20 ms·

Oh for fuck sakes, your spin that homeschooling is mostly "culturally diverse, community-involved, and intellectually curious" is really getting old. Even with

by logjam 13y ago

Oh for fuck sakes, your spin that homeschooling is mostly "culturally diverse, community-involved, and intellectually curious" is really getting old. Even with your anecdotal assertions, do you really, really expect us to believe that you're unaware of the number of parents in this country who home-school their kids largely if not solely to prevent access to such dreaded concepts as, oh....evolution: "Christian-based materials dominate a growing home-school education market that encompasses more than 1.5 million students in the U.S. And for most home-school parents, a Bible-based version of the Earth's creation is exactly what they want. Federal statistics from 2007 show 83% of home-schooling parents want to give their children "religious or moral instruction. "The majority of home-schoolers self-identify as evangelical Christians," said Ian Slatter, a spokesman for the Home School Legal Defense Association. "Most home-schoolers will definitely have a sort of creationist component to their home-school program."" http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/religion/2010-03-08-home-school-christian_N.htm http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/religion/2010-03-08-home... In what way is homeschooling to suit a parent's utter stupidity not a prison?

argonaut 13y ago
So.. then what? Ban homeschooling? You would remove the ability for families to teach their kids creationism while at the same time putting gifted children in schools that are largely stifling and restrictive, when they could otherwise be homeschooled (crudely put, bring up the bottom while bringing down the top), perpetuating the race towards the lowest common denominator. Oh, the irony.
- jlgreco 13y ago
  > So.. then what? Ban homeschooling? If there is no way to effectively regulate it to ensure that the children are getting a real education, then yes. Parents should not be permitted to deny their children a real education. They can supplement that real education as they please, but not deprive them of it.
  - johndevor 13y ago
    So you show up at their doorstep with guns and demand that their kids come along? I'm with you on the need to teach rational thought, but I don't see how violence achieves or encourages that end.
    - jlgreco 13y ago
      There is no need for new or reformed enforcement, compulsory attendance laws already exist. The only difference there would be that homeschooling would no longer count as "attendance". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_education#United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_education#United_Sta...
      - cgag 13y ago
        So in a word, yes.
        jlgreco 13y ago
        Yes. Really little different than the other circumstances in which Child Protective Services might show up with a police escort.
    - justin66 13y ago
      I'm not sure how apropos this is, but I've noted that the phrase "show up at their doorstep with guns" and closely related phrases are the cue for normal people who are listening to the Libertarian Schtick at a party or something to disengage and go get a drink or something. It's way less persuasive than you think it is.
      - notdrunkatall 13y ago
        Regardless of which political movement you or anyone else associates that phrase with, that is essentially what anti-homeschooling proponents are advocating.
      - 13y ago
clavalle 13y ago
I have to agree with tokenadult. It may be the circles I run in but the people I know who homeschool do so for the 'There is No Speed Limit' effect rather than to indoctrinate their kids with some religious belief or insulate them from ideas that conflict with such religious indoctrination.
- saturdayplace 13y ago
  Because some may not know the "There is no speed limit" reference: http://sivers.org/kimo http://sivers.org/kimo. It's a great article.
- educating 13y ago
  Though I appreciate the initiative of those that homeschool, there are only two kinds that I've known: 1. Those that shouldn't be homeschooling because they are not trained as educators, certainly not in all of the subjects they need to teach, but they are religiously conservative to the point of some social withdrawal, and don't want their kids going to public school and being exposed to drugs and liberalism. I've known many people in this category. BTW- I'm somewhat conservative and religious, so when I say they are conservative and religious, I mean really conservative and religious. 2. Those that are so liberal they take their kid on a round the world trip spending all of their life's savings and money from their newly-sold house to do so, homeschooling (some would say no-schooling or light-schooling) during the trip with little support or structure. When they got back they got a lower-paying job and started from ground-zero again, with their kid who disliked the trip and missed months of education. I only know one person in this category. I have never been introduced to a no-speed-limit homeschooler.
  - dangoor 13y ago
    Hi, I'm Kevin. Pleased to meet you. Now you know someone who doesn't fit either of those molds :) I'm co-moderator of a secular homeschooling group and your description doesn't really match anyone in our group (20-30 families). There are unschoolers, but there are also people who follow various approaches to varying degrees.
dkl 13y ago
It seems to be a hipster trend in the Bay Area. At least, the only people I know that do it are hipsters and don't do it for religious reasons. However, this is the Bay Area, so it might not have any relation to why people do it in Iowa, say.
