4 ms·

I was kind of surprised by the operator saying "Are you the NSA?" "uh huh" rather than something more professional like "Yes sir, this is NSA." And then even m

by rdl 13y ago

I was kind of surprised by the operator saying "Are you the NSA?" "uh huh" rather than something more professional like "Yes sir, this is NSA." And then even more surprised that the operator was actually giving him helpful advice ("you should probably contact your email provider.") That was more helpful than most actual tech support employees I've interacted with, let alone PBX operators. And, being a dick to low-level pbx operators is kind of stupid, even if you disagree with the organization. Remember the Chick-Fil-A guy? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jg-jzlWcc0E http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jg-jzlWcc0E) I like gay people a lot, and am an atheist, but this guy does nothing but hurt his cause. (The only time I've ever called NSA/CSS was to get a full set of the Rainbow Books at age 12. It was weird how they'd only answer with phone extension.)

leokun 13y ago
> "I like gay people a lot" A little off topic from your post, but this is one of those gross generalizations that just actually portrays you as not getting the gist of the problem with bigotry. "gay people" are not a homogeneous group of like-minded people. Discrimination against sexual orientation or being transgendered is a sad and unfortunate injustice, but these are simply traits shared by a diverse set of people. In this world there is a wide range of many wonderful people and horrible people and everyone in between. The distribution of sexual preference has nothing to do with where they end up in that range. Each person is an individual actor, and not a representative for others who they may share a trait with, but when you say you "like gay people a lot" it is obvious you don't understand that. In fact, it seems kind of a bigoted, ignorant thing to say, even if you didn't mean to say anything mean.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- Tloewald 13y ago
  Clumsily said but the point - don't be a dick — is valid. I take it to mean "I have nothing against gay people although I don't really know any". It's funny because the opposite clumsy-ism is "some of my best friends are..." With the idea you can be a total douche towards some group but it's Ok because you're nice to the ones you actually know.
- chrischen 13y ago
  > A little off topic from your post, but this is one of those gross generalizations that just actually portrays you as not getting the gist of the problem with bigotry. leokun, he never stated that. I think you read too much into his statement. When people say "I like x a lot," they really mean "I like most of x a lot that I have met." Seeing as you probably don't know the guy/girl, you really can't say if he can legitimately form that opinion. Thought experiment: what if rdl has in fact met many gay people and liked them. Would you still call him a bigot for saying that? rdl was simply stating a fact. He should not be scolded for stating a fact of his personal preference. Gay people aren't homogeneous, but they do share similar traits (being attracted to men being only one of them). So it's not unlikely someone can like certain things about gay people as a whole. The argument that saying you "like gay people a lot" is bad is almost as inane as saying "I'm not racist—I don't see colors"—you'd be blatantly ignoring the uniqueness and distinctness of human peoples and ignoring the fact that it's not that we're not different, it's that we shouldn't treat each other unfairly because of inconsequential differences. Finally, "I like gay people a lot" is a subjective generalization. It's not really in your authority to judge what type of opinions he should or should not be forming because it is possible that he has met many many gay people and have liked them all. The statement by itself is not really harmful or insensitive, but I agree it can imply that the person who's saying it is naive about gay people and what they're like. That's probably where you saw the bigotry, but it was merely a projection. However, it's not proof that the he/she is naive about gay people. I think you made a logical mis-leap and inferred his bigotry from statements many actual bigots do make. The OP could either have been 1) Has not met many gay people. Therefore he is making a subjective generalization. But this doesn't affect anyone else but himself. 2) Has met many gay people and likes them. Therefore he is not really even making a generalization, but simply stating a fact of personal opinion. In neither of your cases is your scolding really warranted though, but what's even worse is you don't even know which case it is in the first place. You're also diverting attention from the real issues, and from real bigots by focusing on this, and encouraging people to focus on this.
smtddr 13y ago
>rdl said: >I like gay people a lot Sure you do, just like how Donald Trump said "I have a great relationship with the blacks"[1] 1. http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/04/14/trump-says-he-has-good-relationship-with-the-blacks/ http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/04/14/trump-says-h...
- rdl 13y ago
  It was specifically in the context of criticizing someone who would be widely perceived as pro-gay. As in "I mostly support the same issues as this guy, but he's hurting his cause." I'd be just as likely to say "I like black people, but <a notoriously criminal/amoral black guy> hurts the public image of black people and the cause of civil rights", sure. I'm fine with Trump comparisons except please the 1980s Trump, not the current one.
  - leokun 13y ago
    > I'd be just as likely to say "I like black people, but <a notoriously criminal/amoral black guy> hurts the public image of black people and the cause of civil rights", sure. Wow, I think you are hurting the cause that is your credibility.
    - rdl 13y ago
      Do you really think a member of a visible group acting badly doesn't hurt the overall image of that group? I agree individuals have every right to act as they please, but if you are the only e.g. Sikh in a Midwestern town, and no one there has ever met a Sikh, and you are a good person, people will generalize and believe Sikhs are good people. (This is why I as a white American in the Middle East would tip really well, be polite to everyone, help people who had broken down cars by the side of the road, etc.) If you are a political activist campaigning for a cause (which drive through guy was), and you aren't aware that people will make generalizations based on your behavior, you will not be an effective campaigner. This is why e.g. Mormon missionaries dress well, are polite and friendly, etc. If you are a member of a large group which is well represented in a population, you are less likely to be someone's only contact with that group, and thus generally less influential, but even then. This is why companies and organizations have policies about what members of that organization can do or say in uniform or when identifiable as a member, even when clearly off duty (so it couldn't be taken as an official statement).
Kenneth011 13y ago
For young people it is incredibly tough to find a job. Especially those transitioning from study to work with limited work experience. this site offers a way for young job seekers to stand out,.go to this site home tab for more detail ...>>>> JOBS4U.7.ly/6gn
marcosdumay 13y ago
Government bodies that don't have "interacting with the public" in their main objectives tend to react that way. When you call, you don't get routed to a low paid operator, but to a random employee without specific procedures for dealing with calls.
fnordfnordfnord 13y ago
A lot of people have a phone on their desk that can be reached directly from outside by dialing a specific number. Most people are not normally public-facing employees, so why would they waste their time with the whole "Thank you for calling, Smurfco. This is Sally, how may I help you?" I think a standard greeting would be poor OpSec for the NSA, since people could discover their unpublished numbers by dialing all the numbers.
anu_gupta 13y ago
I like white people a lot, and i'm glad most of them aren't like you.
- chrischen 13y ago
  Thought experiment: The OP's statement could be naive white-straight-male ignorance, and hint at background bigotry. But what still be just a hint, not proof. However, the OP could also be gay himself, and be able to legitimately say he likes gay people a lot (and prob not in the way a straight man likes another man). Would you still say what you just said if the latter is true?

