15 ms·

I think the point that's overlooked here is that the offenders aren't the clever apps that would be impossible to write without javascript. Go ahead and write t

I think the point that's overlooked here is that the offenders aren't the clever apps that would be impossible to write without javascript. Go ahead and write those. I'm happy for you, really. The problem is pages that require javascript to display static content. There are very few good reasons for an article, or an image gallery, or a homepage that could have been displayed just fine a decade ago to now need javascript so it can do some stupid flashy thing that breaks the expected interface behaviour. And frankly, that's most of what I'm seeing in "Sigh, Javascript."

leokun 13y ago
Check out meteor.js for why JavaScript would be needed for "static only content". Real time updates. That's why. Everything is an app.
- mynameisme 13y ago
  Is this something people even want in content driven sites though? Imagine reddit in real time, it would be a mess and impossible to keep track of what you last read.
  - kansface 13y ago
    Why should users have to click refresh for pages to load more comments or to see when someone replies to you? The fact that reddit does not do this is not evidence that it would be confusing.
    - icebraining 13y ago
      Because sites that distract me from what I'm reading to tell me that there are new comments are extremely annoying. Sure, you could add, say, auto-loading for new comments when you reach the bottom of the page, or setting the message icon to orange when you get a reply, but that hardly requires a full-blown web app, it's a simple addon to a static site.
      - camus 13y ago
        disqus deals with this issue quite well , disqus will just notify you there are new comments ,it's up to you to load them or not.
  - sgdesign 13y ago
    You can try out for yourself :) http://telesc.pe http://telesc.pe
    - mynameisme 13y ago
      I have, and it works ok when there is a ton of concurrent users. But on the other hand, I don't think the UX of telescope is any better than reddit's and in some ways worse (example: clicking on a post with a large amount of comments cause the page to pause without any visual feedback. This could be fixed, but is any better than just a regular link?)
- anonymousab 13y ago
  Which is silly. If I'm just trying to view a news article from yesterday or a year ago, I shouldn't have to worry about what some silly script is trying to do. If the core of the content is or should be text, then there's no need for countless silly layers around it.
  - leokun 13y ago
    Maybe you want a PDF instead.
    - asdasf 13y ago
      Or maybe some sort of "hypertext" document. That could contain links to other such documents, allowing users to easily navigate content. All this interlinked content could form some sort of "web" even.
- Joeboy 13y ago
  So, for static content that changes in real time.
- FooBarWidget 13y ago
  When your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. There are valid use cases that meteor.js is awesome for, but one should avoid cargo culting.
- TelmoMenezes 13y ago
  Maybe I'm getting old but sometimes I really really don't want real time updates.
  - marknutter 13y ago
    You want to keep hitting refresh, refresh, refresh?
    - dllthomas 13y ago
      He wants the page not to change under him when he hasn't hit refresh. Personally, race conditions between user and UI drive me crazy.
- superluminary 13y ago
  No reason why you can't provide real time updates on your content driven site. and respect progressive enhancement. I'd submit this would be the easiest way to do it.
mmastrac 13y ago
What, exactly, is the issue with writing a simple content site that requires JS? If you aren't pulling in half a MB of JS, but it does require scripting to function, I don't see the problem. Just because I could spend the effort to be progressive doesn't constrain me to have to do it. It doesn't make me a lazy programmer either: just pragmatic. 99.99% of the people visiting my site have JS enabled and I'm happy to support them just fine without worrying about the really long tail.
- andrenotgiant 13y ago
  Javascript-dependent content _can_ present problems for search engine accessibility
  - mmastrac 13y ago
    There have been techniques for dealing with this for a very long time: https://developers.google.com/webmasters/ajax-crawling/docs/html-snapshot https://developers.google.com/webmasters/ajax-crawling/docs/... And this is only an issue for pages where you actually want to expose your content to search engines.
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
    - pornel 13y ago
      Sigh, Google-only websites. _escaped_fragment_ is a stupid hack that requires hardest bit of work needed for progressive enhancement, but provides none of the benefit.
      - slig 13y ago
        It's not like other search engines can't step up their game and build the same functionality.
        repsilat 13y ago
pekk 13y ago
The top reason to require Javascript is to enable user tracking (e.g. Google Analytics, but not just that at all).