light3 13y ago
>In what way is homeschooling to suit a parent's utter stupidity not a prison? Have you considered the case where the parent is not 'stupid'?
- laureny 13y ago
  > Have you considered the case where the parent is not 'stupid'? The irony of the situation is that parents who are educated and intelligent and, therefore, great candidates to be good homeschool teachers also realize that they are not up to the task of homeschooling their children.
  - handojin 13y ago
    Or make an economic decision to prioritize revenue. We went a different route. No blame. Everyone should read Foucault though.
  - jbellis 13y ago
    Homeschooled child of a college valedictorian and a Harvard PhD here to disagree with you.
  - cliffu 13y ago
    An educated and intelligent parent taking personal interest in a child's education vs. an overworked or underperforming (cannot be fired, unions) teacher lecturing to the lowest common denominator of 30 students at a time. I know which one I'd bet on.
zdean 13y ago
1) tokenadult doesn't make any generalizations about the homeschooling community at large. He simply shares his personal homeschooling experience and rational for pursuing it. 2) what difference does it make if 99% of the early adopters are ultra-right wing, conservative Christian creationists? If homeschooling my kids gives them the best environment to develop academically and socially, why should it affect my decision to know the motivation of everyone else that's doing it?
- lmartel 13y ago
  The note that he "knows hundreds" of homeschooling families and the claim that they all conform to his model seems like a generalization about the homeschooling community at large, even if it's not 100% explicit.
  - zdean 13y ago
    No, it's actually a generalization about the homeschoolers that he knows...which is a subset (that he selected) of the greater homeschooling community. Look, no one is denying that there are lots of religiously motivated people that homeschool their children. But for those that aren't, this is a completely irrelevant fact. If you've got an argument that shows me that homeschooling as an educational approach is fundamentally flawed because religious people are a majority of the early adopters, I'd love to hear it.
- sanderjd 13y ago
  Ignoring (1), the difference (2) makes is that some people believe public-schooling to be a lesser evil than the probability of home-schooling being indoctrination instead of education, and those people tend to be in favor of policies making it more difficult for parents to have complete control over the home-schooling of their children, which home-schooling proponents like tokenadult are typically (understandably!) opposed to.
  - knewter 13y ago
    The fact that homeschooling is referred to as indoctrination when compared with public schooling sickens me. I can't really think of many more poorly designed systems than (1) a popularly elected government, who (2) controls what its future voters are taught. As engineers, this should be an easy point to take hold of. How is the publicly elected government planning curriculum somehow less indoctrination than a parent doing the same?
mattchew 13y ago
I know a number of homeschoolers who are creationists. Most of them are perfectly capable, not-stupid people, doing a good job raising their kids and educating them. You wouldn't call them stupid, or think their kids were stupid, if you met them without knowing they were creationists. The fact that they're mistaken about evolution is not very important in the big picture.
- chii 13y ago
  > The fact that they're mistaken about evolution is not very important in the big picture. no, its not very important whether they are creationists or not. The more worrying fact is that given the overwhelming evidence that points to the theory of evolution as being true, they decidedly deny it in favour of a less proven theory. I.e., they lack critical evaluation skills which is important in deciding matters - such as who to vote for.
  - xerophtye 13y ago
    Ok a little off the main topic here, but since on THIS node there is a mini-debate going about creationist vs evolution, i just want to say that i never truly understood why a person cant be both :/ What's wrong with the notion that the creator just used evolution to create things? Why must he create them as they are. Cuz i personally view the creator as The Great Coder (or Goder or God for short :P) who jsut wrote an epicly long program and hit the "Compile and execute" button! (hence the BIG BANG) :P Just a thought
    - Amadou 13y ago
      What's wrong with the notion that the creator just used evolution to create things? That is basically the modern catholic church's opinion on the matter. The problem you are having is that the word "creationism" is not a definition, it is a summary. For the most part, the word refers to a literal belief in the genesis book of the bible.
      - xerophtye 13y ago
icelancer 13y ago
Religious zealots use Method X to brainwash their kids. Therefore, Method X is the problem. Hmm.
Torgo 13y ago
Probably half of my childhood friends were homeschooled for religious reasons. Their education did include creationism, which I consider flat-out wrong. Nevertheless they are some of the most well adjusted and smart people I know. It shouldn't be an either-or proposition, but if someone gets a better education in math, reading and history but also gets creationism, they are still better off than a student getting a shitty education in every subject including a science curriculum that includes evolution.

