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There is an extremely simple solution: leave. I've not lived in the US for almost two years now. I've only had to travel back twice in that time. Meanwhile, in

There is an extremely simple solution: leave. I've not lived in the US for almost two years now. I've only had to travel back twice in that time. Meanwhile, in the same time I've visited France, Belgium, the Netherlands, and Germany multiple times. None of those travel experiences were nearly as unpleasant or stressful as my two trips to the US. Furthermore, the technology communities that are growing up in these places have a vigor and sense of excitement that rivals or even surpasses anything you'll find in Silicon Valley.

veidr 13y ago
Yeah, I left too. I've lived in a couple parts of Europe and then Japan since leaving. All of them feel more "free" than post-Bush (I guess I really mean post-Bin Laden) USA; people enjoy more civil rights, and (more pragmatically) more freedom from idiotic hassle in the name of... whatever kind of fuckery it is that keeps the prison lobby, the TSA, and the general industrial-fearmongering complex in business and free of logical constraints. But, leaving is not really a simple solution, at all. It is both complex and unsatisfying. Thankfully, my wife and kid are with me (and btw, compared to Japan, the USA seems like a completely insane place to raise a kid) but I still have family there, not to mention friends, business interests, tax obligations, etc. I feel like my country is occupied by an enemy force, and that feeling is hammered home every single time I fly home, within minutes of deplaning.
- FedRegister 13y ago
  The rampant xenophobia in Japan is what keeps me from moving there. You mean even if I becomes a naturalized citizen (an ordeal in itself) that most places will still treat me like a foreigner? No thanks. The US is occupied by an enemy force that they supported and elected. Every time another basic human right is violated by the legislative and executive branch those cheer. Does it matter that drunk driving kills more people per year in the US than acts of terror? Does it matter that more people die from prescription drug dispensation mistakes? Not to the mind of the scared American.
  - adrinavarro 13y ago
    Rampant xenowhat? Yes. It's very different to what you get, for example, in Australia. Or most parts of Europe. Yes, you'll probably be a gaijin forever, even if you get naturalized (and renounce to your other nationality). But there's a huge difference between what the japanese are, and have always been, and xenophobia. Of course you get a different treatment unless you show them what you know and your respect, but it boils down to the kind of society it is and the fact that you're, at first sight, different from them. But different, not worse.
  - pwim 13y ago
    Japan isn't any more xenophobic than the US. I've lived seven years in Japan. Even if I were to get Japanese citizenship, I wouldn't identify myself culturally as Japanese (and neither would Japanese think of me as Japanese). Countries like the US separate cultural identity and citizenship, so having citizenship but still being seen as a foreigner might seem a bit strange at first. On the other hand, if I was to go to the US, there are certain cultural identities I could never have. For instance, as a white guy, I could never be treated as an African American, no matter how much I wanted to be or tried.
    - rjbwork 13y ago
      > For instance, as a white guy, I could never be treated as an African American, no matter how much I wanted to be or tried. This hasn't stopped a great many white guys from trying!
raverbashing 13y ago
I agree with the general spirit of your post, however: Amsterdam Schipol has (a lot of) scanning machines as well. Germany has more freedom in certain areas and less freedom in others. (you can't take your empty bottles to the recycling bins on Sunday for example)
- VMG 13y ago
  of all the things bothering me about Germany, this is not one of them. More the fact that nearly all shops close at 8pm and everything is closed on sunday.
  - nodata 13y ago
    It introduces a different mentality: you have to do something other than shop.
    - bane 13y ago
      As an international traveler that for some reason ends up arriving in Germany Sundays, let me assure you, it sucks to high heaven that I can't get something to eat or drink easily.
      - Derbasti 13y ago
        Restaurants, bakeries, gas stations, and everything at airports or train stations is open on sundays in Germany.
        bane 13y ago
        Last time I went to Germany was...2009? I grabbed something to go at the airport and hit the road for my destination in central Bavaria. After I checked into my hotel, I hit six entire towns where everything was closed. It was around 6-7pm on a Sunday. Which is a hugely popular eating out time for families in the States. I finally found a Kebab place that was open and stuffed myself to the gills I was so starved. The rest of the week was perfectly fine. The next Sunday? Same thing, only I made sure to have a couple pre-made sandwiches in my hotel room and some breakfast meats I stored in the fridge from breakfast the previous day. As a traveler, Germany on Sundays simply sucks.
amirmc 13y ago
Airports are only a symptom of a wider problem and I see this as running away. Much like when a bear is chasing you, you only have to be faster than those around you. Eventually the bear will chase you again and you'll be the only one left. To make that a little more concrete, you can only keep moving while there are viable places to move to. Sure, that's probably fine for our lifetimes but we're handing on a legacy where we refuse to fight for anything. When these machines and processes are everywhere they become even harder to fight against. Edit: Also, moving when you have family (partner, kids), becomes even more complex and stressful. It's simply not a viable option for many.
- jballanc 13y ago
