4 ms·

it would explain why Europe lags so far behind the US in tech startups The primary reason Europe lags behind is the substantial lack of investors & VC's. The

by Peroni 13y ago

it would explain why Europe lags so far behind the US in tech startups The primary reason Europe lags behind is the substantial lack of investors & VC's. The case highlighted by the author is typical of large corporates but if you look at any decent tech company in London for example, this case would sound ridiculous and extreme.

gringofyx 13y ago
Agree with the first bit. Doubtful about the second bit - beaurocracy seems to become magnified in London.
- Peroni 13y ago
  Magnified in large London corporates yes but there are only a tiny percentage of 'decent tech companies' that fit that criteria. I was referring to the likes of Facebook UK, Google, Badoo, Songkick, etc.
nakedrobot2 13y ago
It's not the lack of invetors and VCs in Europe - it is the lack of ability to invest in RISKY companies - the very definition of "startup". European investors are just bankers (with a few exceptions).
- illumen 13y ago
  lol. London does quite a lot of risky financial shit. Also you might have heard of a little company kicking the shit out of Intel... ARM. Based in Cambridge UK, that is also where most tech investments in Europe are happening (not London or Berlin). Also, Germany and Switzerland are much more quiet and private about investments. You won't hear about many of them. These days you can invest in a UK startup, and have the government pick up 100% of the tab if it fails. Not to mention insane tax breaks (100%+) for r&d and for exploiting patents. The UK already has crowd equity. If you get all your news from YC then you're probably stuck in the silly valley echo chamber.
  - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
    Don't developers in London get paid crap though? I've heard horror stories about ridiculously low London salaries here on Hackernews. Are the low salaries just because their is a surplus developer talent in the UK?
    - Peroni 13y ago
      It really depends on your definition of crap. London dev salaries range from £24k for absolute juniors to £120k+ for the top 2%. Contractors fare substantially better. In my recruiter days I placed a Python developer who had experience with a particular trading system on a contract with a large trading firm. His contract was £1,100 per day for 6 months. Keep in mind the other notable differences between here and the US such as free health care, a larger number of paid holidays etc.
      - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
        And a much higher cost of living...in London its insane.
        alexkus 13y ago
        How much you pay in London really depends on how/where you want to live. It's far cheaper if you're happy to spend an hour or more commuting each way. I need to earn £50k to cover just childcare costs and the mortgage (looking forward to both of those going down soon). I could sell up and buy a similar property 5 miles away and those costs would both halve. I could sell up and buy a similar property 10 miles away and have no mortgage at all. Neither of those would make us happier as a family (no matter how much I'd love to have no mortgage); we want to live where we're living now, so I just get on with it.
      - illumen 13y ago
        Yeah, that's definitely a possible rate. A high end one though. I think contract rates for Python devs average around 500/day ($772 USD). Base salary seems to average at 45-50k. Also bonuses. Bonuses in London can be 100% of salary or more. National health insurance is not really free in the UK... but UK contractors pay less tax than US ones generally. German freelancers get paid more, but pay more tax (and get more holidays). Developers outside of London can earn less, but many prefer it.
rdl 13y ago
Yeah, I didn't mean to say it was the sole reason or even a primary reason, but it's a contributing factor. The risk-averse culture (investment and employees), and lack of exemplars of successful entrepreneurs (vs. going into banking, government, etc.) is probably the biggest problem. I get the general perception top tier Sand Hill VCs are now willing to invest in Series B or later (and some Series A) in Europe. Costs have dropped, even in Europe, so you can get pretty far on $50-100k in savings for a seed round. So the big problem in the long term is probably risk-aversion in hiring, vs. raising money.

by Peroni 13y ago

gringofyx 13y ago

Agree with the first bit. Doubtful about the second bit - beaurocracy seems to become magnified in London.

Peroni 13y ago
Magnified in large London corporates yes but there are only a tiny percentage of 'decent tech companies' that fit that criteria. I was referring to the likes of Facebook UK, Google, Badoo, Songkick, etc.

nakedrobot2 13y ago

It's not the lack of invetors and VCs in Europe - it is the lack of ability to invest in RISKY companies - the very definition of "startup". European investors are just bankers (with a few exceptions).

illumen 13y ago
lol. London does quite a lot of risky financial shit. Also you might have heard of a little company kicking the shit out of Intel... ARM. Based in Cambridge UK, that is also where most tech investments in Europe are happening (not London or Berlin). Also, Germany and Switzerland are much more quiet and private about investments. You won't hear about many of them. These days you can invest in a UK startup, and have the government pick up 100% of the tab if it fails. Not to mention insane tax breaks (100%+) for r&d and for exploiting patents. The UK already has crowd equity. If you get all your news from YC then you're probably stuck in the silly valley echo chamber.
- seanmcdirmid 13y ago
  Don't developers in London get paid crap though? I've heard horror stories about ridiculously low London salaries here on Hackernews. Are the low salaries just because their is a surplus developer talent in the UK?
  - Peroni 13y ago
    It really depends on your definition of crap. London dev salaries range from £24k for absolute juniors to £120k+ for the top 2%. Contractors fare substantially better. In my recruiter days I placed a Python developer who had experience with a particular trading system on a contract with a large trading firm. His contract was £1,100 per day for 6 months. Keep in mind the other notable differences between here and the US such as free health care, a larger number of paid holidays etc.
    - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
      And a much higher cost of living...in London its insane.
      - alexkus 13y ago
        How much you pay in London really depends on how/where you want to live. It's far cheaper if you're happy to spend an hour or more commuting each way. I need to earn £50k to cover just childcare costs and the mortgage (looking forward to both of those going down soon). I could sell up and buy a similar property 5 miles away and those costs would both halve. I could sell up and buy a similar property 10 miles away and have no mortgage at all. Neither of those would make us happier as a family (no matter how much I'd love to have no mortgage); we want to live where we're living now, so I just get on with it.
    - illumen 13y ago
      Yeah, that's definitely a possible rate. A high end one though. I think contract rates for Python devs average around 500/day ($772 USD). Base salary seems to average at 45-50k. Also bonuses. Bonuses in London can be 100% of salary or more. National health insurance is not really free in the UK... but UK contractors pay less tax than US ones generally. German freelancers get paid more, but pay more tax (and get more holidays). Developers outside of London can earn less, but many prefer it.

rdl 13y ago

Yeah, I didn't mean to say it was the sole reason or even a primary reason, but it's a contributing factor. The risk-averse culture (investment and employees), and lack of exemplars of successful entrepreneurs (vs. going into banking, government, etc.) is probably the biggest problem. I get the general perception top tier Sand Hill VCs are now willing to invest in Series B or later (and some Series A) in Europe. Costs have dropped, even in Europe, so you can get pretty far on $50-100k in savings for a seed round. So the big problem in the long term is probably risk-aversion in hiring, vs. raising money.