7 ms·

The problem is that we all have so much to lose and it makes this so easy for the government. I have a wife, I own a home, I need my job to keep these things an

The problem is that we all have so much to lose and it makes this so easy for the government. I have a wife, I own a home, I need my job to keep these things and many people will do anything to keep their job and these things. If you're a founder and your options are give the government what they want to no pushback from your userbasr, or to not give the data and face harassment, audits, suspicious legal problems and things like that. Even as a pretty moral guy I have a hard time imagining putting my livelihood on the line for the very little reward if the alternative is possibly losing my home. The government knows how 95% of us NEED to work and keep an income going so they know they can do whatever they want because the leverage is 100% on their side. The only way I see this changing is if people on the Internet/citizens of our country start caring that the NSA is spying on all of us and realize that this harm is way worse than a plane crashing into a building, as horrible as that was.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
GVIrish 13y ago
That is exactly how criminal bullying succeeds whether it is organized crime moving into a neighborhood, or an authoritarian government rising to power. There are plenty of people along the way who can put their foot down and say "NO" but all they have to do is threaten them and many people say, "I'd rather not get involved," or, "It's not my problem." But every person who turns a blind eye, emboldens the despot, bully, or mob boss. Not saying every little 4-man start up should take the nuclear option when facing the NSA. But there are certainly many companies with clout who could easily turn the tide in public opinion against the rapidly expanding surveillance state. If Google or Yahoo or another big player stook a stand I think it could start to turn the tide. I just feeli like if Ladar Levison can take a stand, I'd like to think there are others who believe strongly enough in what America stands for to do the same. America is worth it.
unclebucknasty 13y ago
Here's what really stood out about your post: you are writing it earnestly--as in expressing a genuine fear on your part. And many who read it (like myself), will likely find your concerns to be at least somewhat reasonable. So, what does it say about how far we've come that we are so afraid of speaking out when we believe that our government is wrong? And it's not just wrong, it's among the worst wrongs a government can commit: violating the rights of the citizenry it is sworn to protect.
yafujifide 13y ago
It sounds like you've gone all-in with the US government, and now you can't criticise it without risking everything. It is possible to internationalize yourself and your assets in such a way that no one government can threaten you with taking everything away. I suggest taking a look at these internationalization resources: http://www.internationalman.com/ http://www.internationalman.com/ http://www.sovereignman.com/ http://www.sovereignman.com/ http://nomadcapitalist.com/ http://nomadcapitalist.com/ Once you internationalize yourself, your fear of government will be substantially reduced and you can be free to take a stand.
- dobbsbob 13y ago
  Unless you're living off bitcoins there is no such thing as protected offshore savings. They bribe low level workers to leak supposedly secret info and you wind up in jail. Remember the leaked bvi docs? Swiss and Liechtenstein dvds full of depositor info? Almost every country bends over to sign tax treaties with the US. Swiss numbered accounts are meaningless since the war on terrorderp. They (gov thugs) also specialize in blackmail, your finances aren't their only target
  - mahyarm 13y ago
    I don't think you'll be hiding assets, but putting it in another country so you don't get caught by surprise that something like Argentina's capital controls that happened nearly overnight.
  - yafujifide 13y ago
    I am living off bitcoins.
    - samstave 13y ago
      How?
      - yafujifide 13y ago
        Mostly by converting them to dollars when I need.
Amadou 13y ago
If you feel you can not take the risks yourself, there still are things you can do. 1) Skip the vacation this year, give every spare dime you've got to the EFF and the ACLU. Push to have your company make charitable donations to those organizations too. Think of it as outsourcing the fix. 2) Talk about it as much as you can to as many people as you can - be unabashed and vocal in your support of people who do take the risks that come with fighting back. The worst thing you can do is nothing.
- protomyth 13y ago
  The EFF's focus is too broad and I haven't seen them go after an election. We need an no-compromise organization with one focus that scares the hell out of a politician on election day. Like them or hate them, the NRA should be our template.
  - Amadou 13y ago
    Don't let the fact that such an organization does not exist stop you from supporting the EFF today. The enemy of the good is the perfect.
    - protomyth 13y ago
      Given adammil's comment, they cannot currently do effective election lobbying.
  - wehadfun 13y ago
    +1 "the NRA should be our template"
  - schoen 13y ago
    EFF is a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization and is not allowed to endorse or oppose political candidates. (I work there.)
    - protomyth 13y ago
      Then they are definitely not the answer to what we need. Sadly, fear drives elections and tech doesn't scare anyone.
devx 13y ago
I don't want to start a left vs right debate, but just imagine how much harder this would be if say half of the adult population was employed by the government. That's why the communist countries tended to be some of the most totalitarian and oppressed, and perhaps more importantly - the longest lasting. People don't want to speak against the government especially when they're working for it, and there are not many job alternatives around. In the end, the revolutions happened when the economy was doing very poorly, and people had nothing to eat, so they didn't have much to lose. Hopefully, Americans are smarter than to wait until that happens, and should revolt, or at least protest before most of the damage has already been done, and you have "nothing to lose".