leokun 13y ago

Check out meteor.js for why JavaScript would be needed for "static only content". Real time updates. That's why. Everything is an app.

mynameisme 13y ago
Is this something people even want in content driven sites though? Imagine reddit in real time, it would be a mess and impossible to keep track of what you last read.
- kansface 13y ago
  Why should users have to click refresh for pages to load more comments or to see when someone replies to you? The fact that reddit does not do this is not evidence that it would be confusing.
  - icebraining 13y ago
    Because sites that distract me from what I'm reading to tell me that there are new comments are extremely annoying. Sure, you could add, say, auto-loading for new comments when you reach the bottom of the page, or setting the message icon to orange when you get a reply, but that hardly requires a full-blown web app, it's a simple addon to a static site.
    - camus 13y ago
      disqus deals with this issue quite well , disqus will just notify you there are new comments ,it's up to you to load them or not.
- sgdesign 13y ago
  You can try out for yourself :) http://telesc.pe http://telesc.pe
  - mynameisme 13y ago
    I have, and it works ok when there is a ton of concurrent users. But on the other hand, I don't think the UX of telescope is any better than reddit's and in some ways worse (example: clicking on a post with a large amount of comments cause the page to pause without any visual feedback. This could be fixed, but is any better than just a regular link?)
anonymousab 13y ago
Which is silly. If I'm just trying to view a news article from yesterday or a year ago, I shouldn't have to worry about what some silly script is trying to do. If the core of the content is or should be text, then there's no need for countless silly layers around it.
- leokun 13y ago
  Maybe you want a PDF instead.
  - asdasf 13y ago
    Or maybe some sort of "hypertext" document. That could contain links to other such documents, allowing users to easily navigate content. All this interlinked content could form some sort of "web" even.
Joeboy 13y ago
So, for static content that changes in real time.
FooBarWidget 13y ago
When your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. There are valid use cases that meteor.js is awesome for, but one should avoid cargo culting.
TelmoMenezes 13y ago
Maybe I'm getting old but sometimes I really really don't want real time updates.
- marknutter 13y ago
  You want to keep hitting refresh, refresh, refresh?
  - dllthomas 13y ago
    He wants the page not to change under him when he hasn't hit refresh. Personally, race conditions between user and UI drive me crazy.
superluminary 13y ago
No reason why you can't provide real time updates on your content driven site. and respect progressive enhancement. I'd submit this would be the easiest way to do it.

mmastrac 13y ago

What, exactly, is the issue with writing a simple content site that requires JS? If you aren't pulling in half a MB of JS, but it does require scripting to function, I don't see the problem. Just because I could spend the effort to be progressive doesn't constrain me to have to do it. It doesn't make me a lazy programmer either: just pragmatic. 99.99% of the people visiting my site have JS enabled and I'm happy to support them just fine without worrying about the really long tail.

andrenotgiant 13y ago
Javascript-dependent content _can_ present problems for search engine accessibility
- mmastrac 13y ago
  There have been techniques for dealing with this for a very long time: https://developers.google.com/webmasters/ajax-crawling/docs/html-snapshot https://developers.google.com/webmasters/ajax-crawling/docs/... And this is only an issue for pages where you actually want to expose your content to search engines.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - pornel 13y ago
    Sigh, Google-only websites. _escaped_fragment_ is a stupid hack that requires hardest bit of work needed for progressive enhancement, but provides none of the benefit.
    - slig 13y ago
      It's not like other search engines can't step up their game and build the same functionality.
      - repsilat 13y ago

pekk 13y ago

The top reason to require Javascript is to enable user tracking (e.g. Google Analytics, but not just that at all).