3 ms·

Comments like this are why hacker news is so frustrating now. It's a rant about TI calculators which doesn't address any of the points made in the article itse

Comments like this are why hacker news is so frustrating now. It's a rant about TI calculators which doesn't address any of the points made in the article itself, yet is sitting at the top of the comments. If you want to talk about TI calculators in general, write a blog post and post it here or something, but I don't see why this mostly-unrelated comment needs to dominate any discussion about the actual points being discussed in the article.

jacobolus 13y ago
Sorry. Let me try to make it relevant: (1) I think it’s great to give kids general-purpose tools for unstructured hacking. There’s enormous pedagogical value for every person in learning to think procedurally, break things down into parts, debug algorithms, and explore mathematical systems. Every teacher should read Mindstorms. (2) General purpose computers are nowadays really great for this, if the proper programming environments get set up on them. They have awesome screens for displaying neat graphics. They have reasonable keyboards for quickly typing in code and numbers and symbols. They have amazing CPUs and GPUs which can crunch numbers like nobody’s business. (3) I think we should start kids programming at age 5-8 with a tool like Scratch or Logo or I dunno what, but something designed and tested on children, with good sets of materials and curricula set up to teach them to do exploratory programming. (4) I think at some point students should be given tools which give them low-level access to hardware, like I dunno an Arduino or something. These things are getting to be $20-30 now, and it’s possible to use them for all sorts of nifty stuff and learn how to operate on constrained systems and twiddle bits in memory and whatever supposed advantage a TI calculator would offer, if that’s the goal. (5) Many people don’t use tablet computers (or other computers) in math courses in school in a very pedagogically sound way, and a lot of software used in schools is terrible. (Giving access to open-ended exploratory systems is much better than giving access to one-purpose constrained tools.) This is too bad, because big color multitouch displays are really nice input/output devices for many purposes. (6) It’s all well and good that the original author and many other people had a nice experience programming a TI calculator as a way to stave off boredom in math class, or whatever. But TI graphing calculators were overpriced and outdated and frankly pretty crappy relative to other devices people used 10 years ago, as long as we get the right software on those devices. By now it’s just ridiculous. Making people type BASIC into a calculator using tiny buttons and a little monochrome screen is not the right way to introduce mathematics, or programming, or anything else.
- dylangs1030 13y ago
  Regarding your 3), I think Python would be really good for this. Then they could graduate to C and lisp. Also, I strongly agree with your 6). A small, monochrome screen was very painful to look at on my TI-83 when I was in school. I hated it (I also programmed it, but didn't have nearly as much fun as the author..I didn't think it was that cool).
- jlgreco 13y ago
  (2) General purpose computers are nowadays really great for this, if the proper programming environments get set up on them. They have awesome screens for displaying neat graphics. They have reasonable keyboards for quickly typing in code and numbers and symbols. They have amazing CPUs and GPUs which can crunch numbers like nobody’s business. This has never really not been the case. The merits of calculator programming have always been despite (or arguably, because) of their technical inferiority.
- wowaname 13y ago
  In response to point six, TI made it so you didn't have to type out "if" or "end" over and over; there are tokens for each of those calls, and remembering the number shortcuts in the menu is fairly easy. It is painful to only be able to read seven lines of code, sixteen characters apiece, at the same time, and the scrolling is horrible, but it does a pretty good job at what it's supposed to do. And there are plenty ways to extend or change the functionality of the calculator to make it easier to use and more customisable.
- angersock 13y ago
  The 83 calculator was rugged, had great battery life, was programmable even in the simplest of ways, and basically kicked ass at its niche--remaining useful even through senior year of mechanical engineering at my college. I'm sorry it's not sexy and shiny, but the thing represents an excellent optimization for price, durability, speed, and utility. The fact is that the 83 is basically the AK47 of the calculator world--ugly, old, outdated, and utterly fantastic at what it sets out to do. You seem to overlook the fact that while we've got these great general-purpose tools for doing computation, the 83 is first and foremost a graphing calculator. It handles basic statistics quite well, handles graphing and intercepts okay, and as a bonus has a very simple and robust programming interface. Raspberry Pis and Arduinos and OLPCs are cool and all, but in terms of just giving kids the basic tools they need to solve adult problems soonest, they fail. EDIT: I'm not saying I think they still need to be $100 a pop--a design refresh to get them down to more modest prices wouldn't hurt, but still.
dylangs1030 13y ago
Hacker News patriotism is out of place here. There's nothing in the guidelines about what constitutes legitimate top comments. Hacker News uses a democratic system, where those who choose to vote dictate what the most visible comment is. Your expectation is narrow and doesn't reflect what the vocal majority want to see, evidently. It would appear most people appreciated his comment, in which case, who are you to dictate that should and should not be the top comment? If you want to read salient points about the article, make an excellent comment so it will be upvoted, or scroll down and read them. They're there. EDIT: I'd ask that if you downvote me, you at least comment on why you disagree. It's not like my opinion is just going to go away, guys.
- zokier 13y ago
  > I'd ask that if you downvote me, you at least comment on why you disagree. It's not like my opinion is just going to go away, guys. I guess the democratic voting system you so valiantly defended bites back.
rz2k 13y ago
The spirit of the article is compatible with explaining the virtues of general purpose computing. There are plenty of people who have drawn a distinction between devices that can be programmed and which encourage experimentation and creation as opposed to devices built for consuming or figuring out how to get a result within prescribed parameters. However, it cannot be ignored that Texas Instruments graphing calculators are not great examples of general purpose computers. To the contrary, they have become a signature example of rot within education. Students who would be sufficiently inspired to program a graphing calculator would also be sufficiently inspired to program on a Raspberry Pi which is orders of magnitude more capable, and at least $65 cheaper. The TI-84 is BAD at its core functionality. It performs badly when it comes to acting as a mathematical tool, or as a preview of what tools students might ever potentially use professionally or in higher level math courses. Second, it is a bad general purpose computer. And finally, because it is terribly over-priced, it is unnecessary burden on high school students, at a price that is only supported by cooperation from testing agencies that acts counter to the interests of students and counter to education in general. Is a TI graphing calculator a cute device, and does it inspire fetishization and nostalgia? Sure, why not. However, it is not acceptable that high school students in 2013 are compelled to buy technological relics that are not relevant to their education.

