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A universal health care system would probably fix a lot of this, as it should reduce the number of untreated mental disorders. When I was still considering mov

A universal health care system would probably fix a lot of this, as it should reduce the number of untreated mental disorders. When I was still considering moving to another country, one of the factors I used to assess the attractiveness of a country was the worst worst case metric. The worst worst case metric looks at what might happen if things get worse than what you think of when you hear the words "worst case". Basically, I looked at how prisoners and the insane are treated. For instance, the metric allowed me to rule out Serbia pretty fast. It also led me to rule out the US.

refurb 13y ago
Canada has universal healthcare yet the homeless problem in Vancouver is only getting worse. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_Vancouver http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_Vancouver
- timr 13y ago
  That's not a rebuttal to the parent's argument. For all we know, the homeless residents of Vancouver could be far more numerous (or worse-off) without the safety net of universal health care.
  - refurb 13y ago
    The parent's argument was "A universal health care system would probably fix a lot of this" I rebutted with an example of a country with universal healthcare that still has a large homeless problem. I have no doubt that homeless residents of Vancouver have better access to healthcare. I'm just saying universal healthcare will NOT fix a lot of this.
    - timr 13y ago
      Your comment was not a rebuttal. It was a logical fallacy, and you haven't shown what you think you've shown ("universal healthcare will NOT fix a lot of this"). Canada's healthcare system could be making the situation in Vancouver much better than it otherwise would be. The OP can be correct, even if homelessness is getting worse in Vancouver.
      - refurb 13y ago
        I guess it depends on how you define "a lot of this". I took it to mean homelessness. If I am correct, then it was a rebuttal.
        kevmi 13y ago
        Hi refurb, Thanks for bringing up the point about the homelessness and the health care. Its a solid thought to bring to attention. Sincerely, Guy who does not give a shit if its a rebuttal or not :)
- sologoub 13y ago
  Article lists 2,650 people as the estimate of homeless in Vancouver, which has population of 603k people as of 2011. Compare that to Santa Monica, CA, where they estimate between 2300 and 3000 homeless, against a population of 90k people total as of 2011. (Source: http://www.opcc.net/tabid/255/Default.aspx http://www.opcc.net/tabid/255/Default.aspx) Clearly there is a difference in the orders of magnitude. Now, Santa Monica has well funded program to help, provide shelter, etc. The city is very safe and full of tourists, making even panhandling an ok way to make a living. All this definitely attracts more homeless, BUT, according to the article above 24% have mental issues and 54% have drug issues (the two overlap). If we could get 54% off the street, it would make a huge difference not only to them, but to the community. I for one don't enjoy being harassed when trying to enjoy my weekend at the beach. Unfortunately, this discussion is purely academic in nature. Long term homelessness is such a complex issue that there are no silver bullets. We can only hope to help on a case-by-case basis and an individual level. When I volunteered with a few organizations working with homeless, I was stunned to hear make talk about personal freedom they enjoy. To me that seemed almost incomprehensible, but to them it was plain as day - if they conform to the society, they will lose the freedom to do whatever they want... This perspective is often overlooked, but it is one our country is built upon - personal choice. We should always provide a way back to society, but if the person doesn't want it, and stays within the confines of the law, who are we to judge him/her for it.
bound008 13y ago
The nice thing about universal health care is that if you encounter someone who is homeless and seems mentally disturbed you can get an officer to admit them somewhere that will help rehabilitate that person back into society vs. trying to put them in jail for loitering or trespassing.
- anologwintermut 13y ago
  That assumes they want to be in a mental institution and deal with the restrictions the mental institution puts on them. That is not a valid assumption in all cases. Now, in some cases you can involuntarily commit people. However, the catch 22 is that in most of those cases, medications make them no longer a threat to themselves or others in a short amount of time and then the legal basis for holding them and compelling them to take medication vanishes. At which point, if they didn't want help in the first place, they leave and the cycle continues
lutusp 13y ago
> A universal health care system would probably fix a lot of this, as it should reduce the number of untreated mental disorders. The expression "reduce the number of untreated mental disorders" implies that there are treatments for mental disorders. There aren't. Talk therapy has been shown to be an example of the placebo effect, and the various drugs that exist have a checkered history, sometimes treating symptoms, but never treating causes. If a mental patient is given drugs that prevent the disease's symptoms from manifesting themselves, that's not a treatment, it's a palliative, and the drug therefore must be used forever (which makes the drug companies happy). Many of the most popular drugs have serious side effects including anomalous weight gain, diabetes and heart disease. In the long term, this may change as neuroscience takes over from psychiatry and psychology, a process that has begun in earnest, but that hasn't yet made a dent in the problem.

