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> That's false. Psycholgists and psychiatrists do not craft or test falsifiable scientific theories -- they publish descriptions without explanations. You know

> That's false. Psycholgists and psychiatrists do not craft or test falsifiable scientific theories -- they publish descriptions without explanations. You know nothing about the current state of psychological research and should stop posting.

lutusp 13y ago
> You know nothing about the current state of psychological research and should stop posting. A productive argument. You may be surprised to learn that the current director of the NIMH shares my views and is acting on them: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/elements/2013/05/the-scientific-backlash-against-the-dsm.html http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/elements/2013/05/the-s... Quote: "When Thomas Insel, the director of the National Institute of Mental Health, came out swinging with his critiques of the American Psychiatric Association’s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, a couple of weeks ago, longtime critics of psychiatry were shocked and gratified. Insel announced that that the D.S.M.’s diagnostic categories lacked validity, that they were not “based on any objective measures,” and that, “unlike our definitions of ischemic heart disease, lymphoma or AIDS,” which are grounded in biology, they were nothing more than constructs put together by committees of experts. America’s psychiatrist-in-chief seemed to be reiterating what many had been saying all along: that psychiatry was a pseudoscience, unworthy of inclusion in the medical kingdom." Maybe Insel should take your sage advice and "stop posting" as well. Or maybe you could learn a bit more about this topic.
- jessedhillon 13y ago
  You know, when you post links to the articles you quote from, people can read them and see if the opinions expressed support your thesis. In this case you're posting an article where the NIMH director wonders aloud whether a diagnostic manual hasn't become the proverbial territory itself. Much, much less strong of a claim than yours. Second, your original claim is that this research posted here today is empty, navel-gazing non-science. And still your efforts to show that this claim is true are also wanting, but not for a lack of heat and bluster.
  - lutusp 13y ago
    > In this case you're posting an article where the NIMH director wonders aloud whether a diagnostic manual hasn't become the proverbial territory itself. The director isn't merely "wonder[ing] aloud", has has announced his intention to phase out the DSM entirely, replace it with a more evidence-based approach, one that tries to explain, rather than merely describe. In other words, he's saying what I say in this thread. http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/elements/2013/05/the-scientific-backlash-against-the-dsm.html http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/elements/2013/05/the-s... Quote: "When Thomas Insel, the director of the National Institute of Mental Health, came out swinging with his critiques of the American Psychiatric Association’s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, a couple of weeks ago, longtime critics of psychiatry were shocked and gratified. Insel announced that that the D.S.M.’s diagnostic categories lacked validity, that they were not “based on any objective measures,” and that, “unlike our definitions of ischemic heart disease, lymphoma or AIDS,” which are grounded in biology, they were nothing more than constructs put together by committees of experts. America’s psychiatrist-in-chief seemed to be reiterating what many had been saying all along: that psychiatry was a pseudoscience, unworthy of inclusion in the medical kingdom." In case you're wondering how the current discussion conflates the DSM, a mere book, with psychiatry and psychology, large established fields, it's because the DSM is to psychiatry and psychology what the Standard Model is to physics -- it represents a distillation of research efforts spanning decades. Therefore to reject the DSM is to reject psychiatry and psychology as serious science. > ... your original claim is that this research posted here today is empty, navel-gazing non-science. I suggest that you limit yourself to things I've actually said. But, without either producing a new, empirical, testable theory, or comparing the outcome to an existing theory, the article can only describe the sort of instantly forgettable observation that plagues modern psychological research. That's what's wrong with modern psychological research -- it doesn't lead to consensus, to established principles, principles that might turn psychology into a science.
- GrinningFool 13y ago
  > You may be surprised to learn that the current director of the NIMH shares my views and is acting on them: Appeal to authority does not make a valid argument. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with your position here - only pointing out that repeatedly posting that the NIMH director agrees with you doesn't lend credence to your arguments.
  - lutusp 13y ago
    >> You may be surprised to learn that the current director of the NIMH shares my views and is acting on them > Appeal to authority does not make a valid argument. Then it's a good thing I didn't make an appeal to authority. My reason for mentioning the director's position and actions is because this issue has a political dimension as well as a technical one. By addressing the ongoing political changes, the director's comments add substance to the discussion, not to any imagined intellectual authority. If I say that psychology isn't a science, reference to the views of the director of the NIMH is hardly worthwhile. If I say that society is abandoning psychiatry and psychology, the same reference is immensely relevant. > ... repeatedly posting that the NIMH director agrees with you doesn't lend credence to your arguments. Only if I don't argue that psychiatry and psychology are being abandoned for cause, something I say regularly. And finally, in a thread that includes such non-arguments as "you should stop posting", the fact that others share my views is entirely germane.