  I'd like to replace your bear with a pendulum. History has shown that public sentiment towards authoritarianism is cyclical. Certainly Nazi Germany represented an authoritarian regime that was more repressive than the current US government (history will tell how long this remains true...), but that played out. Now Germany has a wonderful framework of laws and regulations to guard personal privacy. What leaving does is control how far the pendulum swings. Imagine if Fermi hadn't left Italy? Or consider Lise Meitner who didn't leave Germany when everyone else did (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lise_Meitner http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lise_Meitner). In her words, "It was not only stupid but also very wrong that I did not leave at once."
  - amirmc 13y ago
    > "Now Germany has a wonderful framework of laws and regulations to guard personal privacy." The part you're conveniently forgetting is at what cost? Sure, the pendulum may swing back the other way eventually but how many lives are going to be destroyed during these unnecessary oscillations.
    - r00fus 13y ago
      Reminds me of a Keynes quote: "Markets can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent." In this case, the pendulum can remain autocratic far longer than your life is worth it - if you feel that fighting is not possible, perhaps the best move is to worry about your own (family's) safety first.
rbanffy 13y ago
> There is an extremely simple solution: leave. Actually, it's not a solution. If everyone who questions such ineffective and intrusive procedures leave, the ones who imposed them on your fellow citizens win. It's not my country, but I like it a lot. And it deeply saddens me to see what is happening to it.
- javert 13y ago
  Actually, if we could get 50% of all engineers and technophiles to flee the US, the insanity would have to stop. (How would they continue to pay for it?) May not be a terrible strategy going forward if the US starts looking like an end-stage Weimer Republic, especially since people will have to flee anyway.
  - rbanffy 13y ago
    Keep in mind it's an end-stage Weimar Republic with huge military power and operational nukes.
    - javert 13y ago
      Well, it isn't yet an end-stage Weimer Republic. I'm just saying that it could forseeably, possibly get there. And while the US could implement many aspects of fascism (particularly government control of industry that is nomially help privately, which is alredy the case for telecom), a war for global domination is not likely one of them.
  - thaumaturgy 13y ago
    > Actually, if we could get 50% of all engineers and technophiles to flee the US, the insanity would have to stop. On the contrary, I'd expect it to worsen. Engineers and technophiles are some of the most outspoken groups opposed to the surveillance state and other abuses of power, especially technological ones. They're also the groups most likely to invent technological workarounds to abuses of power. > How would they continue to pay for it? The same way it's being paid for now: massive debt.
honzzz 13y ago
This might sound really weird but I actually believe that for people who like freedom post-communist countries that were NOT part of Soviet Union can be quite good place to live right now. I had previously spent 7 months in the US and I had lived in UK for 2.5 years and now I live in the Czech Republic. I guess this is very subjective but I believe that for example this country currently offers way more freedom than the "land of free" or UK. It has its downsides but not as many as an average citizen of western country would probably think. You could live pretty comfortable "nice apartment, designer clothes and BMW" life in Prague if you wish so (not that I do). It's not how Americans usually imagine Eastern Europe and because of the past people are more sensitive about government intrusion and the government is weak - do not conflate Eastern Europe with Russia with that weird authoritarian shit (the anti-gay law etc.) - this is completely different world here. Just my $0.02 - it's about personal priorities. And it still feels weird just saying this... given what I thought 25 years ago. EDIT: I should not have said 'countries that were NOT part of Soviet Union' - certainly not all of them, for example I hear really nice things about Estonia and I am sure that not all ex-Soviet countries are like Russia.
- varjag 13y ago
  A good deal of Eastern Europe is still quite homophobic and xenophobic, even if there are no actual discrimination laws in place.
  - LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
    true. So is the rest of the world. We are just lacking in the political correctness department.
    - varjag 13y ago
      ..and Russians are just putting what you are lacking into a law.
      - LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
        I think that Russia today is closer in terms of crazy laws they put in place to the US than to Poland.
mosburger 13y ago
"Extremely simple?" There's lots of reasons it isn't so simple for people. 1) Barriers to work and emigration 2) Language barriers - I know that learning a new language isn't impossible (I know a little Spanish but I'd hardly call myself fluent), but I speak only English fluently, which limits me to a handful of nations, many of which are nearly as bad as the United States (hey UK, how are those surveillance cameras?) 3) A lot of us have family support systems that aren't easy to give up - I happen to know who you are, and happen to know that the country to which you moved didn't have that problem. ;) I know it's not impossible - I follow /r/IWantOut over on Reddit because I have my own fantasies about leaving the U.S. and maybe moving to a Spanish-speaking country with liberal emigration policies (perhaps Uruguay?). But it's not something I feel like I can put my family through at this time - it's definitely not what I'd call "extremely simple."
- madaxe 13y ago
  It's extremely simple. You just pull your finger out and do it. I've hopped continent four times so far in my life, and have no intention of stopping. Sure, family, ties, etc., but it's not like you can't visit them, and languages you learn on the go. People are patient. Anyway. Better to go now, than to wait for them to take your passports away.
  - RDeckard 13y ago
    Simple in your context is the act itself without considering all the repercussions that mosburger mentioned.
  - goatforce5 13y ago
    I'm on my fourth country, but only my third continent. But my feet sure are getting itchy of late. Moving country is real easy. It's something everyone should try for at least a year or two.
    - voltagex_ 13y ago