- api 13y ago
  There's a left handed sock puppet and a right handed sock puppet. There's one puppeteer: the military-industrial-intelligence-academic complex and its vast revolving door apparatus. It's ultimately about power, oligarchy, control, and big big money... taxpayer money and access to it.
  - swombat 13y ago
    > the military-industrial-intelligence-academic complex It's a huge conspiracy! So huge that everyone is in on it... except for you!!!
    - api 13y ago
      It's not a conspiracy in the closed-door pre-planned sense. It's a power network, an oligarchy, an "old boy network" in the classical sense. I never said the word conspiracy, did I? Labeling any criticism of power "conspiracy theory" is a straw man tactic for discouraging real discussion.
- vidarh 13y ago
  > I don't want to start a left vs right debate, but just imagine how much harder this would be if say half of the adult population was employed by the government. That's why the communist countries tended to be some of the most totalitarian and oppressed, and perhaps more importantly - the longest lasting. That's nonsense. In these countries whether or not you were employed by the government had exactly 0 influence on how dangerous it was for you to speak out against the government. Meanwhile, in many European countries, 1/3 or more of the population works directly or indirectly for the government, yet you won't find many that are the slightest afraid of speaking out against the government - in fact in many of them you have a steady stream of government employed people who are actively involved in political opposition to whichever party is currently in power.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
jmharvey 13y ago
> The problem is that we all have so much to lose The Silicon Valley mythology is largely based around the idea of founders/early employees who do what they do because they have nothing to lose. I don't know whether that was ever actually true, but you're right: we all have a lot to lose now, and that affects how we act. Not just in terms of standing up to the government, but every time we face a risky decision. Any thoughts on what we can do to make up for that?
- JonFish85 13y ago
  Vote. Vote, and volunteer for the politicians who will do right by you. Convince others to vote for said politician. If you can, donate to their campaigns. You can ratchet it up even more. Move your 401k money into funds that invest in very specific companies, companies who align with your morals. Convince your friends and family to do the same. Get involved in your local community and government to raise awareness of what you consider evil. It's really not terribly hard to get started, if you feel so strongly about these issues to call them "evil".
honzzz 13y ago
I understand. You have so much to lose if you do something. But here is what you can lose if you do nothing. I was born and grew up in communist Czechoslovakia. We lived close to Austria but obviously we could not go there until after the revolution. But after the Iron Curtain fell I went to Vienna with one of my brothers and my parents. To this day I remember the shock after we returned back from that short visit - everything just looked grey... grey buildings, grey people, everything looked dead and falling apart... one of the most depressing moments of my life. The problem with authoritarian state is not that it is easy to personally get into trouble. The real problem is that the fear spreads and kills those fragile things needed to move the society forward - communication, cooperation, creativity. Incentives that drive people are perverted. In every society there are people who are pathological, cold, selfish, hypocritical, cowardly. Authoritarian states are wired in such way that it's favourable to those people - they get to the top and gain control over the society. Yes, it takes years, even decades. But so many lives are ruined in the process... and at the end the society is just broken beyond repair, you cannot trust even your closest relatives and everything starts to fall apart (and I mean that - at the end of the regime many buildings were not repaired for decades and they literally started to fall apart and sometimes you could not get hands on even the most basic stuff like toilet paper). And don't forget... living in fear is going to cost you. Even when you are careful and you never do anything that would put you on their radar it still affects your life deeply... somehow it kills human spirit. You step back a little, start thinking about what you can or cannot say, you rationalize it... and pretty soon you don't even know who you really are any more. I remember Pavel Kohout (Czech writer and disident) talking about some of his colleagues, other writers, talented and promising... who compromised, changed their books out of fear... and never wrote anything decent again. Creativity needs freedom. I also remember that after the revolution I went to some movie festival and there were some women - political prisoners talking about their experiences. Most of them were really old ladies and some of them spent more than twenty years in prison just for saying what they wanted to say. Some of them were tortured. But they were incredible, not bitter at all, without hate or vindictiveness, so strong, vital, they were even joking about it (really black humour) with charisma just squirting out of them. They decided to live their lives on their terms, not defeated by fear. They paid horrible price for that... and each of them said they feel it was worth it, they do not regret anything and that they are happy in life. To be really happy, you need to be happy with yourself. And when you live in fear you kill that... each time you do something that's not really yours and is motivated by fear you kill little part or yourself. I am not judging. I totally understand that many people rather give up their freedom of expression or even collaborate with the regime so the regime would not ruin their or their children's future. I would probably give up under pressure. I am just talking about stuff that people from countries which have not experienced authoritarian regime yet might not realize.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

