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>> the mark of our era was the relentless pursuit and shaming of hypocrisy. You must live on a different planet than me. :-) Let me take an example I saw this

by berntb 13y ago

>> the mark of our era was the relentless pursuit and shaming of hypocrisy. You must live on a different planet than me. :-) Let me take an example I saw this week: I have some Eastern Europeans with different opinions in my Facebook. One upset discussion right now is about why Russia gets so much criticism for homophobia these days. They assume it is an old Cold War prejudice, since the whole Middle East and much of Africa are something like a factor of ten worse.. And they get almost no media cover. Including the immigrants (at least in Sweden), which have the same opinions. It might be some unspoken racism from the left wing (not expect better of the primitives), but it is probably just hypocrisy -- harsh criticism of an external example as a way to get everyone on the same page. I'm all for tolerance and acceptance of the gay community, but I seem to be quite unusual in being equally shocked by hypocrisy and double standards as by homophobia. Even if you use double thinking in a good cause to spread tolerance in a group, it clouds your analytic capability in the group. That is a bad thing.

stygianguest 13y ago
This is not hypocrisy and has nothing to do with the cold war. Quite to the contrary: we hold Russians to a higher standard than Saudi Arabia. Like we hold the USA to a higher standard than either country in regards to privacy.
- berntb 13y ago
  If totally different standards for different people/countries regarding intolerance is neither hypocrisy nor racism -- what is it? My theory above is that totally different standards for different parts of the world really is political propaganda to the citizens of the country where the media writes. Do you have another explanation? (To take another example -- even with a Palestinian description of Israel, the Sudan atrocities were a thousand times worse. My local leftwing media (more or less all local media) complained many times more about Israel, anyway. And never about that Israel was criticized every year in UN but Sudan very little. How many thousands of times is reasonable for different standards?) Edit: Note when I wrote that immigrants, even citizens now, in Sweden is criticized much less.. Not even that is neither racism nor double standards?!
  - rjd 13y ago
    Its got a mythos as the last frontier of Europe, of hard country and hard men, enduring under dogs ... down trodden but never giving up. Emerging from each massive injustice with a new culture rich from strife, from the cossacks to beauty hidden within the works of the communist era. And the sadness of what totalitarian rule did to a people trying to build an equal and fair society, the people who died for others, and eventually all in vein. It resonates as a country to admire, a people to admire, the mystique of its history and taste of its asian influence. And despite that its a foreign place. London to St Petersburg is closer than LA to New York, at times Russia has been part of Europe. The double standard for me and many of friends (whom I talk history with it) is one of love, sorrow, and admiration. When the illusion of the Russian mythos breaks and the reality of human condition seeps through you get held to that standard. Not one of a distant problem, a stranger in a strange land, one of a friend.
    - berntb 13y ago
      Are you a Turing Test program that misunderstood and went off on a tangent? (That would explain a lot on HN, recently.) Or are you just trying to change the subject?
      - rjd 13y ago
        No Im just jet lagged :/ and gave you another reason for the double standard towards Russia.
        berntb 13y ago
        On consideration, sorry for being pissy (English slang, iirc). Your comment was relevant to part about what I wrote and very well written. I posted a theory about something I find strange -- and waited with bated breath for either support or to be short down with a good reference that taught me a lot about the world. Sigh, no luck on that part. Maybe no one knows.
      - VLM 13y ago
        So you claim its "political propaganda to the citizens of the country where the media writes" and ask "Do you have another explanation?" and he responds that its "the mystique of its history and taste of its asian influence". Not seeing a problem here?
gyardley 13y ago
In most cases inter-country opinions are just a way to manifest bigotry in a polite and acceptable way. The Europeans holding the American government to a different standard on privacy are doing so because they're reflexively anti-American. The people holding the Russian government to a different standard on gay rights are doing so because Russia's an old Cold War enemy they intrinsically dislike. The people who hold the Israeli government to a different standard than any other nation on earth do so because they hate Jews. No one likes to admit they're a nationalist bigot, so this kind of frank talk is never popular, but we pretty much all are.
- mangotree 13y ago
  What a fantastic way to devalue other people's reasonable opinions. They hate what Israel is doing in Palestine territories because they hate the Jews. Brilliant!
  - gyardley 13y ago
    After seeing the blatant double-standard and after the hostile Palestine grouse-fest I tend to get from people the second they learn I'm Jewish (not Israeli, not anything about my personal politics), yeah - I'm going to call it like I see it. Sorry, but the vast majority of you are bigoted hypocrites. If it wasn't Israel it'd be how we control the media or some other damn fool thing.
    - Amadou 13y ago
      I don't know where you live, but in the USA it has long been normal for pro-Israel jews to claim a sort of ownership of judaism. Ariel Sharon once said, "Israel is not only an Israeli project. Israel is a Jewish, worldwide project." One of the most destructive stereotypes is the self-hating jew - that any jew who criticizes israel is incapable of making a principled argument, instead he's just internalized anti-semitism. So it isn't necessarily anti-semitism for people who have picked up on that cultural norm to assume that any random jew is in favor of israeli policies. The younger generations of American jews don't feel that sort of affinity with Israel, and the Israeli government's policies have played a big part in that disconnect. It is such a big deal that the Netanyahu government ran some tv ads a couple of years ago that basically amounted to telling israelis not to marry american jews because they weren't jewish enough. That went over like a lead balloon, even the ADL criticized the ads. All in all, I think that sort of response is important progress in decoupling judaism from zionism. And, fwiw, I'm a born athiest who married into a mixed family of secular muslims, secular jews and cultural catholics - my grand-niece is a mix of all three, although she's too young to know it.
pessimizer 13y ago
Homophobia in the Middle East and Africa has gotten ten times the media coverage of homophobia in Russia, so I'd say the premise is wrong. Russia is getting attention right now because they just passed a hateful law. I'd never seen any coverage at all of homophobia in Russia until a couple of months ago, when that new law seemed to come out of the blue - so I'd ask the question: why hadn't we heard more about homophobia in Russia? https://duckduckgo.com/?q=uganda+homosexual https://duckduckgo.com/?q=uganda+homosexual
- berntb 13y ago
  There has been active Neonazi groups in Russia since the 90s, with gay bashing and attacks on non-whites. But it is a point, my example might be wrong since media coverage do differ.
LordHumungous 13y ago
Ah, the old "other people are doing it too!" excuse. Russia has actively launched several anti gay initiatives recently, and subsequently repressed the protests from that nation's gay community. Therefore the criticism in the west is more about supporting an ongoing struggle than suddenly one day realizing that Russia's gay laws are backwards. I suspect the same criticism would be leveled against, say, Iran if that nation were in the middle of a crackdown on the Iranian gay rights movement.
samstave 13y ago
>...since the whole Middle East and much of Africa are something like a factor of ten worse.. And they get almost no media cover. I am convinced that there is a secret agenda for letting the majority of Africa just devolve and kill themselves. It seems that should the western world largely ignore the issues of Africa, ~50 years from now corps will be able to move into that region using the same tactics we see today in the ME, and rape it of its resources. The difference being that China has started this rape already - and has caught the western nations (UKUSA) largely unprepared to follow suit. Ever play Trade Wars on BBSs in the 80s? That's pretty much what the world boils down to.
tokipin 13y ago
there are outcries when 3rd world countries do homophobic things, too. i think russia's case is because 1) russia recently accelerated its homophobia by passing laws or intending to pass laws, 2) the olympic games are going to be held in russia, which brings up the question of gay athletes, 3) russia is in the news lately for a lot of things, such as for supporting the Syrian dictator, and 4) gay rights in general has received a lot more attention recently. in particular the U.S. essentially just legalized gay marriage