jacobolus 13y ago

Sorry. Let me try to make it relevant: (1) I think it’s great to give kids general-purpose tools for unstructured hacking. There’s enormous pedagogical value for every person in learning to think procedurally, break things down into parts, debug algorithms, and explore mathematical systems. Every teacher should read Mindstorms. (2) General purpose computers are nowadays really great for this, if the proper programming environments get set up on them. They have awesome screens for displaying neat graphics. They have reasonable keyboards for quickly typing in code and numbers and symbols. They have amazing CPUs and GPUs which can crunch numbers like nobody’s business. (3) I think we should start kids programming at age 5-8 with a tool like Scratch or Logo or I dunno what, but something designed and tested on children, with good sets of materials and curricula set up to teach them to do exploratory programming. (4) I think at some point students should be given tools which give them low-level access to hardware, like I dunno an Arduino or something. These things are getting to be $20-30 now, and it’s possible to use them for all sorts of nifty stuff and learn how to operate on constrained systems and twiddle bits in memory and whatever supposed advantage a TI calculator would offer, if that’s the goal. (5) Many people don’t use tablet computers (or other computers) in math courses in school in a very pedagogically sound way, and a lot of software used in schools is terrible. (Giving access to open-ended exploratory systems is much better than giving access to one-purpose constrained tools.) This is too bad, because big color multitouch displays are really nice input/output devices for many purposes. (6) It’s all well and good that the original author and many other people had a nice experience programming a TI calculator as a way to stave off boredom in math class, or whatever. But TI graphing calculators were overpriced and outdated and frankly pretty crappy relative to other devices people used 10 years ago, as long as we get the right software on those devices. By now it’s just ridiculous. Making people type BASIC into a calculator using tiny buttons and a little monochrome screen is not the right way to introduce mathematics, or programming, or anything else.

