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All this link says to me is that the people who hang in comp.lang.javascript are all a bunch of smug pricks. David Mark comes across like a complete ass. And

by jawngee 17y ago

All this link says to me is that the people who hang in comp.lang.javascript are all a bunch of smug pricks. David Mark comes across like a complete ass. And while his critique of jQuery might have some validity, his tone and attitude are such a turn off, and the consequence of him being "right" is not really all that important in the grand scheme of things. People build cool shit with jQuery. That's all that is important. While "My Library" might be better, rate of adoption is sometimes more important than correctness. Specifically for something as trivial as javascript. If it's really important to him, why isn't he participating in making jQuery better since "My Library" is used by virtually nobody. From the read, it seems like his ego is getting in the way. And it's funny that, considering he hasn't done much noteworthy otherwise.

eugenejen 17y ago
jQuery has a pretty uniform programmer interface. I guess just that one is the killing feature than other library. The dom method is much difficult to be remember. So just wait until John Resig to improve the code. He helped to start an movement. When Linux came out in 91, my friend said why did not I use other unix on pc but that crap. But almost 20 years later, Linux is alive and kicking... Worst is better. As long as it propagates and more users bases, the improvement will come one day. Don't forget technology is also an human activity. So social aspect of the technology acceptance is part of the equation.
- DavidMark 17y ago
  "jQuery has a pretty uniform programmer interface. I guess just that one is the killing feature than other library. The dom method is much difficult to be remember." Yes, jQuery's uniform interface is useless to abstract varying environments. That's part of what is killing it. If you can't detect when a method will work, you are doomed to exceptions in environments unknown to John Resig (which would seem to include all versions of IE.) No, John Resig didn't start any movement. jQuery is not Linux. It's just a stupid little script.
ilitirit 17y ago
> All this link says to me is that the people who hang in comp.lang.javascript are all a bunch of smug pricks. From my experience, that can be said of comp.lang.* I haven't been to any of the comp.lang groups in a while though, but it doesn't look like I've missed much. I'll give the regulars there this much: most of them really know what they're talking about. If I were John Resig, I'd take that message to head, not heart.
axod 17y ago
Instead of attacking them with "smug pricks" and "complete ass", read their reasoning. Look at the code. Do you want your js to be creating functions all the time? Is it worth it? My personal stance, is that you simply don't need a javascript library. The browser differences are very small, and not rocket science to work with. Learning javascript > learning jquery | prototype | etc I agree though, people build cool stuff with jquery. This thread is just people pointing out that if you care how fast your webapp runs, or how much memory it uses, then using a library is probably a bad idea.
- jemmons 17y ago
  Instead of attacking them with "smug pricks" and "complete ass", read their reasoning. I don't wanna. Because they're smug pricks. Next?
  - axod 17y ago
    Come on. If you put code out there, you're going to have "smug pricks" showing you why it completely sucks. You can either take on board their criticism, or ignore it. I'd say it's worth taking it on board to improve the code. Regardless of how smugly it's put.
    - knowtheory 17y ago
      organization is politics. If someone is so obnoxious that they can only contribute in a manner as poisonous as this, then what the hell is the point of including them? It's not worth the collective psychic grief. There's enough fighting amongst people who mean well and are trying to steer projects in the best manner they can. If someone is choosing the be an asshole, then they can get lost. There's no excuse for the abuse.
      - Semiapies 17y ago
        For that matter, it's very rare that any random asshole really is some special snowflake of a talent who can't be profitably replaced by someone with social skills.
DavidMark 17y ago
"All this link says to me is that the people who hang in comp.lang.javascript are all a bunch of smug pricks." I don't see that. "David Mark comes across like a complete ass. And while his critique of jQuery might have some validity, his tone and attitude are such a turn off, and the consequence of him being "right" is not really all that important in the grand scheme of things." Being right doesn't matter? That's some scheme you have there. "People build cool shit with jQuery. That's all that is important. While "My Library" might be better, rate of adoption is sometimes more important than correctness. Specifically for something as trivial as javascript. If it's really important to him, why isn't he participating in making jQuery better since "My Library" is used by virtually nobody. From the read, it seems like his ego is getting in the way. And it's funny that, considering he hasn't done much noteworthy otherwise." You don't seem to know anything about My Library (or David Mark for that matter.) Why don't you do some reading and try again.
- hufnagel 17y ago
  Being respected doesn't matter? Were you dissed as a young programmer? Did somebody take your beautiful 'hello world' creation and laugh in your face at its inefficiency? What do you gain exactly, by coming across as a 'smug prick' or a 'complete ass'?
- jemmons 17y ago
  "Being right doesn't matter? That's some scheme you have there." Yet it's the overwhelming opinion of many here. Just look at these comments. We're trying to do you a favor, man. Let me offer you the constructive criticism you didn't offer in your post: If you propose a theory in the spirit of honest debate and camaraderie, and that theory is proven to be incorrect, no one remembers that you were the dude with the "wrong theory". All they remember is the right theory and that you helped to frame it. On the other hand, if you put forth a theory like an asshole, and that theory is proven to be correct, you're still an asshole. Sure, this probably doesn't seem fair from a meritocratic point of view. But it's one of the laws of the world we live in, same as gravity. I think you'd end up encountering a great deal more success if you started factoring it into your equations.
  - 17y ago

