4 ms·

I agree with the idea that we should invest more in scientific research in this country. But the 18% considering leaving the country metric is insane. This is

I agree with the idea that we should invest more in scientific research in this country. But the 18% considering leaving the country metric is insane. This is like the percentage of people who claimed they were moving to Canada when Bush was reelected, and the percentage of people who said they were leaving the country when Obama was (re)elected. People talk big all the time when they're unhappy about something. EDIT: just to be clear, because a couple of the comments sound like maybe think I'm making the opposite point: I think the metric of "18%" considering to leave is a silly metric. I think that at any given time, even when research is "good" or "better than now", you're probably somewhere near that number, especially (as one of the commenters pointed out) a lot of people who do research in this country are from other countries. The only way we could actually derive meaning from this statistic would be to have a time-based reference (i.e. compare what percentage plan to leave this year vs. 5 vs. 10 years ago), or to switch the metric - measure how many people actually left last year vs. 5 years ago.

srebeck 13y ago
I agree. We should invest more in science and the metric's kind of insane. I bet more than 18% of people in ANY industry consider leaving the country for various reasons... Maybe the 18% referenced in article will leave the country with the fed-up 99% of the rest of the country...
batbomb 13y ago
Except for the fact that, you know, a move by a scientist would likely be a career move, and not through some misguided knee-jerk reaction. I work at a national lab. Half my coworkers, maybe more, are foreign. If we all got laid off, you could easily bet they'd go back to europe. If I got laid off, I'd either look for a different industry or look to Europe. I know several places I could drop into in Europe with a better success rate than trying to switch to a different lab in the US.
- mattzito 13y ago
  I'm not disagreeing with the fundamental point you're making: obviously a skilled professional is not just going to throw their hands up and bail for no reason. But I think that highly skilled professionals of all stripes grapple with frustration and consider changing locales, industries, etc. - and not that many actually do. I work in the tech industry in NY, and the number of times people I know (myself included) have said, "Man, the tech market here is (boring/too adtech based/too corporate/not worth the cost of living), we should move to (the bay area/austin/the middle of nowhere/the caribbean)" is huge. Very few of us have actually moved, because you become invested in a particular place, you like your lifestyle, you fear change, etc. Again, not that scientists can't leave - but the article (and the HN headline) throws up the statistic of 18% considering leaving like it means something tangible.
anigbrowl 13y ago
Scientists have much more portable skills than many other professions, they're very used to working in multinational teams, and a large number of scientists in the US come from other countries to begin with.
tedsanders 13y ago
I suspect it could be because so many scientists are foreign-born. If I traveled to a foreign country to do science research, and then got laid off, I'd certainly consider returning home. Also, considering a course of action is far from following through with it. I've considered all sorts of actions that I would never commit.
dekhn 13y ago
At least 40% of the people I went to (grad) school with were non-natives. Many of them (about half) went back to their home country (to get academic jobs, typically). So, it could simply be that the base rate of people leaving is 20% now, just like it was before, and the article is reporting on a non-issue. Then again, I left academic 6 years ago for the exact reasons listed- I wasn't able to spend my time doing science.
Florin_Andrei 13y ago
> they're unhappy about something emphasis added
pyre 13y ago
> the percentage of people who said they were leaving the country when Obama was (re)elected. I don't get this. Most of these people were presumably conservatives, that were unhappy with Obama's election, but at the same time, most of their ideological/political views would seem incompatible with living anywhere other than the US. [ I realize that this is probably horrible stereotyping, but I would be interested to talk to someone that held this view. ]
- mattzito 13y ago
  It is mostly a twitter joke that idiots said, along the lines with the (fairly small as an actual percentage of the american populace) who said, "Keep government out of my medicare!" (medicare is a government healthcare program). I was being more tongue in cheek than anything.
- vwinsyee 13y ago
  I remember having the same reaction, especially after hearing many conservatives "considering" emigration to Canada, a nation much more socialist and tolerant than the U.S.
TheZenPsycho 13y ago
How do you know they didn't leave?
cowcatcher 13y ago
18% is a small minority. The headline tries to make it sound like more by calling it "nearly a fifth" but a fifth isn't very much, either. How about this: 82% of American scientists have never considered moving to another country. That doesn't quite sound the same, does it? I wonder how many Chinese scientists have considered leaving? I'd bet it's more than 18%.

srebeck 13y ago

I agree. We should invest more in science and the metric's kind of insane. I bet more than 18% of people in ANY industry consider leaving the country for various reasons... Maybe the 18% referenced in article will leave the country with the fed-up 99% of the rest of the country...

batbomb 13y ago

Except for the fact that, you know, a move by a scientist would likely be a career move, and not through some misguided knee-jerk reaction. I work at a national lab. Half my coworkers, maybe more, are foreign. If we all got laid off, you could easily bet they'd go back to europe. If I got laid off, I'd either look for a different industry or look to Europe. I know several places I could drop into in Europe with a better success rate than trying to switch to a different lab in the US.

mattzito 13y ago
I'm not disagreeing with the fundamental point you're making: obviously a skilled professional is not just going to throw their hands up and bail for no reason. But I think that highly skilled professionals of all stripes grapple with frustration and consider changing locales, industries, etc. - and not that many actually do. I work in the tech industry in NY, and the number of times people I know (myself included) have said, "Man, the tech market here is (boring/too adtech based/too corporate/not worth the cost of living), we should move to (the bay area/austin/the middle of nowhere/the caribbean)" is huge. Very few of us have actually moved, because you become invested in a particular place, you like your lifestyle, you fear change, etc. Again, not that scientists can't leave - but the article (and the HN headline) throws up the statistic of 18% considering leaving like it means something tangible.

anigbrowl 13y ago

Scientists have much more portable skills than many other professions, they're very used to working in multinational teams, and a large number of scientists in the US come from other countries to begin with.

tedsanders 13y ago

I suspect it could be because so many scientists are foreign-born. If I traveled to a foreign country to do science research, and then got laid off, I'd certainly consider returning home. Also, considering a course of action is far from following through with it. I've considered all sorts of actions that I would never commit.

dekhn 13y ago

At least 40% of the people I went to (grad) school with were non-natives. Many of them (about half) went back to their home country (to get academic jobs, typically). So, it could simply be that the base rate of people leaving is 20% now, just like it was before, and the article is reporting on a non-issue. Then again, I left academic 6 years ago for the exact reasons listed- I wasn't able to spend my time doing science.

Florin_Andrei 13y ago

> they're unhappy about something emphasis added

pyre 13y ago

> the percentage of people who said they were leaving the country when Obama was (re)elected. I don't get this. Most of these people were presumably conservatives, that were unhappy with Obama's election, but at the same time, most of their ideological/political views would seem incompatible with living anywhere other than the US. [ I realize that this is probably horrible stereotyping, but I would be interested to talk to someone that held this view. ]

mattzito 13y ago
It is mostly a twitter joke that idiots said, along the lines with the (fairly small as an actual percentage of the american populace) who said, "Keep government out of my medicare!" (medicare is a government healthcare program). I was being more tongue in cheek than anything.
vwinsyee 13y ago
I remember having the same reaction, especially after hearing many conservatives "considering" emigration to Canada, a nation much more socialist and tolerant than the U.S.

TheZenPsycho 13y ago

How do you know they didn't leave?

cowcatcher 13y ago

18% is a small minority. The headline tries to make it sound like more by calling it "nearly a fifth" but a fifth isn't very much, either. How about this: 82% of American scientists have never considered moving to another country. That doesn't quite sound the same, does it? I wonder how many Chinese scientists have considered leaving? I'd bet it's more than 18%.