by logjam 13y ago

argonaut 13y ago

So.. then what? Ban homeschooling? You would remove the ability for families to teach their kids creationism while at the same time putting gifted children in schools that are largely stifling and restrictive, when they could otherwise be homeschooled (crudely put, bring up the bottom while bringing down the top), perpetuating the race towards the lowest common denominator. Oh, the irony.

jlgreco 13y ago
> So.. then what? Ban homeschooling? If there is no way to effectively regulate it to ensure that the children are getting a real education, then yes. Parents should not be permitted to deny their children a real education. They can supplement that real education as they please, but not deprive them of it.
- johndevor 13y ago
  So you show up at their doorstep with guns and demand that their kids come along? I'm with you on the need to teach rational thought, but I don't see how violence achieves or encourages that end.
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    There is no need for new or reformed enforcement, compulsory attendance laws already exist. The only difference there would be that homeschooling would no longer count as "attendance". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_education#United_States http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_education#United_Sta...
    - cgag 13y ago
      So in a word, yes.
      - jlgreco 13y ago
        Yes. Really little different than the other circumstances in which Child Protective Services might show up with a police escort.
  - justin66 13y ago
    I'm not sure how apropos this is, but I've noted that the phrase "show up at their doorstep with guns" and closely related phrases are the cue for normal people who are listening to the Libertarian Schtick at a party or something to disengage and go get a drink or something. It's way less persuasive than you think it is.
    - notdrunkatall 13y ago
      Regardless of which political movement you or anyone else associates that phrase with, that is essentially what anti-homeschooling proponents are advocating.
    - 13y ago

clavalle 13y ago

I have to agree with tokenadult. It may be the circles I run in but the people I know who homeschool do so for the 'There is No Speed Limit' effect rather than to indoctrinate their kids with some religious belief or insulate them from ideas that conflict with such religious indoctrination.

saturdayplace 13y ago
Because some may not know the "There is no speed limit" reference: http://sivers.org/kimo http://sivers.org/kimo. It's a great article.
educating 13y ago
Though I appreciate the initiative of those that homeschool, there are only two kinds that I've known: 1. Those that shouldn't be homeschooling because they are not trained as educators, certainly not in all of the subjects they need to teach, but they are religiously conservative to the point of some social withdrawal, and don't want their kids going to public school and being exposed to drugs and liberalism. I've known many people in this category. BTW- I'm somewhat conservative and religious, so when I say they are conservative and religious, I mean really conservative and religious. 2. Those that are so liberal they take their kid on a round the world trip spending all of their life's savings and money from their newly-sold house to do so, homeschooling (some would say no-schooling or light-schooling) during the trip with little support or structure. When they got back they got a lower-paying job and started from ground-zero again, with their kid who disliked the trip and missed months of education. I only know one person in this category. I have never been introduced to a no-speed-limit homeschooler.
- dangoor 13y ago
  Hi, I'm Kevin. Pleased to meet you. Now you know someone who doesn't fit either of those molds :) I'm co-moderator of a secular homeschooling group and your description doesn't really match anyone in our group (20-30 families). There are unschoolers, but there are also people who follow various approaches to varying degrees.

dkl 13y ago

It seems to be a hipster trend in the Bay Area. At least, the only people I know that do it are hipsters and don't do it for religious reasons. However, this is the Bay Area, so it might not have any relation to why people do it in Iowa, say.

light3 13y ago

>In what way is homeschooling to suit a parent's utter stupidity not a prison? Have you considered the case where the parent is not 'stupid'?