dylangs1030 13y ago
Regarding your 3), I think Python would be really good for this. Then they could graduate to C and lisp. Also, I strongly agree with your 6). A small, monochrome screen was very painful to look at on my TI-83 when I was in school. I hated it (I also programmed it, but didn't have nearly as much fun as the author..I didn't think it was that cool).
jlgreco 13y ago
(2) General purpose computers are nowadays really great for this, if the proper programming environments get set up on them. They have awesome screens for displaying neat graphics. They have reasonable keyboards for quickly typing in code and numbers and symbols. They have amazing CPUs and GPUs which can crunch numbers like nobody’s business. This has never really not been the case. The merits of calculator programming have always been despite (or arguably, because) of their technical inferiority.
wowaname 13y ago
In response to point six, TI made it so you didn't have to type out "if" or "end" over and over; there are tokens for each of those calls, and remembering the number shortcuts in the menu is fairly easy. It is painful to only be able to read seven lines of code, sixteen characters apiece, at the same time, and the scrolling is horrible, but it does a pretty good job at what it's supposed to do. And there are plenty ways to extend or change the functionality of the calculator to make it easier to use and more customisable.
angersock 13y ago
The 83 calculator was rugged, had great battery life, was programmable even in the simplest of ways, and basically kicked ass at its niche--remaining useful even through senior year of mechanical engineering at my college. I'm sorry it's not sexy and shiny, but the thing represents an excellent optimization for price, durability, speed, and utility. The fact is that the 83 is basically the AK47 of the calculator world--ugly, old, outdated, and utterly fantastic at what it sets out to do. You seem to overlook the fact that while we've got these great general-purpose tools for doing computation, the 83 is first and foremost a graphing calculator. It handles basic statistics quite well, handles graphing and intercepts okay, and as a bonus has a very simple and robust programming interface. Raspberry Pis and Arduinos and OLPCs are cool and all, but in terms of just giving kids the basic tools they need to solve adult problems soonest, they fail. EDIT: I'm not saying I think they still need to be $100 a pop--a design refresh to get them down to more modest prices wouldn't hurt, but still.

dylangs1030 13y ago

Hacker News patriotism is out of place here. There's nothing in the guidelines about what constitutes legitimate top comments. Hacker News uses a democratic system, where those who choose to vote dictate what the most visible comment is. Your expectation is narrow and doesn't reflect what the vocal majority want to see, evidently. It would appear most people appreciated his comment, in which case, who are you to dictate that should and should not be the top comment? If you want to read salient points about the article, make an excellent comment so it will be upvoted, or scroll down and read them. They're there. EDIT: I'd ask that if you downvote me, you at least comment on why you disagree. It's not like my opinion is just going to go away, guys.

zokier 13y ago
> I'd ask that if you downvote me, you at least comment on why you disagree. It's not like my opinion is just going to go away, guys. I guess the democratic voting system you so valiantly defended bites back.

rz2k 13y ago

The spirit of the article is compatible with explaining the virtues of general purpose computing. There are plenty of people who have drawn a distinction between devices that can be programmed and which encourage experimentation and creation as opposed to devices built for consuming or figuring out how to get a result within prescribed parameters. However, it cannot be ignored that Texas Instruments graphing calculators are not great examples of general purpose computers. To the contrary, they have become a signature example of rot within education. Students who would be sufficiently inspired to program a graphing calculator would also be sufficiently inspired to program on a Raspberry Pi which is orders of magnitude more capable, and at least $65 cheaper. The TI-84 is BAD at its core functionality. It performs badly when it comes to acting as a mathematical tool, or as a preview of what tools students might ever potentially use professionally or in higher level math courses. Second, it is a bad general purpose computer. And finally, because it is terribly over-priced, it is unnecessary burden on high school students, at a price that is only supported by cooperation from testing agencies that acts counter to the interests of students and counter to education in general. Is a TI graphing calculator a cute device, and does it inspire fetishization and nostalgia? Sure, why not. However, it is not acceptable that high school students in 2013 are compelled to buy technological relics that are not relevant to their education.