      Heh. I'm in a wheelchair. I still haven't done a completely independent trip overseas, but I'm working on it. I guess that'll be an interesting blog when I do. Real easy is something that only happens when your circumstances fall into some kind of normal bounds.
ohwp 13y ago
Maybe even simpler: stay, don't fly. The best solutions would be that all passengers refuse to take the scan.
- eloisius 13y ago
  That's not a solution, unless you mean 'never go anywhere.' TSA is expanding into more modes of transportation [1]. Unchecked, you'd soon see them at every train station, bus terminal and eventually intervals of the interstate. [1]: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/06/us/tsa-expands-duties-beyond-airport-security.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/06/us/tsa-expands-duties-beyo...
outworlder 13y ago
Leaving your own country is never "simple".
- astrodust 13y ago
  Maybe if you're a loner with no friends or attachments, sure. Most people have lives. If you've ever seen people struggling to get by in what looks like a bombed out hellhole, remember this. People in Zimbabwe, Lebanon, and even Detroit are suffering, but only because for them the alternative is even worse: Being disconnected.
rorrr2 13y ago
How is that a solution? If you're about to take a flight, you already spent a bunch of money, which usually means you really want or need to get to your destination. Leaving doesn't solve anything. You think TSA gives a crap? No, they get paid either way. You think airlines give a crap? No, they already got your money, and now they have an empty seat that they can resell (via the overbooking process). The real solution is to sue.
- colkassad 13y ago
  I think he meant moving out of the US, not leaving the airport and going home.
anExcitedBeast 13y ago
I know hacker news doesn't generally appreciate comments like this, but moving to Europe is the last thing you want to do if your objection is based on the political theory of individual liberty. Practically speaking the US is losing respect for personal freedom, but at least there's a legal framework and founding ideal for it here.
- jballanc 13y ago
  If your rely on rules to maintain order, bad actors will figure out how to "game the system". If you rely on people to maintain order, bad actors will bribe and corrupt those in charge. The US has traditionally relied more on rules, and you are correct in citing that the US Constitution and Bill of Rights still represent the most comprehensive set of rules in the world guarding personal freedom. In turn, you also have "enemy combatants", "extraordinary rendition", "enhanced interrogation techniques", "national security letters", and "corporate personhood" that all represent ways in which people have gamed the system. Rules, alone, are not enough. You also need people. (Consequently, where I live now there has always been much greater reliance on people over rules, and as such corruption is a major problem... Striking the right balance can be difficult.)
- jwr 13y ago
  Could you elaborate on why you believe European countries to have no legal framework for individual liberty? (if I understood your statement correctly) This is an honest question — I believe things to be exactly the opposite, but I'll correct my belief if I'm wrong.
beedogs 13y ago
I left. I live in Australia now. It wasn't a simple solution or an easy decision. They just rammed through millimeter-wave machines here, too. And you can't opt out. http://travelsecure.infrastructure.gov.au/bodyscanners/faq.aspx#e http://travelsecure.infrastructure.gov.au/bodyscanners/faq.a...
- skeletonjelly 13y ago
  Oh boy! I'm flying overseas soon for the first time in about 7 or 8 years. Does this imply they have backscatter and there's no alternative? I'm guessing this is at every international airport? I see it's random? Sorry I'd rather ask somebody who's been there then misread the carefully crafted Q&A.
- minor_nitwit 13y ago
  I don't understand the Australian impulse to push this technology when they are under a very low if not non-existent threat. When I was there I was 'wanded' multiple times.
  - beedogs 13y ago
    I tend to think they were strong-armed into it.
Vivtek 13y ago
Yeah - re-entering the US is feeling more and more like entering an armed compound. I distinctly don't like it.
LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
Don't leave. Fight. They do it because there is no reaction to their actions. Right there when waiting you should have called your attorney. What I would do: tell them they let me go or I call my attorney who'll shortly come and sue them for violating my constitutional rights.
dpatru 13y ago
Rather than leave, the better solution is to force the rights-violators to stop. They are the ones in the wrong, they should be ashamed and shamed. This reminds me of the NSA recruitment session at the University of Washington (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVIHvbYYxJo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVIHvbYYxJo) where the NSA agent tried to tell a skeptical student that she should not keep asking embarrassing questions, because even if an NSA job was not right for her, she should not prevent other students from joining the agency. In other words, it's fine to disagree with turning your country into a police state, you don't have to join the secret police, but don't interfere with your fellow citizens who want to profit from joining the police force. "when bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." --Edmund Burke
mherdeg 13y ago
Do you happen to know — what happens if you try to decline to enter the full-body-scanners at AMS? Does Schiphol also have a "pat down option" like the TSA offers? Thinking of other European countries, in the UK, signs at Gatwick say that if you are selected for a full-body scan and decline to use the machine, you will not be allowed to travel.
- schoen 13y ago
  The use of the full-body scanners at Schiphol is optional. The agents there are not very well-trained about this fact but people do normally succeed in opting out. For example, I succeeded after OHM earlier this month, though I was given more push-back than when opting out in the U.S. Here is a Dutch government site about the scanners confirming that travelers are allowed to opt out: http://english.nctv.nl/themes_en/themes-a-z/Security_and_civil_aviation/Security_Scan/FAQ_3.aspx http://english.nctv.nl/themes_en/themes-a-z/Security_and_civ...
aneth5 13y ago
