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Poverty in the US is nothing like poverty in other countries. Poor people in the US mostly still have tvs, etc. Poor people in true Third world countries wash t

by kjackson2012 13y ago

Poverty in the US is nothing like poverty in other countries. Poor people in the US mostly still have tvs, etc. Poor people in true Third world countries wash themselves in puddle water, and poor children play in garbage dumps. I've seen both with my own eyes. I don't agree that Americans need a basic income guarantee whatsoever. The idea might work in other countries, but certainly not in the US.

transfire 13y ago
This idea could not work in the kind of 3rd world country you are talking about. Those countries have a much more fundamental problem in not having a capitalized society at all. So there is no foundation for any such base income system to be built. For them to get out of poverty requires the removal of their corrupt governments and the establishment of a sound money system coupled with a required public education system.
- seanmcdirmid 13y ago
  Well, it could work if the BI was applied globally...that would be quite wonderful from a world peace, human rights perspective. It might not ever happen, but we can always hope. Of course, the corrupt governments would have to be removed first...
seanmcdirmid 13y ago
Your conclusion has no relationship whatsoever to your observation, and you don't describe a connection in your post. I live in a country with high income disparity, basically the poor are living in dumps, but I don't see what that has to do with the states which is further a long the developed country spectrum.
nawitus 13y ago
Poor people in the United States are more poor than most people in e.g. Scandinavian countries. You also made the fallacy of "if some people are worse off, then Americans shouldn't be any better". However, it's ethical to increase the standard of living of all people.
- kmfrk 13y ago
  And the programs work: http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3997 http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3997.
- a3n 13y ago
  And it's certainly ethical to try to increase the standard of living in your own country, regardless of how bad off others might be. I'm really weary of paying taxes to kill poor brown people on the other side of the world. I would be more than happy to pay taxes for a guaranteed income.
- jquery 13y ago
  If you break it down by race and ethnicity, this falls away. Poor Scandinavian people are as well off here as they are in their home country.
  - yummyfajitas 13y ago
    Do you have data on this? I've seen a few specific cases where this is true, but I don't know of data sets showing it to be true in general. I'd love to see a good data set which proves or disproves this.
fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
Dilemma for you to solve. Imagine that automation machinery completely overtakes the majority of all menial labor. And that it does so in less than a generation. Now, on the one hand this is wonderful because humans are mostly freed from drudgery, as well as many dangerous jobs. OTOH it is terrible because a vast number of people are now unable to support themselves. What solution do you propose? PS This has happened before (mechanized agriculture), and I am certain that this will happen for a large fraction of US workers in your lifetime.
- marknutter 13y ago
  New jobs will be invented, as they always are.
  - AlexanderDhoore 13y ago
    To me THIS is the crux of the problem. Basic Income is only needed IF there won't be enough jobs left. Which is an actual possibility. BUT history predicts otherwise. So the question is: Is this time different enough? Is this the moment that automation gets so good, people aren't needed anymore? ... I don't know.
  - parasight 13y ago
    True, but I doubt new jobs will be invented in the same number. Also those new jobs will demand a much higher education/qualification which is fine but then we have to make sure the poor will have access to higher education which they currently do not have for several reasons.
    - fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
      That's right, at least as far as technology goes; by design, all tech that increases productivity will produce fewer new jobs than the ones it displaces. They will be better/more desirable jobs, but fewer. The previous workers aren't always well-suited to be retrained from box-packer to SCADA programmer, their kids, maybe so, but you've still got the ones who were originally displaced left to euthanize.

transfire 13y ago

This idea could not work in the kind of 3rd world country you are talking about. Those countries have a much more fundamental problem in not having a capitalized society at all. So there is no foundation for any such base income system to be built. For them to get out of poverty requires the removal of their corrupt governments and the establishment of a sound money system coupled with a required public education system.

seanmcdirmid 13y ago
Well, it could work if the BI was applied globally...that would be quite wonderful from a world peace, human rights perspective. It might not ever happen, but we can always hope. Of course, the corrupt governments would have to be removed first...

seanmcdirmid 13y ago

Your conclusion has no relationship whatsoever to your observation, and you don't describe a connection in your post. I live in a country with high income disparity, basically the poor are living in dumps, but I don't see what that has to do with the states which is further a long the developed country spectrum.

nawitus 13y ago

Poor people in the United States are more poor than most people in e.g. Scandinavian countries. You also made the fallacy of "if some people are worse off, then Americans shouldn't be any better". However, it's ethical to increase the standard of living of all people.

kmfrk 13y ago
And the programs work: http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3997 http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3997.
a3n 13y ago
And it's certainly ethical to try to increase the standard of living in your own country, regardless of how bad off others might be. I'm really weary of paying taxes to kill poor brown people on the other side of the world. I would be more than happy to pay taxes for a guaranteed income.
jquery 13y ago
If you break it down by race and ethnicity, this falls away. Poor Scandinavian people are as well off here as they are in their home country.
- yummyfajitas 13y ago
  Do you have data on this? I've seen a few specific cases where this is true, but I don't know of data sets showing it to be true in general. I'd love to see a good data set which proves or disproves this.

fnordfnordfnord 13y ago

Dilemma for you to solve. Imagine that automation machinery completely overtakes the majority of all menial labor. And that it does so in less than a generation. Now, on the one hand this is wonderful because humans are mostly freed from drudgery, as well as many dangerous jobs. OTOH it is terrible because a vast number of people are now unable to support themselves. What solution do you propose? PS This has happened before (mechanized agriculture), and I am certain that this will happen for a large fraction of US workers in your lifetime.

marknutter 13y ago
New jobs will be invented, as they always are.
- AlexanderDhoore 13y ago
  To me THIS is the crux of the problem. Basic Income is only needed IF there won't be enough jobs left. Which is an actual possibility. BUT history predicts otherwise. So the question is: Is this time different enough? Is this the moment that automation gets so good, people aren't needed anymore? ... I don't know.
- parasight 13y ago
  True, but I doubt new jobs will be invented in the same number. Also those new jobs will demand a much higher education/qualification which is fine but then we have to make sure the poor will have access to higher education which they currently do not have for several reasons.
  - fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
    That's right, at least as far as technology goes; by design, all tech that increases productivity will produce fewer new jobs than the ones it displaces. They will be better/more desirable jobs, but fewer. The previous workers aren't always well-suited to be retrained from box-packer to SCADA programmer, their kids, maybe so, but you've still got the ones who were originally displaced left to euthanize.