by berntb 13y ago

stygianguest 13y ago

This is not hypocrisy and has nothing to do with the cold war. Quite to the contrary: we hold Russians to a higher standard than Saudi Arabia. Like we hold the USA to a higher standard than either country in regards to privacy.

berntb 13y ago
If totally different standards for different people/countries regarding intolerance is neither hypocrisy nor racism -- what is it? My theory above is that totally different standards for different parts of the world really is political propaganda to the citizens of the country where the media writes. Do you have another explanation? (To take another example -- even with a Palestinian description of Israel, the Sudan atrocities were a thousand times worse. My local leftwing media (more or less all local media) complained many times more about Israel, anyway. And never about that Israel was criticized every year in UN but Sudan very little. How many thousands of times is reasonable for different standards?) Edit: Note when I wrote that immigrants, even citizens now, in Sweden is criticized much less.. Not even that is neither racism nor double standards?!
- rjd 13y ago
  Its got a mythos as the last frontier of Europe, of hard country and hard men, enduring under dogs ... down trodden but never giving up. Emerging from each massive injustice with a new culture rich from strife, from the cossacks to beauty hidden within the works of the communist era. And the sadness of what totalitarian rule did to a people trying to build an equal and fair society, the people who died for others, and eventually all in vein. It resonates as a country to admire, a people to admire, the mystique of its history and taste of its asian influence. And despite that its a foreign place. London to St Petersburg is closer than LA to New York, at times Russia has been part of Europe. The double standard for me and many of friends (whom I talk history with it) is one of love, sorrow, and admiration. When the illusion of the Russian mythos breaks and the reality of human condition seeps through you get held to that standard. Not one of a distant problem, a stranger in a strange land, one of a friend.
  - berntb 13y ago
    Are you a Turing Test program that misunderstood and went off on a tangent? (That would explain a lot on HN, recently.) Or are you just trying to change the subject?
    - rjd 13y ago
      No Im just jet lagged :/ and gave you another reason for the double standard towards Russia.
      - berntb 13y ago
        On consideration, sorry for being pissy (English slang, iirc). Your comment was relevant to part about what I wrote and very well written. I posted a theory about something I find strange -- and waited with bated breath for either support or to be short down with a good reference that taught me a lot about the world. Sigh, no luck on that part. Maybe no one knows.
    - VLM 13y ago
      So you claim its "political propaganda to the citizens of the country where the media writes" and ask "Do you have another explanation?" and he responds that its "the mystique of its history and taste of its asian influence". Not seeing a problem here?