If your singular judge of freedom and human rights is the annoyances of the TSA, there is a small chance this enormous decision may solve your concern. If you have other concerns, you're likely to be sadly disappointed by overt corruption, intolerance, censorship, extreme taxation, or other ways your freedom can be violated. It's not at all that simple.
pinaceae 13y ago
as someone who recently moved TO the US - you are delusional. as if there is a magic, fairy place that is freedom and liberty and pixies. Asia? good luck, the individual has awesome rights, try talking badly about the thai royalty for example. go on, please do. Europe? Just moved from there, great place. But if you're looking for the right to act out your individual freedom (which ends where it impacts the freedom of ours), then you're in for a suprise. US constitution does not apply there. No amendments. No pleading the fifth or other stuff. Maybe Somalia is the place for you. No one will force you through a milliwave scanner there.
- jpwagner 13y ago
  it's a shame that you draw a comparison between liberty and magic.
- 3pt14159 13y ago
  Just off the top of my head, countries that are both freer and less insane: Canada, The Netherlands, Norway, Iceland, New Zealand, Singapore, Estonia, Latvia, Switzerland. Freer in terms of personal freedom, civil rights, economic freedom. In the US you have: 1. Forced to sign up for the draft. 2. Your "Army Reserves" and "National Guard" DEPLOYED to fun places like Afghanistan on a rotating schedule. No they did not agree to it, reserves are meant to defend a country when it is attacked, not to be pulled into a regional conflicts. Canada for example, has reserves, but they arn't in Afghanistan unless they volunteer to. 3. Every call and email monitored. 4. A militarized police state. 5. Massive hidden intelligence budgets. 6. Drug sales by intelligence forces. 7. 5% of GDP just on the military, let alone "intelligence" and "security" (NSA / CIA / TSA / etc). 8. Private prisons with bribed judges. 9. 1% of men in jail, CURRENTLY (with more on parole). 10. 0.5% of women in jail. 11. Domestic drones. 12. Laws against using cryptography without registering it with the NSA. 13. The most aggressive fingerprint collection system out of any country in the world. 14. Unbearable licensing for alcohol, firearms, businesses, hair dressers (state dependent). 15. Project mockingbird (seriously wtf is the point of a "free press" if your own CIA has infiltrated it). 16. A do not fly list that has millions of people on it none of which can contest the reasons why. This is made worse since it was held up by the courts (under the guise that they can always take a train). In Canada we have less than a thousand people and there is a mechanism for challenging it. America only feels free while you are there and under the radar.
outside1234 13y ago
Is simple the right answer (and moving abroad is NOT simple)? I did just that with the Bush years - first to London then to Singapore. Obama convinced me to come back (I know) - but I don't have the same feeling now that he's betrayed us as well. We have to stay and fight. We need more than one of a hundred of us being as brave as the poster. We need it to be clear that we are going to vote anyone out that keeps this apparatus running unchanged. Leaving just makes it easy to dismiss us.
toddmorey 13y ago
I prefer Oren's approach: writing about the experience—provoking discussion, even outrage, and eventually change. I've lived overseas many times, but my simple advice when making life choices is to ask yourself wether you are running _to_ something (an amazing opportunity) or _away_ from something else. Advocating for change takes stamina and patience. There are many good reasons to leave the US. And, like other nations, the US has some large and seemingly unsolvable problems. I just don't believe that the current state of airport security is immutable. I'll concede that 9/11 had far-reaching impacts, predicated on our own fears and overreactions. What I won't concede is my home.
deleted 13y ago
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joshdance 13y ago
Seems like a defeatist attitude. Person 1 - "point out problem that should be fixed". Person 2 - "give up".
alan_cx 13y ago
It would be quite a wheeze if countries started offering American (and UK) citizens political asylum, and favorable conditions. Long been said that the US is a brain drain for other countries, well, reverse it. Perhaps that could be a great way for us to protest. If lots of US and UK (Aussies? Kiwis? Canadians?) citizens/subjects applied for political asylum in countries like Russia, would that send a message? At the very least, it would be bloody amusing!!!
aclevernickname 13y ago
> There is an extremely simple solution: leave. I did exactly that during the second term of Bush Jr. Left for Canada, and haven't been back since. The longer I'm gone, the more I don't want to go back. I miss my guns, but I'd miss my rights more. My relatives have to experience egregious security checks while coming to visit me, but once they're here, their human rights are respected. Many of them (NRA members, even) are thinking of moving here for good.
larrys 13y ago
"There is an extremely simple solution: leave." So to be clear you think it's simpler to leave the country rather than go through a machine?
gmuslera 13y ago
Leaving is a short term solution. A lot of countries are scalating in surveillance because there is the perception that US is trying to desestabilize a lot of governments with this disclosed programs. And, of course, could be for real, so the country where you land could eventually be desestabilized in a few years, and things will get ugly (look at middle east for a hint). And, as a foreigner. your privacy on the global internet is ensured to not be respected by US intelligence agencies, at all. Not that it would make a difference in a few years, but still is something to take into account. The only place on the world where you can have a chance to revert this trend is US, staying, voting, being active, chances are pretty slim, but better than the zero you get if are outside.
pbreit 13y ago
Not "simple" and certainly not "extremely simple".
chris_wot 13y ago
You're joking. There's nothing simple about leaving a country of which you are a citizen! Besides, if you don't like something in a democracy, you work towards changing it. You don't just up and leave.