laureny 13y ago
> Have you considered the case where the parent is not 'stupid'? The irony of the situation is that parents who are educated and intelligent and, therefore, great candidates to be good homeschool teachers also realize that they are not up to the task of homeschooling their children.
- handojin 13y ago
  Or make an economic decision to prioritize revenue. We went a different route. No blame. Everyone should read Foucault though.
- jbellis 13y ago
  Homeschooled child of a college valedictorian and a Harvard PhD here to disagree with you.
- cliffu 13y ago
  An educated and intelligent parent taking personal interest in a child's education vs. an overworked or underperforming (cannot be fired, unions) teacher lecturing to the lowest common denominator of 30 students at a time. I know which one I'd bet on.

zdean 13y ago

1) tokenadult doesn't make any generalizations about the homeschooling community at large. He simply shares his personal homeschooling experience and rational for pursuing it. 2) what difference does it make if 99% of the early adopters are ultra-right wing, conservative Christian creationists? If homeschooling my kids gives them the best environment to develop academically and socially, why should it affect my decision to know the motivation of everyone else that's doing it?

lmartel 13y ago
The note that he "knows hundreds" of homeschooling families and the claim that they all conform to his model seems like a generalization about the homeschooling community at large, even if it's not 100% explicit.
- zdean 13y ago
  No, it's actually a generalization about the homeschoolers that he knows...which is a subset (that he selected) of the greater homeschooling community. Look, no one is denying that there are lots of religiously motivated people that homeschool their children. But for those that aren't, this is a completely irrelevant fact. If you've got an argument that shows me that homeschooling as an educational approach is fundamentally flawed because religious people are a majority of the early adopters, I'd love to hear it.
sanderjd 13y ago
Ignoring (1), the difference (2) makes is that some people believe public-schooling to be a lesser evil than the probability of home-schooling being indoctrination instead of education, and those people tend to be in favor of policies making it more difficult for parents to have complete control over the home-schooling of their children, which home-schooling proponents like tokenadult are typically (understandably!) opposed to.
- knewter 13y ago
  The fact that homeschooling is referred to as indoctrination when compared with public schooling sickens me. I can't really think of many more poorly designed systems than (1) a popularly elected government, who (2) controls what its future voters are taught. As engineers, this should be an easy point to take hold of. How is the publicly elected government planning curriculum somehow less indoctrination than a parent doing the same?

mattchew 13y ago

I know a number of homeschoolers who are creationists. Most of them are perfectly capable, not-stupid people, doing a good job raising their kids and educating them. You wouldn't call them stupid, or think their kids were stupid, if you met them without knowing they were creationists. The fact that they're mistaken about evolution is not very important in the big picture.

chii 13y ago
> The fact that they're mistaken about evolution is not very important in the big picture. no, its not very important whether they are creationists or not. The more worrying fact is that given the overwhelming evidence that points to the theory of evolution as being true, they decidedly deny it in favour of a less proven theory. I.e., they lack critical evaluation skills which is important in deciding matters - such as who to vote for.
- xerophtye 13y ago
  Ok a little off the main topic here, but since on THIS node there is a mini-debate going about creationist vs evolution, i just want to say that i never truly understood why a person cant be both :/ What's wrong with the notion that the creator just used evolution to create things? Why must he create them as they are. Cuz i personally view the creator as The Great Coder (or Goder or God for short :P) who jsut wrote an epicly long program and hit the "Compile and execute" button! (hence the BIG BANG) :P Just a thought
  - Amadou 13y ago
    What's wrong with the notion that the creator just used evolution to create things? That is basically the modern catholic church's opinion on the matter. The problem you are having is that the word "creationism" is not a definition, it is a summary. For the most part, the word refers to a literal belief in the genesis book of the bible.
    - xerophtye 13y ago

icelancer 13y ago

Religious zealots use Method X to brainwash their kids. Therefore, Method X is the problem. Hmm.

Torgo 13y ago

Probably half of my childhood friends were homeschooled for religious reasons. Their education did include creationism, which I consider flat-out wrong. Nevertheless they are some of the most well adjusted and smart people I know. It shouldn't be an either-or proposition, but if someone gets a better education in math, reading and history but also gets creationism, they are still better off than a student getting a shitty education in every subject including a science curriculum that includes evolution.