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While that's true for the autoworker example, it's not true for the lawyer example: The best lawyers produced much more than the normal lawyers. I would put pro

While that's true for the autoworker example, it's not true for the lawyer example: The best lawyers produced much more than the normal lawyers. I would put programmers roughly on par with the law industry, not with the auto industry.

grandalf 13y ago
Please elaborate. Define "best" in the context of lawyers. Is it a graduate of Harvard Law? Or someone who managed to make partner at a major firm? How do you define output for a lawyer? Billable hours? Cases won? Contracts written?
- derefr 13y ago
  The nice thing about measuring output for lawyers, is that a fair share of them work as either independent contractors, or partners. In both cases, you've got the best proxy for productivity we have: profit.
- cowsandmilk 13y ago
  defining "best" for a lawyer is similar to defining "best" for a software developer. It is production of quality at a rapid rate, choosing the right tools for a job, etc.
  - fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
    Aren't you guys using the economic definition of 'best' as in best = brings_in_the_most_money_per_unit_of_time_expended
    - grandalf 13y ago
      They are. This would lead to the conclusion that Linus Torvalds is fairly middle of the road, etc.
      - mseebach 13y ago
        Just because Linus isn't actually selling his work directly, it doesn't follow that the output of his labour is economically worthless, it's just harder to measure.
      - nostrademons 13y ago
        Linus Torvalds made millions off the VA Linux and Redhat Linux IPOs, both of whom gifted him with decent stock grants for his role in their corporate success. He's not hurting for money, and in terms of percentiles would easily be in the top 1% among both developers and the general public.
        grandalf 13y ago
        Fair enough, but then it also follows that the youtube founders are significantly better than Linus.
        Dylan16807 13y ago
        There's always going to be outliers, especially if you allow such messy variables in as 'founding a business'. That doesn't do much to disprove the general metric.
- karlkatzke 13y ago
  How do you define "best" for a software developer? Lines of code written? Products shipped? Bugs fixed? Tickets closed? For both, it's a softer metric. Lawyers are also a good example because a large number of them work in independent consulting practice (where the "best" ones are the most profitable), but there's also a decent population in corporate law where they are paid on a salaried basis and have a less measurable impact on the bottom line.
  - grandalf 13y ago
    I am not the one trying to define (or use) the concept of productivity in this discussion. So I don't think it's remotely straightforward. I'm not sure how useful it is either. A career in law is largely dominated by the "partner track", which in modern software circles is equivalent to getting hired by Google or Microsoft. The bar is pretty high to get in, few ever get fired, and the pay is good.
    - karlkatzke 13y ago
      I would certainly say that a career in IT is defined by which track you choose. Are you familiar with the growing body of evidence that shows not many people are employed in a fashion commensurate with their experience after the age of 40 to 45? That's equivalent to the partner track. To review it slightly -- You either become a greybeard (partner), you become a manager (could also be considered a type of partner), you become a highly paid consultant but don't achieve your previous salary-equivalent. If you miss your mark and don't achieve one of those, either you wash out of the field, or you have a difficult time finding a place and when you do you accept one that is not in line with your experience. (ex: You were an AIX admin paid $120k/yr, now you are a contractor for Dell making 4-hour response service calls on server hardware.) And I would also not say that a job at Google or Microsoft is for life (you get stack ranked out pretty fast at Microsoft as you age), nor would I say that the pay's that good unless you're really awesome. I've gotten SF Bay offers, and after you factor for cost of living changes, they're much less than I make for my current company telecommuting from central Texas.
      - 13y ago

grandalf 13y ago

Please elaborate. Define "best" in the context of lawyers. Is it a graduate of Harvard Law? Or someone who managed to make partner at a major firm? How do you define output for a lawyer? Billable hours? Cases won? Contracts written?

derefr 13y ago
The nice thing about measuring output for lawyers, is that a fair share of them work as either independent contractors, or partners. In both cases, you've got the best proxy for productivity we have: profit.
cowsandmilk 13y ago
defining "best" for a lawyer is similar to defining "best" for a software developer. It is production of quality at a rapid rate, choosing the right tools for a job, etc.
- fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
  Aren't you guys using the economic definition of 'best' as in best = brings_in_the_most_money_per_unit_of_time_expended
  - grandalf 13y ago
    They are. This would lead to the conclusion that Linus Torvalds is fairly middle of the road, etc.
    - mseebach 13y ago
      Just because Linus isn't actually selling his work directly, it doesn't follow that the output of his labour is economically worthless, it's just harder to measure.
    - nostrademons 13y ago
      Linus Torvalds made millions off the VA Linux and Redhat Linux IPOs, both of whom gifted him with decent stock grants for his role in their corporate success. He's not hurting for money, and in terms of percentiles would easily be in the top 1% among both developers and the general public.
      - grandalf 13y ago
        Fair enough, but then it also follows that the youtube founders are significantly better than Linus.
        Dylan16807 13y ago
        There's always going to be outliers, especially if you allow such messy variables in as 'founding a business'. That doesn't do much to disprove the general metric.
karlkatzke 13y ago
How do you define "best" for a software developer? Lines of code written? Products shipped? Bugs fixed? Tickets closed? For both, it's a softer metric. Lawyers are also a good example because a large number of them work in independent consulting practice (where the "best" ones are the most profitable), but there's also a decent population in corporate law where they are paid on a salaried basis and have a less measurable impact on the bottom line.
- grandalf 13y ago
  I am not the one trying to define (or use) the concept of productivity in this discussion. So I don't think it's remotely straightforward. I'm not sure how useful it is either. A career in law is largely dominated by the "partner track", which in modern software circles is equivalent to getting hired by Google or Microsoft. The bar is pretty high to get in, few ever get fired, and the pay is good.
  - karlkatzke 13y ago
    I would certainly say that a career in IT is defined by which track you choose. Are you familiar with the growing body of evidence that shows not many people are employed in a fashion commensurate with their experience after the age of 40 to 45? That's equivalent to the partner track. To review it slightly -- You either become a greybeard (partner), you become a manager (could also be considered a type of partner), you become a highly paid consultant but don't achieve your previous salary-equivalent. If you miss your mark and don't achieve one of those, either you wash out of the field, or you have a difficult time finding a place and when you do you accept one that is not in line with your experience. (ex: You were an AIX admin paid $120k/yr, now you are a contractor for Dell making 4-hour response service calls on server hardware.) And I would also not say that a job at Google or Microsoft is for life (you get stack ranked out pretty fast at Microsoft as you age), nor would I say that the pay's that good unless you're really awesome. I've gotten SF Bay offers, and after you factor for cost of living changes, they're much less than I make for my current company telecommuting from central Texas.
    - 13y ago