veidr 13y ago

Yeah, I left too. I've lived in a couple parts of Europe and then Japan since leaving. All of them feel more "free" than post-Bush (I guess I really mean post-Bin Laden) USA; people enjoy more civil rights, and (more pragmatically) more freedom from idiotic hassle in the name of... whatever kind of fuckery it is that keeps the prison lobby, the TSA, and the general industrial-fearmongering complex in business and free of logical constraints. But, leaving is not really a simple solution, at all. It is both complex and unsatisfying. Thankfully, my wife and kid are with me (and btw, compared to Japan, the USA seems like a completely insane place to raise a kid) but I still have family there, not to mention friends, business interests, tax obligations, etc. I feel like my country is occupied by an enemy force, and that feeling is hammered home every single time I fly home, within minutes of deplaning.

FedRegister 13y ago
The rampant xenophobia in Japan is what keeps me from moving there. You mean even if I becomes a naturalized citizen (an ordeal in itself) that most places will still treat me like a foreigner? No thanks. The US is occupied by an enemy force that they supported and elected. Every time another basic human right is violated by the legislative and executive branch those cheer. Does it matter that drunk driving kills more people per year in the US than acts of terror? Does it matter that more people die from prescription drug dispensation mistakes? Not to the mind of the scared American.
- adrinavarro 13y ago
  Rampant xenowhat? Yes. It's very different to what you get, for example, in Australia. Or most parts of Europe. Yes, you'll probably be a gaijin forever, even if you get naturalized (and renounce to your other nationality). But there's a huge difference between what the japanese are, and have always been, and xenophobia. Of course you get a different treatment unless you show them what you know and your respect, but it boils down to the kind of society it is and the fact that you're, at first sight, different from them. But different, not worse.
- pwim 13y ago
  Japan isn't any more xenophobic than the US. I've lived seven years in Japan. Even if I were to get Japanese citizenship, I wouldn't identify myself culturally as Japanese (and neither would Japanese think of me as Japanese). Countries like the US separate cultural identity and citizenship, so having citizenship but still being seen as a foreigner might seem a bit strange at first. On the other hand, if I was to go to the US, there are certain cultural identities I could never have. For instance, as a white guy, I could never be treated as an African American, no matter how much I wanted to be or tried.
  - rjbwork 13y ago
    > For instance, as a white guy, I could never be treated as an African American, no matter how much I wanted to be or tried. This hasn't stopped a great many white guys from trying!

raverbashing 13y ago

I agree with the general spirit of your post, however: Amsterdam Schipol has (a lot of) scanning machines as well. Germany has more freedom in certain areas and less freedom in others. (you can't take your empty bottles to the recycling bins on Sunday for example)

VMG 13y ago
of all the things bothering me about Germany, this is not one of them. More the fact that nearly all shops close at 8pm and everything is closed on sunday.
- nodata 13y ago
  It introduces a different mentality: you have to do something other than shop.
  - bane 13y ago
    As an international traveler that for some reason ends up arriving in Germany Sundays, let me assure you, it sucks to high heaven that I can't get something to eat or drink easily.
    - Derbasti 13y ago
      Restaurants, bakeries, gas stations, and everything at airports or train stations is open on sundays in Germany.
      - bane 13y ago
        Last time I went to Germany was...2009? I grabbed something to go at the airport and hit the road for my destination in central Bavaria. After I checked into my hotel, I hit six entire towns where everything was closed. It was around 6-7pm on a Sunday. Which is a hugely popular eating out time for families in the States. I finally found a Kebab place that was open and stuffed myself to the gills I was so starved. The rest of the week was perfectly fine. The next Sunday? Same thing, only I made sure to have a couple pre-made sandwiches in my hotel room and some breakfast meats I stored in the fridge from breakfast the previous day. As a traveler, Germany on Sundays simply sucks.

amirmc 13y ago

Airports are only a symptom of a wider problem and I see this as running away. Much like when a bear is chasing you, you only have to be faster than those around you. Eventually the bear will chase you again and you'll be the only one left. To make that a little more concrete, you can only keep moving while there are viable places to move to. Sure, that's probably fine for our lifetimes but we're handing on a legacy where we refuse to fight for anything. When these machines and processes are everywhere they become even harder to fight against. Edit: Also, moving when you have family (partner, kids), becomes even more complex and stressful. It's simply not a viable option for many.

