, as those stereotypes are discriminating to women, they're primarily opposed by them, not men.

smoyer 13y ago

Hmmm ... with that theory you'd also have to explain the odd concentration of socially inept males in tech. Why are they pooling there? Is it a "low spot" where gravity leaves a puddle? (street cred based on brain-cells instead of muscle and the ability to completely avoid physical interaction sure sounds like a win to a severe introvert).

untog 13y ago
Why are they pooling there? Is it a "low spot" where gravity leaves a puddle? Kind of, yes. Programming is a decidedly anti-social job in many ways, and suits the socially inept. That's not all a negative thing- it's possible to be successful through your skills alone, and few other jobs provide that path.
- zalambar 13y ago
  Unless you are a minority in the field in which case your success apparently requires tolerating disproportionate abuse from your socially inept peers. Hardly the meritocratic environment we like to imagine here.

tokenizer 13y ago

But that seems impossible. Most men I know that program have general social problems, not just relating to women. The field itself is of interest to the slightly colder, and more rational mindset. I'm not saying we can't fix this problem. We can do that by hiring more well rounded people for programming positions. The same type of male techie who would mistreat a woman at the workplace, would mistreat a man too. I don't necessarily think being odd is wrong as long as you're not hurting someone. Personally it's the tech industries fault in general, which continues to pander to the academic and elitist groupings to foster talent, which is in and of itself unequal. Add to the fact that these groupings contain their own patriarchal problems and the picture becomes even more complex. Personally I don't feel like we need 50% women in the tech industry. I feel like everyone should be given an equal chance at learning as many skills as possible in a fostering learning environment. The fact that schools, parents, etc don't accomplish this can't all be blamed on the industry itself. Many engineering subjects suffer from these larger societal problems that relate with entrenched social roles and patriarchal institutions. Making the average Joe reading hacker news aware of these problems are important, but laying the blame on all men, or even a subset larger than a choice few who benefit from the systemic patriarchal tendencies in unfair however. The core issue is equality. And society isn't equal. This is more of an effect than a primary problem.

Nursie 13y ago

I don't think this applies to anywhere near the number of men the stereotype would apply it to. I've worked in very successful mixed teams in a variety of companies. What's more I think the stereotype is harmful in itself. It provides an excuse for some men to act like assholes and it affects the perception of the rest by the outside world. I have also seen misogyny and incredibly awful behaviour in the workplace. This was invariably carried out by men who thought they were good at what they did but were sadly mistaken.

tinha 13y ago
I agree with you, as someone that heard from a colleague "to go to the kitchen and do the dishes", instead of helping him with the problem he was facing. I was his superior at the time.

Pxtl 13y ago

We could make that argument a decade ago. A decade ago, geeks were just weird, and prone to incompetent and awkward social advances that could scare a young lady. A group that's incapable of making her feel comfortable. And in a sense, you can't really blame them much for that. Social clumsiness and normal loneliness and desire aren't exactly crimes. But what the author describes isn't like that. He described an actively hostile and misogynistic classroom. Maybe I missed it (and I could've missed it since I'm a dude), but the modern culture of full-out misogyny that's infected young programmers wasn't present when I was a student, and it scares the willies out of me.

pbhjpbhj 13y ago
>* He described an actively hostile and misogynistic classroom.* // It may be misogyny but my experience of groups of youths makes me feel it's "just" verbal abuse. She's not being targeted because she's a girl she's being targeted because [almost] everyone is. High-schoolers pick on others because those others have traits that make them stand out. There's probably a kid in the same class being picked on because he's short, another because he's stupid, another because he's poor. So, this one is being picked on because she's a girl - that's what stands out most about her against the common traits of the group. Is that really misogyny is it disproportionate because she's a girl. In some ways that the only thing that they latched on to was her gender is positive - hear me out on this one - that suggests that she's good looking, she's not poor, not fat, not spotty, not known amongst the students for moral deficiency. In fact I feel it's basically a confession that they've got nothing else to pick on her for. If the worst she got was a well recycled joke it sounds like she was probably having an easier time of it than most kids in the classroom, no. None of that is to say nothing should be done about someone feeling the environment they're in isn't conducive to education of course. It just strikes me that sexism isn't the root problem - if instead she was picked on for being a swot [that's perhaps UK-ism, a conscientious and attentive student with a hint of toadying] would that have been better somehow?

alukima 13y ago

I just went through several interviews before accepting a position. At various companies the following was said to/asked of me. "Why should I take on the liability of adding a women to my engineering team?" "I've never had a women answer any hard math questions correctly so we can skip those." It was great when I insisted we walk through them together, he got one completely wrong and couldn't remember the basics. "I normally delete any resumes from women applying for engineering positions without actually reading them." =recruiter who didn't know I was within earshot. I assume he was forced to bring me in by HR. Which is yet another annoyance. I don't accept token female positions. See below. "I need a women on the engineering team so the guys don't have to deal with the women in marketing." - actual job offer. "Do you plan on having children?" I recently left a job, because I couldn't get my other team members to stop leaving commit messages like "fuck heroku in it's whore ass', 'fucking cunts'. The hilarious part is that my background is in porn, I wasn't offended, I just couldn't figure out what the fuck they were committing. When I asked them to write more descriptive messages they said I was too sensitive. The guy who took over for me constantly emails me and asks if I remember when x was done.... I'm very active in my local tech community and I spend my free time teaching, so I know that 99% of guys in tech are not like this. (at least on purpose) But the attitude is accepted and even defended, which is obvious just reading the comments on any article involving women in tech on HN. But, it doesn't happen to them so how are they to know that I hear the 'hilarious' Tits or GTFO joke hundreds of times. The only reason I've started to become vocal about it is because I hope that it gives someone a little insight into what we have to deal with. I'm not at all a SJW and hate the concept of check your privilege. I think SJW are actually making women in tech look like weak victims.

kunil 13y ago

I don't want to sound sexist but could be, just could be, is it possible that women are not as capable as when it comes to programming. waits for flames I was a student assistant. I gave lab courses (lots of different types, cs 101, ai, graphics etc) and there wasn't a single girl that can actually do good. Sure there was some who can memorize a whole textbook and get A in grades thanks to exams but that was it. They were at best average for my case. And In my school, girl ratio is not that bad either. Even when I was a student, there was a single girl that applied and graduated as same year as males, all other females failed and prolonged their schools. I am sure most of you met exceptional woman programmers, I am not denying that there might be exceptions. But from my personal experience women is not as capable as men in tech. That is pretty much my reasoning why there are so low interest in tech related courses/jobs for women

lutusp 13y ago
> I don't want to sound sexist but could be, just could be, is it possible that women are not as capable as when it comes to programming. It's a flawed argument. In a group of male programmers, fully half of them are below average (yes, I'm sure). Should the less accomplished 50% be subject to ridicule as intellectually inferior? No, they should be given equality of opportunity, and let the cards fall there they may. All women want is the same equality of opportunity that every male programmer gets without question. > But from my personal experience women is not as capable as men in tech. I'm sure you've heard of "confirmation bias", but, in case you haven't: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias Quote: "... a tendency of people to favor information that confirms their beliefs or hypotheses."
- kunil 13y ago
  >In a group of male programmers As I said, male-female ratio is not that bad. Maybe 25% of total class? I am not sure about the numbers though. I am not trying to ridicule people, It is just some facts I encountered before. "confirmation bias" It is not like I can be biased now, because there is no longer a data set for me. There is like 2-3 women (out of ~50) in the department I am working and they are not directly related to my area, weird huh?