refurb 13y ago

Canada has universal healthcare yet the homeless problem in Vancouver is only getting worse. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_Vancouver http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homelessness_in_Vancouver

timr 13y ago
That's not a rebuttal to the parent's argument. For all we know, the homeless residents of Vancouver could be far more numerous (or worse-off) without the safety net of universal health care.
- refurb 13y ago
  The parent's argument was "A universal health care system would probably fix a lot of this" I rebutted with an example of a country with universal healthcare that still has a large homeless problem. I have no doubt that homeless residents of Vancouver have better access to healthcare. I'm just saying universal healthcare will NOT fix a lot of this.
  - timr 13y ago
    Your comment was not a rebuttal. It was a logical fallacy, and you haven't shown what you think you've shown ("universal healthcare will NOT fix a lot of this"). Canada's healthcare system could be making the situation in Vancouver much better than it otherwise would be. The OP can be correct, even if homelessness is getting worse in Vancouver.
    - refurb 13y ago
      I guess it depends on how you define "a lot of this". I took it to mean homelessness. If I am correct, then it was a rebuttal.
      - kevmi 13y ago
        Hi refurb, Thanks for bringing up the point about the homelessness and the health care. Its a solid thought to bring to attention. Sincerely, Guy who does not give a shit if its a rebuttal or not :)
sologoub 13y ago
Article lists 2,650 people as the estimate of homeless in Vancouver, which has population of 603k people as of 2011. Compare that to Santa Monica, CA, where they estimate between 2300 and 3000 homeless, against a population of 90k people total as of 2011. (Source: http://www.opcc.net/tabid/255/Default.aspx http://www.opcc.net/tabid/255/Default.aspx) Clearly there is a difference in the orders of magnitude. Now, Santa Monica has well funded program to help, provide shelter, etc. The city is very safe and full of tourists, making even panhandling an ok way to make a living. All this definitely attracts more homeless, BUT, according to the article above 24% have mental issues and 54% have drug issues (the two overlap). If we could get 54% off the street, it would make a huge difference not only to them, but to the community. I for one don't enjoy being harassed when trying to enjoy my weekend at the beach. Unfortunately, this discussion is purely academic in nature. Long term homelessness is such a complex issue that there are no silver bullets. We can only hope to help on a case-by-case basis and an individual level. When I volunteered with a few organizations working with homeless, I was stunned to hear make talk about personal freedom they enjoy. To me that seemed almost incomprehensible, but to them it was plain as day - if they conform to the society, they will lose the freedom to do whatever they want... This perspective is often overlooked, but it is one our country is built upon - personal choice. We should always provide a way back to society, but if the person doesn't want it, and stays within the confines of the law, who are we to judge him/her for it.

bound008 13y ago

The nice thing about universal health care is that if you encounter someone who is homeless and seems mentally disturbed you can get an officer to admit them somewhere that will help rehabilitate that person back into society vs. trying to put them in jail for loitering or trespassing.

anologwintermut 13y ago
That assumes they want to be in a mental institution and deal with the restrictions the mental institution puts on them. That is not a valid assumption in all cases. Now, in some cases you can involuntarily commit people. However, the catch 22 is that in most of those cases, medications make them no longer a threat to themselves or others in a short amount of time and then the legal basis for holding them and compelling them to take medication vanishes. At which point, if they didn't want help in the first place, they leave and the cycle continues

lutusp 13y ago

> A universal health care system would probably fix a lot of this, as it should reduce the number of untreated mental disorders. The expression "reduce the number of untreated mental disorders" implies that there are treatments for mental disorders. There aren't. Talk therapy has been shown to be an example of the placebo effect, and the various drugs that exist have a checkered history, sometimes treating symptoms, but never treating causes. If a mental patient is given drugs that prevent the disease's symptoms from manifesting themselves, that's not a treatment, it's a palliative, and the drug therefore must be used forever (which makes the drug companies happy). Many of the most popular drugs have serious side effects including anomalous weight gain, diabetes and heart disease. In the long term, this may change as neuroscience takes over from psychiatry and psychology, a process that has begun in earnest, but that hasn't yet made a dent in the problem.