lutusp 13y ago

> You know nothing about the current state of psychological research and should stop posting. A productive argument. You may be surprised to learn that the current director of the NIMH shares my views and is acting on them: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/elements/2013/05/the-scientific-backlash-against-the-dsm.html http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/elements/2013/05/the-s... Quote: "When Thomas Insel, the director of the National Institute of Mental Health, came out swinging with his critiques of the American Psychiatric Association’s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, a couple of weeks ago, longtime critics of psychiatry were shocked and gratified. Insel announced that that the D.S.M.’s diagnostic categories lacked validity, that they were not “based on any objective measures,” and that, “unlike our definitions of ischemic heart disease, lymphoma or AIDS,” which are grounded in biology, they were nothing more than constructs put together by committees of experts. America’s psychiatrist-in-chief seemed to be reiterating what many had been saying all along: that psychiatry was a pseudoscience, unworthy of inclusion in the medical kingdom." Maybe Insel should take your sage advice and "stop posting" as well. Or maybe you could learn a bit more about this topic.

jessedhillon 13y ago
You know, when you post links to the articles you quote from, people can read them and see if the opinions expressed support your thesis. In this case you're posting an article where the NIMH director wonders aloud whether a diagnostic manual hasn't become the proverbial territory itself. Much, much less strong of a claim than yours. Second, your original claim is that this research posted here today is empty, navel-gazing non-science. And still your efforts to show that this claim is true are also wanting, but not for a lack of heat and bluster.
- lutusp 13y ago
  > In this case you're posting an article where the NIMH director wonders aloud whether a diagnostic manual hasn't become the proverbial territory itself. The director isn't merely "wonder[ing] aloud", has has announced his intention to phase out the DSM entirely, replace it with a more evidence-based approach, one that tries to explain, rather than merely describe. In other words, he's saying what I say in this thread. http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/elements/2013/05/the-scientific-backlash-against-the-dsm.html http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/elements/2013/05/the-s... Quote: "When Thomas Insel, the director of the National Institute of Mental Health, came out swinging with his critiques of the American Psychiatric Association’s Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, a couple of weeks ago, longtime critics of psychiatry were shocked and gratified. Insel announced that that the D.S.M.’s diagnostic categories lacked validity, that they were not “based on any objective measures,” and that, “unlike our definitions of ischemic heart disease, lymphoma or AIDS,” which are grounded in biology, they were nothing more than constructs put together by committees of experts. America’s psychiatrist-in-chief seemed to be reiterating what many had been saying all along: that psychiatry was a pseudoscience, unworthy of inclusion in the medical kingdom." In case you're wondering how the current discussion conflates the DSM, a mere book, with psychiatry and psychology, large established fields, it's because the DSM is to psychiatry and psychology what the Standard Model is to physics -- it represents a distillation of research efforts spanning decades. Therefore to reject the DSM is to reject psychiatry and psychology as serious science. > ... your original claim is that this research posted here today is empty, navel-gazing non-science. I suggest that you limit yourself to things I've actually said. But, without either producing a new, empirical, testable theory, or comparing the outcome to an existing theory, the article can only describe the sort of instantly forgettable observation that plagues modern psychological research. That's what's wrong with modern psychological research -- it doesn't lead to consensus, to established principles, principles that might turn psychology into a science.
GrinningFool 13y ago
> You may be surprised to learn that the current director of the NIMH shares my views and is acting on them: Appeal to authority does not make a valid argument. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with your position here - only pointing out that repeatedly posting that the NIMH director agrees with you doesn't lend credence to your arguments.
- lutusp 13y ago
  >> You may be surprised to learn that the current director of the NIMH shares my views and is acting on them > Appeal to authority does not make a valid argument. Then it's a good thing I didn't make an appeal to authority. My reason for mentioning the director's position and actions is because this issue has a political dimension as well as a technical one. By addressing the ongoing political changes, the director's comments add substance to the discussion, not to any imagined intellectual authority. If I say that psychology isn't a science, reference to the views of the director of the NIMH is hardly worthwhile. If I say that society is abandoning psychiatry and psychology, the same reference is immensely relevant. > ... repeatedly posting that the NIMH director agrees with you doesn't lend credence to your arguments. Only if I don't argue that psychiatry and psychology are being abandoned for cause, something I say regularly. And finally, in a thread that includes such non-arguments as "you should stop posting", the fact that others share my views is entirely germane.