jballanc 13y ago
I'd like to replace your bear with a pendulum. History has shown that public sentiment towards authoritarianism is cyclical. Certainly Nazi Germany represented an authoritarian regime that was more repressive than the current US government (history will tell how long this remains true...), but that played out. Now Germany has a wonderful framework of laws and regulations to guard personal privacy. What leaving does is control how far the pendulum swings. Imagine if Fermi hadn't left Italy? Or consider Lise Meitner who didn't leave Germany when everyone else did (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lise_Meitner http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lise_Meitner). In her words, "It was not only stupid but also very wrong that I did not leave at once."
- amirmc 13y ago
  > "Now Germany has a wonderful framework of laws and regulations to guard personal privacy." The part you're conveniently forgetting is at what cost? Sure, the pendulum may swing back the other way eventually but how many lives are going to be destroyed during these unnecessary oscillations.
  - r00fus 13y ago
    Reminds me of a Keynes quote: "Markets can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent." In this case, the pendulum can remain autocratic far longer than your life is worth it - if you feel that fighting is not possible, perhaps the best move is to worry about your own (family's) safety first.

rbanffy 13y ago

> There is an extremely simple solution: leave. Actually, it's not a solution. If everyone who questions such ineffective and intrusive procedures leave, the ones who imposed them on your fellow citizens win. It's not my country, but I like it a lot. And it deeply saddens me to see what is happening to it.

javert 13y ago
Actually, if we could get 50% of all engineers and technophiles to flee the US, the insanity would have to stop. (How would they continue to pay for it?) May not be a terrible strategy going forward if the US starts looking like an end-stage Weimer Republic, especially since people will have to flee anyway.
- rbanffy 13y ago
  Keep in mind it's an end-stage Weimar Republic with huge military power and operational nukes.
  - javert 13y ago
    Well, it isn't yet an end-stage Weimer Republic. I'm just saying that it could forseeably, possibly get there. And while the US could implement many aspects of fascism (particularly government control of industry that is nomially help privately, which is alredy the case for telecom), a war for global domination is not likely one of them.
- thaumaturgy 13y ago
  > Actually, if we could get 50% of all engineers and technophiles to flee the US, the insanity would have to stop. On the contrary, I'd expect it to worsen. Engineers and technophiles are some of the most outspoken groups opposed to the surveillance state and other abuses of power, especially technological ones. They're also the groups most likely to invent technological workarounds to abuses of power. > How would they continue to pay for it? The same way it's being paid for now: massive debt.

honzzz 13y ago

This might sound really weird but I actually believe that for people who like freedom post-communist countries that were NOT part of Soviet Union can be quite good place to live right now. I had previously spent 7 months in the US and I had lived in UK for 2.5 years and now I live in the Czech Republic. I guess this is very subjective but I believe that for example this country currently offers way more freedom than the "land of free" or UK. It has its downsides but not as many as an average citizen of western country would probably think. You could live pretty comfortable "nice apartment, designer clothes and BMW" life in Prague if you wish so (not that I do). It's not how Americans usually imagine Eastern Europe and because of the past people are more sensitive about government intrusion and the government is weak - do not conflate Eastern Europe with Russia with that weird authoritarian shit (the anti-gay law etc.) - this is completely different world here. Just my $0.02 - it's about personal priorities. And it still feels weird just saying this... given what I thought 25 years ago. EDIT: I should not have said 'countries that were NOT part of Soviet Union' - certainly not all of them, for example I hear really nice things about Estonia and I am sure that not all ex-Soviet countries are like Russia.

varjag 13y ago
A good deal of Eastern Europe is still quite homophobic and xenophobic, even if there are no actual discrimination laws in place.
- LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
  true. So is the rest of the world. We are just lacking in the political correctness department.
  - varjag 13y ago
    ..and Russians are just putting what you are lacking into a law.
    - LekkoscPiwa 13y ago
      I think that Russia today is closer in terms of crazy laws they put in place to the US than to Poland.

mosburger 13y ago

"Extremely simple?" There's lots of reasons it isn't so simple for people. 1) Barriers to work and emigration 2) Language barriers - I know that learning a new language isn't impossible (I know a little Spanish but I'd hardly call myself fluent), but I speak only English fluently, which limits me to a handful of nations, many of which are nearly as bad as the United States (hey UK, how are those surveillance cameras?) 3) A lot of us have family support systems that aren't easy to give up - I happen to know who you are, and happen to know that the country to which you moved didn't have that problem. ;) I know it's not impossible - I follow /r/IWantOut over on Reddit because I have my own fantasies about leaving the U.S. and maybe moving to a Spanish-speaking country with liberal emigration policies (perhaps Uruguay?). But it's not something I feel like I can put my family through at this time - it's definitely not what I'd call "extremely simple."

madaxe 13y ago
It's extremely simple. You just pull your finger out and do it. I've hopped continent four times so far in my life, and have no intention of stopping. Sure, family, ties, etc., but it's not like you can't visit them, and languages you learn on the go. People are patient. Anyway. Better to go now, than to wait for them to take your passports away.
- RDeckard 13y ago
  Simple in your context is the act itself without considering all the repercussions that mosburger mentioned.
- goatforce5 13y ago
  I'm on my fourth country, but only my third continent. But my feet sure are getting itchy of late. Moving country is real easy. It's something everyone should try for at least a year or two.
  - voltagex_ 13y ago
    Heh. I'm in a wheelchair. I still haven't done a completely independent trip overseas, but I'm working on it. I guess that'll be an interesting blog when I do. Real easy is something that only happens when your circumstances fall into some kind of normal bounds.

ohwp 13y ago

Maybe even simpler: stay, don't fly. The best solutions would be that all passengers refuse to take the scan.