GVIrish 13y ago

That is exactly how criminal bullying succeeds whether it is organized crime moving into a neighborhood, or an authoritarian government rising to power. There are plenty of people along the way who can put their foot down and say "NO" but all they have to do is threaten them and many people say, "I'd rather not get involved," or, "It's not my problem." But every person who turns a blind eye, emboldens the despot, bully, or mob boss. Not saying every little 4-man start up should take the nuclear option when facing the NSA. But there are certainly many companies with clout who could easily turn the tide in public opinion against the rapidly expanding surveillance state. If Google or Yahoo or another big player stook a stand I think it could start to turn the tide. I just feeli like if Ladar Levison can take a stand, I'd like to think there are others who believe strongly enough in what America stands for to do the same. America is worth it.

unclebucknasty 13y ago

Here's what really stood out about your post: you are writing it earnestly--as in expressing a genuine fear on your part. And many who read it (like myself), will likely find your concerns to be at least somewhat reasonable. So, what does it say about how far we've come that we are so afraid of speaking out when we believe that our government is wrong? And it's not just wrong, it's among the worst wrongs a government can commit: violating the rights of the citizenry it is sworn to protect.

yafujifide 13y ago

It sounds like you've gone all-in with the US government, and now you can't criticise it without risking everything. It is possible to internationalize yourself and your assets in such a way that no one government can threaten you with taking everything away. I suggest taking a look at these internationalization resources: http://www.internationalman.com/ http://www.internationalman.com/ http://www.sovereignman.com/ http://www.sovereignman.com/ http://nomadcapitalist.com/ http://nomadcapitalist.com/ Once you internationalize yourself, your fear of government will be substantially reduced and you can be free to take a stand.

dobbsbob 13y ago
Unless you're living off bitcoins there is no such thing as protected offshore savings. They bribe low level workers to leak supposedly secret info and you wind up in jail. Remember the leaked bvi docs? Swiss and Liechtenstein dvds full of depositor info? Almost every country bends over to sign tax treaties with the US. Swiss numbered accounts are meaningless since the war on terrorderp. They (gov thugs) also specialize in blackmail, your finances aren't their only target
- mahyarm 13y ago
  I don't think you'll be hiding assets, but putting it in another country so you don't get caught by surprise that something like Argentina's capital controls that happened nearly overnight.
- yafujifide 13y ago
  I am living off bitcoins.
  - samstave 13y ago
    How?
    - yafujifide 13y ago
      Mostly by converting them to dollars when I need.

Amadou 13y ago

If you feel you can not take the risks yourself, there still are things you can do. 1) Skip the vacation this year, give every spare dime you've got to the EFF and the ACLU. Push to have your company make charitable donations to those organizations too. Think of it as outsourcing the fix. 2) Talk about it as much as you can to as many people as you can - be unabashed and vocal in your support of people who do take the risks that come with fighting back. The worst thing you can do is nothing.

protomyth 13y ago
The EFF's focus is too broad and I haven't seen them go after an election. We need an no-compromise organization with one focus that scares the hell out of a politician on election day. Like them or hate them, the NRA should be our template.
- Amadou 13y ago
  Don't let the fact that such an organization does not exist stop you from supporting the EFF today. The enemy of the good is the perfect.
  - protomyth 13y ago
    Given adammil's comment, they cannot currently do effective election lobbying.
- wehadfun 13y ago
  +1 "the NRA should be our template"
- schoen 13y ago
  EFF is a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization and is not allowed to endorse or oppose political candidates. (I work there.)
  - protomyth 13y ago
    Then they are definitely not the answer to what we need. Sadly, fear drives elections and tech doesn't scare anyone.

devx 13y ago

I don't want to start a left vs right debate, but just imagine how much harder this would be if say half of the adult population was employed by the government. That's why the communist countries tended to be some of the most totalitarian and oppressed, and perhaps more importantly - the longest lasting. People don't want to speak against the government especially when they're working for it, and there are not many job alternatives around. In the end, the revolutions happened when the economy was doing very poorly, and people had nothing to eat, so they didn't have much to lose. Hopefully, Americans are smarter than to wait until that happens, and should revolt, or at least protest before most of the damage has already been done, and you have "nothing to lose".