gyardley 13y ago

In most cases inter-country opinions are just a way to manifest bigotry in a polite and acceptable way. The Europeans holding the American government to a different standard on privacy are doing so because they're reflexively anti-American. The people holding the Russian government to a different standard on gay rights are doing so because Russia's an old Cold War enemy they intrinsically dislike. The people who hold the Israeli government to a different standard than any other nation on earth do so because they hate Jews. No one likes to admit they're a nationalist bigot, so this kind of frank talk is never popular, but we pretty much all are.

mangotree 13y ago
What a fantastic way to devalue other people's reasonable opinions. They hate what Israel is doing in Palestine territories because they hate the Jews. Brilliant!
- gyardley 13y ago
  After seeing the blatant double-standard and after the hostile Palestine grouse-fest I tend to get from people the second they learn I'm Jewish (not Israeli, not anything about my personal politics), yeah - I'm going to call it like I see it. Sorry, but the vast majority of you are bigoted hypocrites. If it wasn't Israel it'd be how we control the media or some other damn fool thing.
  - Amadou 13y ago
    I don't know where you live, but in the USA it has long been normal for pro-Israel jews to claim a sort of ownership of judaism. Ariel Sharon once said, "Israel is not only an Israeli project. Israel is a Jewish, worldwide project." One of the most destructive stereotypes is the self-hating jew - that any jew who criticizes israel is incapable of making a principled argument, instead he's just internalized anti-semitism. So it isn't necessarily anti-semitism for people who have picked up on that cultural norm to assume that any random jew is in favor of israeli policies. The younger generations of American jews don't feel that sort of affinity with Israel, and the Israeli government's policies have played a big part in that disconnect. It is such a big deal that the Netanyahu government ran some tv ads a couple of years ago that basically amounted to telling israelis not to marry american jews because they weren't jewish enough. That went over like a lead balloon, even the ADL criticized the ads. All in all, I think that sort of response is important progress in decoupling judaism from zionism. And, fwiw, I'm a born athiest who married into a mixed family of secular muslims, secular jews and cultural catholics - my grand-niece is a mix of all three, although she's too young to know it.

pessimizer 13y ago

Homophobia in the Middle East and Africa has gotten ten times the media coverage of homophobia in Russia, so I'd say the premise is wrong. Russia is getting attention right now because they just passed a hateful law. I'd never seen any coverage at all of homophobia in Russia until a couple of months ago, when that new law seemed to come out of the blue - so I'd ask the question: why hadn't we heard more about homophobia in Russia? https://duckduckgo.com/?q=uganda+homosexual https://duckduckgo.com/?q=uganda+homosexual

berntb 13y ago
There has been active Neonazi groups in Russia since the 90s, with gay bashing and attacks on non-whites. But it is a point, my example might be wrong since media coverage do differ.

LordHumungous 13y ago

Ah, the old "other people are doing it too!" excuse. Russia has actively launched several anti gay initiatives recently, and subsequently repressed the protests from that nation's gay community. Therefore the criticism in the west is more about supporting an ongoing struggle than suddenly one day realizing that Russia's gay laws are backwards. I suspect the same criticism would be leveled against, say, Iran if that nation were in the middle of a crackdown on the Iranian gay rights movement.

samstave 13y ago

>...since the whole Middle East and much of Africa are something like a factor of ten worse.. And they get almost no media cover. I am convinced that there is a secret agenda for letting the majority of Africa just devolve and kill themselves. It seems that should the western world largely ignore the issues of Africa, ~50 years from now corps will be able to move into that region using the same tactics we see today in the ME, and rape it of its resources. The difference being that China has started this rape already - and has caught the western nations (UKUSA) largely unprepared to follow suit. Ever play Trade Wars on BBSs in the 80s? That's pretty much what the world boils down to.

tokipin 13y ago

there are outcries when 3rd world countries do homophobic things, too. i think russia's case is because 1) russia recently accelerated its homophobia by passing laws or intending to pass laws, 2) the olympic games are going to be held in russia, which brings up the question of gay athletes, 3) russia is in the news lately for a lot of things, such as for supporting the Syrian dictator, and 4) gay rights in general has received a lot more attention recently. in particular the U.S. essentially just legalized gay marriage