eloisius 13y ago
That's not a solution, unless you mean 'never go anywhere.' TSA is expanding into more modes of transportation [1]. Unchecked, you'd soon see them at every train station, bus terminal and eventually intervals of the interstate. [1]: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/06/us/tsa-expands-duties-beyond-airport-security.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/06/us/tsa-expands-duties-beyo...

outworlder 13y ago

Leaving your own country is never "simple".

astrodust 13y ago
Maybe if you're a loner with no friends or attachments, sure. Most people have lives. If you've ever seen people struggling to get by in what looks like a bombed out hellhole, remember this. People in Zimbabwe, Lebanon, and even Detroit are suffering, but only because for them the alternative is even worse: Being disconnected.

rorrr2 13y ago

How is that a solution? If you're about to take a flight, you already spent a bunch of money, which usually means you really want or need to get to your destination. Leaving doesn't solve anything. You think TSA gives a crap? No, they get paid either way. You think airlines give a crap? No, they already got your money, and now they have an empty seat that they can resell (via the overbooking process). The real solution is to sue.

colkassad 13y ago
I think he meant moving out of the US, not leaving the airport and going home.

anExcitedBeast 13y ago

I know hacker news doesn't generally appreciate comments like this, but moving to Europe is the last thing you want to do if your objection is based on the political theory of individual liberty. Practically speaking the US is losing respect for personal freedom, but at least there's a legal framework and founding ideal for it here.

jballanc 13y ago
If your rely on rules to maintain order, bad actors will figure out how to "game the system". If you rely on people to maintain order, bad actors will bribe and corrupt those in charge. The US has traditionally relied more on rules, and you are correct in citing that the US Constitution and Bill of Rights still represent the most comprehensive set of rules in the world guarding personal freedom. In turn, you also have "enemy combatants", "extraordinary rendition", "enhanced interrogation techniques", "national security letters", and "corporate personhood" that all represent ways in which people have gamed the system. Rules, alone, are not enough. You also need people. (Consequently, where I live now there has always been much greater reliance on people over rules, and as such corruption is a major problem... Striking the right balance can be difficult.)
jwr 13y ago
Could you elaborate on why you believe European countries to have no legal framework for individual liberty? (if I understood your statement correctly) This is an honest question — I believe things to be exactly the opposite, but I'll correct my belief if I'm wrong.

beedogs 13y ago

I left. I live in Australia now. It wasn't a simple solution or an easy decision. They just rammed through millimeter-wave machines here, too. And you can't opt out. http://travelsecure.infrastructure.gov.au/bodyscanners/faq.aspx#e http://travelsecure.infrastructure.gov.au/bodyscanners/faq.a...

skeletonjelly 13y ago
Oh boy! I'm flying overseas soon for the first time in about 7 or 8 years. Does this imply they have backscatter and there's no alternative? I'm guessing this is at every international airport? I see it's random? Sorry I'd rather ask somebody who's been there then misread the carefully crafted Q&A.
minor_nitwit 13y ago
I don't understand the Australian impulse to push this technology when they are under a very low if not non-existent threat. When I was there I was 'wanded' multiple times.
- beedogs 13y ago
  I tend to think they were strong-armed into it.

Vivtek 13y ago

Yeah - re-entering the US is feeling more and more like entering an armed compound. I distinctly don't like it.

LekkoscPiwa 13y ago

Don't leave. Fight. They do it because there is no reaction to their actions. Right there when waiting you should have called your attorney. What I would do: tell them they let me go or I call my attorney who'll shortly come and sue them for violating my constitutional rights.

dpatru 13y ago

Rather than leave, the better solution is to force the rights-violators to stop. They are the ones in the wrong, they should be ashamed and shamed. This reminds me of the NSA recruitment session at the University of Washington (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVIHvbYYxJo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVIHvbYYxJo) where the NSA agent tried to tell a skeptical student that she should not keep asking embarrassing questions, because even if an NSA job was not right for her, she should not prevent other students from joining the agency. In other words, it's fine to disagree with turning your country into a police state, you don't have to join the secret police, but don't interfere with your fellow citizens who want to profit from joining the police force. "when bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." --Edmund Burke

mherdeg 13y ago

Do you happen to know — what happens if you try to decline to enter the full-body-scanners at AMS? Does Schiphol also have a "pat down option" like the TSA offers? Thinking of other European countries, in the UK, signs at Gatwick say that if you are selected for a full-body scan and decline to use the machine, you will not be allowed to travel.

schoen 13y ago
The use of the full-body scanners at Schiphol is optional. The agents there are not very well-trained about this fact but people do normally succeed in opting out. For example, I succeeded after OHM earlier this month, though I was given more push-back than when opting out in the U.S. Here is a Dutch government site about the scanners confirming that travelers are allowed to opt out: http://english.nctv.nl/themes_en/themes-a-z/Security_and_civil_aviation/Security_Scan/FAQ_3.aspx http://english.nctv.nl/themes_en/themes-a-z/Security_and_civ...

aneth5 13y ago

If your singular judge of freedom and human rights is the annoyances of the TSA, there is a small chance this enormous decision may solve your concern. If you have other concerns, you're likely to be sadly disappointed by overt corruption, intolerance, censorship, extreme taxation, or other ways your freedom can be violated. It's not at all that simple.

