4 ms·

If you're not willing and able to stand up and speak up, you're just as unprofessional and incompetent as those you are blaming. I'm sorry I'm so blunt, but I'

If you're not willing and able to stand up and speak up, you're just as unprofessional and incompetent as those you are blaming. I'm sorry I'm so blunt, but I'm getting so tired of developers whining as if they are victims. We are not poor exploited coal miners, we are well paid, sought after professionals. Start acting like it.

Iftheshoefits 13y ago
You're assuming that there is an equitable distribution of power, authority and responsibility, or that management is interested in mutual understanding and cooperation. That is often not the case. In fact, my experience is that management typically view employees essentially as either potential competition for their jobs or else inferiors to be treated as such.
hosh 13y ago
I don't think not standing up and speaking up necessarily means someone is just as unprofessional and incompetent. This is more a matter of courage than professionalism or competency.
- MetaCosm 13y ago
  Also depends a lot on corporate culture. I was told at a company point blank "stop bringing <problem x> up". So I did (left shortly after).
  - hosh 13y ago
    Leaving shortly after -- good for you! Being told to stop bringing up a problem (that really is a problem) is for me, an indicator that the foundations of an organization is rotting, and the end is near.
Bartweiss 13y ago
I've never believed in the argument that silence is as bad as active complicity, but I think it's particularly untrue here. The impression I came away with was the the most likely outcome of challenging this decision is a quick dismissal for failing to follow instructions. Finding a new job is certainly a reasonable option, but expecting someone to mar their work history by being fired over a fight they can't win isn't productive.
vladimirralev 13y ago
Who is going to pay you for the risk of confrontation? Like others already said, its not your job to oversee the management. As a team member priority number one is to keep the peace. The best you can do it to give small hints here and there by asking for justification/vision/mission statement that makes sense. If management don't catch on the hints, there is nothing else you can do. I am surprised this person has so much vision over the state of the business, if there is nothing else that can explain the situation you have to leave.
- philsnow 13y ago
  > its not your job to oversee the management. As a team member priority number one is to keep the peace. I strenuously disagree; employees should have the right, if not the obligation, to keep their direct management honest [0]. It forestalls situations that turn into HN horror stories. If you feel like doing so would put your employment in jeopardy, all you can do is take orders, right ? [0] by "keep them honest" I don't mean to imply that management lies to employees; it's a figure of speech in American English that AFAIK means to make sure the other party knows that you're watching out for any foul play.
  - vladimirralev 13y ago
    I've heard this before, but there is only so much you can do. You can't be constantly calling your manager on his bullshit. What kind of relationship are you going to have this way? I agree with you to the extent that you can give hints and ask the manager one or two tough questions. Once the OP raised the issue with the lost money and the case was dismissed, that's all you can do. Some managers are passive-aggressive, they will exploit the peace and just sit and wait to be confronted about everything. And any confrontation labels you abrasive or without respect for authority and that puts you into a losing situation. You must know what kind of person you are dealing with. A bad manager is a bad manager. Best option is to leave asap, if you have a bad manager you will never advance your career.
    - philsnow 13y ago
smtddr 13y ago
That's not fair. For one, not every developer has their linkedin inmail overflowing with job offers. This is more about how strongly one feels about their opinion/conviction. It's a soul-searching type of choice. Example: I personally refuse to to put my name on a decision for something that I strongly believe will be an _embarrassing_ failure and clear sign of incompetence. This happened to me twice. The first time it got escalated above my boss and they were not pleased with me at all. Emails had sentences in all caps at some points, but I got my way. It's unclear if I was actually right or not but nothing bad happened when production went live so there was nothing to blame me with. We kept on working together. The 2nd time I did this in a different job & company, I was ultimately terminated. I did find out 7 months later that I was right and the project failed at least in small part due to ignoring my advice. I don't regret any of this, but I can't tell someone else what kind of risks to take.

Iftheshoefits 13y ago

You're assuming that there is an equitable distribution of power, authority and responsibility, or that management is interested in mutual understanding and cooperation. That is often not the case. In fact, my experience is that management typically view employees essentially as either potential competition for their jobs or else inferiors to be treated as such.

hosh 13y ago

I don't think not standing up and speaking up necessarily means someone is just as unprofessional and incompetent. This is more a matter of courage than professionalism or competency.

MetaCosm 13y ago
Also depends a lot on corporate culture. I was told at a company point blank "stop bringing <problem x> up". So I did (left shortly after).
- hosh 13y ago
  Leaving shortly after -- good for you! Being told to stop bringing up a problem (that really is a problem) is for me, an indicator that the foundations of an organization is rotting, and the end is near.

Bartweiss 13y ago

I've never believed in the argument that silence is as bad as active complicity, but I think it's particularly untrue here. The impression I came away with was the the most likely outcome of challenging this decision is a quick dismissal for failing to follow instructions. Finding a new job is certainly a reasonable option, but expecting someone to mar their work history by being fired over a fight they can't win isn't productive.

vladimirralev 13y ago

Who is going to pay you for the risk of confrontation? Like others already said, its not your job to oversee the management. As a team member priority number one is to keep the peace. The best you can do it to give small hints here and there by asking for justification/vision/mission statement that makes sense. If management don't catch on the hints, there is nothing else you can do. I am surprised this person has so much vision over the state of the business, if there is nothing else that can explain the situation you have to leave.

philsnow 13y ago
> its not your job to oversee the management. As a team member priority number one is to keep the peace. I strenuously disagree; employees should have the right, if not the obligation, to keep their direct management honest [0]. It forestalls situations that turn into HN horror stories. If you feel like doing so would put your employment in jeopardy, all you can do is take orders, right ? [0] by "keep them honest" I don't mean to imply that management lies to employees; it's a figure of speech in American English that AFAIK means to make sure the other party knows that you're watching out for any foul play.
- vladimirralev 13y ago
  I've heard this before, but there is only so much you can do. You can't be constantly calling your manager on his bullshit. What kind of relationship are you going to have this way? I agree with you to the extent that you can give hints and ask the manager one or two tough questions. Once the OP raised the issue with the lost money and the case was dismissed, that's all you can do. Some managers are passive-aggressive, they will exploit the peace and just sit and wait to be confronted about everything. And any confrontation labels you abrasive or without respect for authority and that puts you into a losing situation. You must know what kind of person you are dealing with. A bad manager is a bad manager. Best option is to leave asap, if you have a bad manager you will never advance your career.
  - philsnow 13y ago

smtddr 13y ago

That's not fair. For one, not every developer has their linkedin inmail overflowing with job offers. This is more about how strongly one feels about their opinion/conviction. It's a soul-searching type of choice. Example: I personally refuse to to put my name on a decision for something that I strongly believe will be an _embarrassing_ failure and clear sign of incompetence. This happened to me twice. The first time it got escalated above my boss and they were not pleased with me at all. Emails had sentences in all caps at some points, but I got my way. It's unclear if I was actually right or not but nothing bad happened when production went live so there was nothing to blame me with. We kept on working together. The 2nd time I did this in a different job & company, I was ultimately terminated. I did find out 7 months later that I was right and the project failed at least in small part due to ignoring my advice. I don't regret any of this, but I can't tell someone else what kind of risks to take.