11 ms·

And so it slowly begins, the alienation of Zed Shaw from the Python community.

simplegeek 17y ago
For some reason, I cannot infer the same after reading that article. Probably, I'm low on caffeine. What sequence of events do you visualize in near future? They will deny and he will walk away? I guess this time the whole ball game is different. Zed has placed himself in a different situation now :)
- gnufied 17y ago
  Pythonists will turn up their nose when they will see Zed walking down the same street. He won't be invited to dinner. People will hide their babies when he shows up. This is just the beginning.
timr 17y ago
Who is alienating whom? It sure sounds like Zed is offering to do something that he doesn't have to do, that could potentially be more work for him to maintain, and that could easily lead to a lot more political trouble in the long run. The way I see it, Zed made a (correct and polite) criticism of Python. Someone childishly taunted back at his criticism with the typical "where's the patch?" defensiveness, and he's now responding in a rather polite fashion. If Zed is making a mistake, it's that he's engaging in the debate at all. He's expressed his opinion -- if the Python people are so petty that they can't handle constructive criticism, the best response is to ignore them and move on.
- deleted 17y ago
  [deleted]
- radu_floricica 17y ago
  "Polite" is a bit too strong here. "Civil" is closer.
- diN0bot 17y ago
  "Zed is offering" yeah, right. he's a talker.
  - cubicle67 17y ago
    Sure he's a talker, but he has a long history of putting his (usually excellent) code where his mouth is.
    - jshen 17y ago
      I would hesitate to call his code "excellent". How about chunked encoding for mongrel? Here (http://www.ruby-forum.com/topic/142852 http://www.ruby-forum.com/topic/142852) is his naive rant about it, but it turns out that there are real reasons for CE. I would describe his code as a ghetto.
      - jrockway 17y ago
        And where are your patches?
        jshen 17y ago
        I haven't bragged about how great I am while releasing software that fails to implements parts of the spec.
srnm 17y ago
He seems to be trying to become a "center of gravity" in python-land by being controversial. Why not just work with the community in a productive non-confrontational way? Lots of opportunity for pop-psychology here... but best to let it pass...
- grandalf 17y ago
  Hah, yeah I think I'd be more impressed if Zed had actually submitted some patches and had them refused. Why did this blog post have to happen now, before Zed was actually wronged?
  - PieSquared 17y ago
    Because Zed is saying, "I'll write these patches if..." It seems to me he's justified in not wanting to waste his time writing patches that wouldn't be accepted anyways.
    - grandalf 17y ago
      Uh, what if every would-be open source contributor wrote a grandstanding blog post promising only to submit patches if the maintainer(s) publicly eat crow for an offhand remark they made ... :) Zed is a gifted hacker of software systems, but I don't really think he's all that good dealing with other mammals.
      - FooBarWidget 17y ago
        I met Zed in real life. I can assure you that he's really good at dealing with people offline.
        SteveC 17y ago
        That sounded somewhat sinister.
        grandalf 17y ago
        I'm sure he's a nice guy -- he actually seems like the kind of person I'd be friends with -- I just think it's appropriate to sort of call him out on the grandiose blog posts :) I'm all for it to the extent that Zed is building his personal brand and (in essence) being a self-promoter. If he really feels self-righteous about it, then that's a bit worrisome. Zed vs Guido is exactly the sort of David vs Goliath story that makes for entertaining reading...
iamelgringo 17y ago
I don't think that Zed got the joke. Jesse gave a lightning talk at PyCon this past year, blowing off some steam about the people that complain about Python on Slashdot/Reddit/Hacker News without submitting a patch. The video is here if you're interested. It's actually kinda funny: http://pycon.blip.tv/file/1931026/ http://pycon.blip.tv/file/1931026/ He suggested a new Python license that would forbid people complaining about the language without first submitting a patch. If people did this they would be "Van Lindberged". Van Lindberg is the Python software foundation's lawyer. Jesse proceeded to showcase the "Van Lindberg engine." It was a javscript bookmarklet that took a comments page on reddit that complaining about python, and superimposed pictures of Van Lindberg all over it. The reddit page had then been "Van Lindberged" or "Lindbergified". It didn't sound like Guido was trying to start shiznit with Zed. It sounded like he was making light of the situation, and suggesting that Jesse "Van Lindberg" Zed for his comments.
- nailer 17y ago
  Zed was at PyCon, and probably got the joke. Van Lindberging is funny because it's an extreme response to what some devs see as a real problem, opinions without patches. Zed's pointing out he does in fact have patches, and can have more patches if they're likely to be accepted.
  - jnoller 17y ago
    He has no patches. I see nothing on python-dev, bugs.python.org, etc. All I see is someone saying "I have code which is the balls, awesome". That's it.
    - GrandMasterBirt 17y ago
      I love it! Petty bickering is going to ultimately hurt everyone using python... a) Either you won't get good quality code because Zed may be right. or b) You will get Zed's python branch because he/others got pissed off enough and the python community will be split into two. I say B is a good solution. Eventually python-fusion will come out. :) Edit: Let the war begin!
rbanffy 17y ago
"slowly"?!