by rdl 13y ago

leokun 13y ago

> "I like gay people a lot" A little off topic from your post, but this is one of those gross generalizations that just actually portrays you as not getting the gist of the problem with bigotry. "gay people" are not a homogeneous group of like-minded people. Discrimination against sexual orientation or being transgendered is a sad and unfortunate injustice, but these are simply traits shared by a diverse set of people. In this world there is a wide range of many wonderful people and horrible people and everyone in between. The distribution of sexual preference has nothing to do with where they end up in that range. Each person is an individual actor, and not a representative for others who they may share a trait with, but when you say you "like gay people a lot" it is obvious you don't understand that. In fact, it seems kind of a bigoted, ignorant thing to say, even if you didn't mean to say anything mean.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
Tloewald 13y ago
Clumsily said but the point - don't be a dick — is valid. I take it to mean "I have nothing against gay people although I don't really know any". It's funny because the opposite clumsy-ism is "some of my best friends are..." With the idea you can be a total douche towards some group but it's Ok because you're nice to the ones you actually know.
chrischen 13y ago
> A little off topic from your post, but this is one of those gross generalizations that just actually portrays you as not getting the gist of the problem with bigotry. leokun, he never stated that. I think you read too much into his statement. When people say "I like x a lot," they really mean "I like most of x a lot that I have met." Seeing as you probably don't know the guy/girl, you really can't say if he can legitimately form that opinion. Thought experiment: what if rdl has in fact met many gay people and liked them. Would you still call him a bigot for saying that? rdl was simply stating a fact. He should not be scolded for stating a fact of his personal preference. Gay people aren't homogeneous, but they do share similar traits (being attracted to men being only one of them). So it's not unlikely someone can like certain things about gay people as a whole. The argument that saying you "like gay people a lot" is bad is almost as inane as saying "I'm not racist—I don't see colors"—you'd be blatantly ignoring the uniqueness and distinctness of human peoples and ignoring the fact that it's not that we're not different, it's that we shouldn't treat each other unfairly because of inconsequential differences. Finally, "I like gay people a lot" is a subjective generalization. It's not really in your authority to judge what type of opinions he should or should not be forming because it is possible that he has met many many gay people and have liked them all. The statement by itself is not really harmful or insensitive, but I agree it can imply that the person who's saying it is naive about gay people and what they're like. That's probably where you saw the bigotry, but it was merely a projection. However, it's not proof that the he/she is naive about gay people. I think you made a logical mis-leap and inferred his bigotry from statements many actual bigots do make. The OP could either have been 1) Has not met many gay people. Therefore he is making a subjective generalization. But this doesn't affect anyone else but himself. 2) Has met many gay people and likes them. Therefore he is not really even making a generalization, but simply stating a fact of personal opinion. In neither of your cases is your scolding really warranted though, but what's even worse is you don't even know which case it is in the first place. You're also diverting attention from the real issues, and from real bigots by focusing on this, and encouraging people to focus on this.