api 13y ago
There's a left handed sock puppet and a right handed sock puppet. There's one puppeteer: the military-industrial-intelligence-academic complex and its vast revolving door apparatus. It's ultimately about power, oligarchy, control, and big big money... taxpayer money and access to it.
- swombat 13y ago
  > the military-industrial-intelligence-academic complex It's a huge conspiracy! So huge that everyone is in on it... except for you!!!
  - api 13y ago
    It's not a conspiracy in the closed-door pre-planned sense. It's a power network, an oligarchy, an "old boy network" in the classical sense. I never said the word conspiracy, did I? Labeling any criticism of power "conspiracy theory" is a straw man tactic for discouraging real discussion.
vidarh 13y ago
> I don't want to start a left vs right debate, but just imagine how much harder this would be if say half of the adult population was employed by the government. That's why the communist countries tended to be some of the most totalitarian and oppressed, and perhaps more importantly - the longest lasting. That's nonsense. In these countries whether or not you were employed by the government had exactly 0 influence on how dangerous it was for you to speak out against the government. Meanwhile, in many European countries, 1/3 or more of the population works directly or indirectly for the government, yet you won't find many that are the slightest afraid of speaking out against the government - in fact in many of them you have a steady stream of government employed people who are actively involved in political opposition to whichever party is currently in power.

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

jmharvey 13y ago

> The problem is that we all have so much to lose The Silicon Valley mythology is largely based around the idea of founders/early employees who do what they do because they have nothing to lose. I don't know whether that was ever actually true, but you're right: we all have a lot to lose now, and that affects how we act. Not just in terms of standing up to the government, but every time we face a risky decision. Any thoughts on what we can do to make up for that?

JonFish85 13y ago
Vote. Vote, and volunteer for the politicians who will do right by you. Convince others to vote for said politician. If you can, donate to their campaigns. You can ratchet it up even more. Move your 401k money into funds that invest in very specific companies, companies who align with your morals. Convince your friends and family to do the same. Get involved in your local community and government to raise awareness of what you consider evil. It's really not terribly hard to get started, if you feel so strongly about these issues to call them "evil".

honzzz 13y ago

I understand. You have so much to lose if you do something. But here is what you can lose if you do nothing. I was born and grew up in communist Czechoslovakia. We lived close to Austria but obviously we could not go there until after the revolution. But after the Iron Curtain fell I went to Vienna with one of my brothers and my parents. To this day I remember the shock after we returned back from that short visit - everything just looked grey... grey buildings, grey people, everything looked dead and falling apart... one of the most depressing moments of my life. The problem with authoritarian state is not that it is easy to personally get into trouble. The real problem is that the fear spreads and kills those fragile things needed to move the society forward - communication, cooperation, creativity. Incentives that drive people are perverted. In every society there are people who are pathological, cold, selfish, hypocritical, cowardly. Authoritarian states are wired in such way that it's favourable to those people - they get to the top and gain control over the society. Yes, it takes years, even decades. But so many lives are ruined in the process... and at the end the society is just broken beyond repair, you cannot trust even your closest relatives and everything starts to fall apart (and I mean that - at the end of the regime many buildings were not repaired for decades and they literally started to fall apart and sometimes you could not get hands on even the most basic stuff like toilet paper). And don't forget... living in fear is going to cost you. Even when you are careful and you never do anything that would put you on their radar it still affects your life deeply... somehow it kills human spirit. You step back a little, start thinking about what you can or cannot say, you rationalize it... and pretty soon you don't even know who you really are any more. I remember Pavel Kohout (Czech writer and disident) talking about some of his colleagues, other writers, talented and promising... who compromised, changed their books out of fear... and never wrote anything decent again. Creativity needs freedom. I also remember that after the revolution I went to some movie festival and there were some women - political prisoners talking about their experiences. Most of them were really old ladies and some of them spent more than twenty years in prison just for saying what they wanted to say. Some of them were tortured. But they were incredible, not bitter at all, without hate or vindictiveness, so strong, vital, they were even joking about it (really black humour) with charisma just squirting out of them. They decided to live their lives on their terms, not defeated by fear. They paid horrible price for that... and each of them said they feel it was worth it, they do not regret anything and that they are happy in life. To be really happy, you need to be happy with yourself. And when you live in fear you kill that... each time you do something that's not really yours and is motivated by fear you kill little part or yourself. I am not judging. I totally understand that many people rather give up their freedom of expression or even collaborate with the regime so the regime would not ruin their or their children's future. I would probably give up under pressure. I am just talking about stuff that people from countries which have not experienced authoritarian regime yet might not realize.