For some reason, I cannot infer the same after reading that article. Probably, I'm low on caffeine. What sequence of events do you visualize in near future? They will deny and he will walk away? I guess this time the whole ball game is different. Zed has placed himself in a different situation now :)

gnufied 17y ago
Pythonists will turn up their nose when they will see Zed walking down the same street. He won't be invited to dinner. People will hide their babies when he shows up. This is just the beginning.

timr 17y ago

Who is alienating whom? It sure sounds like Zed is offering to do something that he doesn't have to do, that could potentially be more work for him to maintain, and that could easily lead to a lot more political trouble in the long run. The way I see it, Zed made a (correct and polite) criticism of Python. Someone childishly taunted back at his criticism with the typical "where's the patch?" defensiveness, and he's now responding in a rather polite fashion. If Zed is making a mistake, it's that he's engaging in the debate at all. He's expressed his opinion -- if the Python people are so petty that they can't handle constructive criticism, the best response is to ignore them and move on.

deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
radu_floricica 17y ago
"Polite" is a bit too strong here. "Civil" is closer.
diN0bot 17y ago
"Zed is offering" yeah, right. he's a talker.
- cubicle67 17y ago
  Sure he's a talker, but he has a long history of putting his (usually excellent) code where his mouth is.
  - jshen 17y ago
    I would hesitate to call his code "excellent". How about chunked encoding for mongrel? Here (http://www.ruby-forum.com/topic/142852 http://www.ruby-forum.com/topic/142852) is his naive rant about it, but it turns out that there are real reasons for CE. I would describe his code as a ghetto.
    - jrockway 17y ago
      And where are your patches?
      - jshen 17y ago
        I haven't bragged about how great I am while releasing software that fails to implements parts of the spec.

srnm 17y ago

He seems to be trying to become a "center of gravity" in python-land by being controversial. Why not just work with the community in a productive non-confrontational way? Lots of opportunity for pop-psychology here... but best to let it pass...

grandalf 17y ago
Hah, yeah I think I'd be more impressed if Zed had actually submitted some patches and had them refused. Why did this blog post have to happen now, before Zed was actually wronged?
- PieSquared 17y ago
  Because Zed is saying, "I'll write these patches if..." It seems to me he's justified in not wanting to waste his time writing patches that wouldn't be accepted anyways.
  - grandalf 17y ago
    Uh, what if every would-be open source contributor wrote a grandstanding blog post promising only to submit patches if the maintainer(s) publicly eat crow for an offhand remark they made ... :) Zed is a gifted hacker of software systems, but I don't really think he's all that good dealing with other mammals.
    - FooBarWidget 17y ago
      I met Zed in real life. I can assure you that he's really good at dealing with people offline.
      - SteveC 17y ago
        That sounded somewhat sinister.
      - grandalf 17y ago
        I'm sure he's a nice guy -- he actually seems like the kind of person I'd be friends with -- I just think it's appropriate to sort of call him out on the grandiose blog posts :) I'm all for it to the extent that Zed is building his personal brand and (in essence) being a self-promoter. If he really feels self-righteous about it, then that's a bit worrisome. Zed vs Guido is exactly the sort of David vs Goliath story that makes for entertaining reading...

iamelgringo 17y ago

I don't think that Zed got the joke. Jesse gave a lightning talk at PyCon this past year, blowing off some steam about the people that complain about Python on Slashdot/Reddit/Hacker News without submitting a patch. The video is here if you're interested. It's actually kinda funny: http://pycon.blip.tv/file/1931026/ http://pycon.blip.tv/file/1931026/ He suggested a new Python license that would forbid people complaining about the language without first submitting a patch. If people did this they would be "Van Lindberged". Van Lindberg is the Python software foundation's lawyer. Jesse proceeded to showcase the "Van Lindberg engine." It was a javscript bookmarklet that took a comments page on reddit that complaining about python, and superimposed pictures of Van Lindberg all over it. The reddit page had then been "Van Lindberged" or "Lindbergified". It didn't sound like Guido was trying to start shiznit with Zed. It sounded like he was making light of the situation, and suggesting that Jesse "Van Lindberg" Zed for his comments.

nailer 17y ago
Zed was at PyCon, and probably got the joke. Van Lindberging is funny because it's an extreme response to what some devs see as a real problem, opinions without patches. Zed's pointing out he does in fact have patches, and can have more patches if they're likely to be accepted.
- jnoller 17y ago
  He has no patches. I see nothing on python-dev, bugs.python.org, etc. All I see is someone saying "I have code which is the balls, awesome". That's it.
  - GrandMasterBirt 17y ago
    I love it! Petty bickering is going to ultimately hurt everyone using python... a) Either you won't get good quality code because Zed may be right. or b) You will get Zed's python branch because he/others got pissed off enough and the python community will be split into two. I say B is a good solution. Eventually python-fusion will come out. :) Edit: Let the war begin!

rbanffy 17y ago

"slowly"?!