pinaceae 13y ago

as someone who recently moved TO the US - you are delusional. as if there is a magic, fairy place that is freedom and liberty and pixies. Asia? good luck, the individual has awesome rights, try talking badly about the thai royalty for example. go on, please do. Europe? Just moved from there, great place. But if you're looking for the right to act out your individual freedom (which ends where it impacts the freedom of ours), then you're in for a suprise. US constitution does not apply there. No amendments. No pleading the fifth or other stuff. Maybe Somalia is the place for you. No one will force you through a milliwave scanner there.

jpwagner 13y ago
it's a shame that you draw a comparison between liberty and magic.
3pt14159 13y ago
Just off the top of my head, countries that are both freer and less insane: Canada, The Netherlands, Norway, Iceland, New Zealand, Singapore, Estonia, Latvia, Switzerland. Freer in terms of personal freedom, civil rights, economic freedom. In the US you have: 1. Forced to sign up for the draft. 2. Your "Army Reserves" and "National Guard" DEPLOYED to fun places like Afghanistan on a rotating schedule. No they did not agree to it, reserves are meant to defend a country when it is attacked, not to be pulled into a regional conflicts. Canada for example, has reserves, but they arn't in Afghanistan unless they volunteer to. 3. Every call and email monitored. 4. A militarized police state. 5. Massive hidden intelligence budgets. 6. Drug sales by intelligence forces. 7. 5% of GDP just on the military, let alone "intelligence" and "security" (NSA / CIA / TSA / etc). 8. Private prisons with bribed judges. 9. 1% of men in jail, CURRENTLY (with more on parole). 10. 0.5% of women in jail. 11. Domestic drones. 12. Laws against using cryptography without registering it with the NSA. 13. The most aggressive fingerprint collection system out of any country in the world. 14. Unbearable licensing for alcohol, firearms, businesses, hair dressers (state dependent). 15. Project mockingbird (seriously wtf is the point of a "free press" if your own CIA has infiltrated it). 16. A do not fly list that has millions of people on it none of which can contest the reasons why. This is made worse since it was held up by the courts (under the guise that they can always take a train). In Canada we have less than a thousand people and there is a mechanism for challenging it. America only feels free while you are there and under the radar.

outside1234 13y ago

Is simple the right answer (and moving abroad is NOT simple)? I did just that with the Bush years - first to London then to Singapore. Obama convinced me to come back (I know) - but I don't have the same feeling now that he's betrayed us as well. We have to stay and fight. We need more than one of a hundred of us being as brave as the poster. We need it to be clear that we are going to vote anyone out that keeps this apparatus running unchanged. Leaving just makes it easy to dismiss us.

toddmorey 13y ago

I prefer Oren's approach: writing about the experience—provoking discussion, even outrage, and eventually change. I've lived overseas many times, but my simple advice when making life choices is to ask yourself wether you are running _to_ something (an amazing opportunity) or _away_ from something else. Advocating for change takes stamina and patience. There are many good reasons to leave the US. And, like other nations, the US has some large and seemingly unsolvable problems. I just don't believe that the current state of airport security is immutable. I'll concede that 9/11 had far-reaching impacts, predicated on our own fears and overreactions. What I won't concede is my home.

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joshdance 13y ago

Seems like a defeatist attitude. Person 1 - "point out problem that should be fixed". Person 2 - "give up".

alan_cx 13y ago

It would be quite a wheeze if countries started offering American (and UK) citizens political asylum, and favorable conditions. Long been said that the US is a brain drain for other countries, well, reverse it. Perhaps that could be a great way for us to protest. If lots of US and UK (Aussies? Kiwis? Canadians?) citizens/subjects applied for political asylum in countries like Russia, would that send a message? At the very least, it would be bloody amusing!!!

aclevernickname 13y ago

> There is an extremely simple solution: leave. I did exactly that during the second term of Bush Jr. Left for Canada, and haven't been back since. The longer I'm gone, the more I don't want to go back. I miss my guns, but I'd miss my rights more. My relatives have to experience egregious security checks while coming to visit me, but once they're here, their human rights are respected. Many of them (NRA members, even) are thinking of moving here for good.

larrys 13y ago

"There is an extremely simple solution: leave." So to be clear you think it's simpler to leave the country rather than go through a machine?

gmuslera 13y ago

Leaving is a short term solution. A lot of countries are scalating in surveillance because there is the perception that US is trying to desestabilize a lot of governments with this disclosed programs. And, of course, could be for real, so the country where you land could eventually be desestabilized in a few years, and things will get ugly (look at middle east for a hint). And, as a foreigner. your privacy on the global internet is ensured to not be respected by US intelligence agencies, at all. Not that it would make a difference in a few years, but still is something to take into account. The only place on the world where you can have a chance to revert this trend is US, staying, voting, being active, chances are pretty slim, but better than the zero you get if are outside.

pbreit 13y ago

Not "simple" and certainly not "extremely simple".

chris_wot 13y ago

You're joking. There's nothing simple about leaving a country of which you are a citizen! Besides, if you don't like something in a democracy, you work towards changing it. You don't just up and leave.