smtddr 13y ago

>rdl said: >I like gay people a lot Sure you do, just like how Donald Trump said "I have a great relationship with the blacks"[1] 1. http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/04/14/trump-says-he-has-good-relationship-with-the-blacks/ http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/04/14/trump-says-h...

rdl 13y ago
It was specifically in the context of criticizing someone who would be widely perceived as pro-gay. As in "I mostly support the same issues as this guy, but he's hurting his cause." I'd be just as likely to say "I like black people, but <a notoriously criminal/amoral black guy> hurts the public image of black people and the cause of civil rights", sure. I'm fine with Trump comparisons except please the 1980s Trump, not the current one.
- leokun 13y ago
  > I'd be just as likely to say "I like black people, but <a notoriously criminal/amoral black guy> hurts the public image of black people and the cause of civil rights", sure. Wow, I think you are hurting the cause that is your credibility.
  - rdl 13y ago
    Do you really think a member of a visible group acting badly doesn't hurt the overall image of that group? I agree individuals have every right to act as they please, but if you are the only e.g. Sikh in a Midwestern town, and no one there has ever met a Sikh, and you are a good person, people will generalize and believe Sikhs are good people. (This is why I as a white American in the Middle East would tip really well, be polite to everyone, help people who had broken down cars by the side of the road, etc.) If you are a political activist campaigning for a cause (which drive through guy was), and you aren't aware that people will make generalizations based on your behavior, you will not be an effective campaigner. This is why e.g. Mormon missionaries dress well, are polite and friendly, etc. If you are a member of a large group which is well represented in a population, you are less likely to be someone's only contact with that group, and thus generally less influential, but even then. This is why companies and organizations have policies about what members of that organization can do or say in uniform or when identifiable as a member, even when clearly off duty (so it couldn't be taken as an official statement).

Kenneth011 13y ago

For young people it is incredibly tough to find a job. Especially those transitioning from study to work with limited work experience. this site offers a way for young job seekers to stand out,.go to this site home tab for more detail ...>>>> JOBS4U.7.ly/6gn

marcosdumay 13y ago

Government bodies that don't have "interacting with the public" in their main objectives tend to react that way. When you call, you don't get routed to a low paid operator, but to a random employee without specific procedures for dealing with calls.

fnordfnordfnord 13y ago

A lot of people have a phone on their desk that can be reached directly from outside by dialing a specific number. Most people are not normally public-facing employees, so why would they waste their time with the whole "Thank you for calling, Smurfco. This is Sally, how may I help you?" I think a standard greeting would be poor OpSec for the NSA, since people could discover their unpublished numbers by dialing all the numbers.

anu_gupta 13y ago

I like white people a lot, and i'm glad most of them aren't like you.

chrischen 13y ago
Thought experiment: The OP's statement could be naive white-straight-male ignorance, and hint at background bigotry. But what still be just a hint, not proof. However, the OP could also be gay himself, and be able to legitimately say he likes gay people a lot (and prob not in the way a straight man likes another man). Would you still say what you just said if the latter is true?