by jawngee 17y ago

eugenejen 17y ago

jQuery has a pretty uniform programmer interface. I guess just that one is the killing feature than other library. The dom method is much difficult to be remember. So just wait until John Resig to improve the code. He helped to start an movement. When Linux came out in 91, my friend said why did not I use other unix on pc but that crap. But almost 20 years later, Linux is alive and kicking... Worst is better. As long as it propagates and more users bases, the improvement will come one day. Don't forget technology is also an human activity. So social aspect of the technology acceptance is part of the equation.

DavidMark 17y ago
"jQuery has a pretty uniform programmer interface. I guess just that one is the killing feature than other library. The dom method is much difficult to be remember." Yes, jQuery's uniform interface is useless to abstract varying environments. That's part of what is killing it. If you can't detect when a method will work, you are doomed to exceptions in environments unknown to John Resig (which would seem to include all versions of IE.) No, John Resig didn't start any movement. jQuery is not Linux. It's just a stupid little script.

ilitirit 17y ago

> All this link says to me is that the people who hang in comp.lang.javascript are all a bunch of smug pricks. From my experience, that can be said of comp.lang.* I haven't been to any of the comp.lang groups in a while though, but it doesn't look like I've missed much. I'll give the regulars there this much: most of them really know what they're talking about. If I were John Resig, I'd take that message to head, not heart.

axod 17y ago

Instead of attacking them with "smug pricks" and "complete ass", read their reasoning. Look at the code. Do you want your js to be creating functions all the time? Is it worth it? My personal stance, is that you simply don't need a javascript library. The browser differences are very small, and not rocket science to work with. Learning javascript > learning jquery | prototype | etc I agree though, people build cool stuff with jquery. This thread is just people pointing out that if you care how fast your webapp runs, or how much memory it uses, then using a library is probably a bad idea.

jemmons 17y ago
Instead of attacking them with "smug pricks" and "complete ass", read their reasoning. I don't wanna. Because they're smug pricks. Next?
- axod 17y ago
  Come on. If you put code out there, you're going to have "smug pricks" showing you why it completely sucks. You can either take on board their criticism, or ignore it. I'd say it's worth taking it on board to improve the code. Regardless of how smugly it's put.
  - knowtheory 17y ago
    organization is politics. If someone is so obnoxious that they can only contribute in a manner as poisonous as this, then what the hell is the point of including them? It's not worth the collective psychic grief. There's enough fighting amongst people who mean well and are trying to steer projects in the best manner they can. If someone is choosing the be an asshole, then they can get lost. There's no excuse for the abuse.
    - Semiapies 17y ago
      For that matter, it's very rare that any random asshole really is some special snowflake of a talent who can't be profitably replaced by someone with social skills.

DavidMark 17y ago

"All this link says to me is that the people who hang in comp.lang.javascript are all a bunch of smug pricks." I don't see that. "David Mark comes across like a complete ass. And while his critique of jQuery might have some validity, his tone and attitude are such a turn off, and the consequence of him being "right" is not really all that important in the grand scheme of things." Being right doesn't matter? That's some scheme you have there. "People build cool shit with jQuery. That's all that is important. While "My Library" might be better, rate of adoption is sometimes more important than correctness. Specifically for something as trivial as javascript. If it's really important to him, why isn't he participating in making jQuery better since "My Library" is used by virtually nobody. From the read, it seems like his ego is getting in the way. And it's funny that, considering he hasn't done much noteworthy otherwise." You don't seem to know anything about My Library (or David Mark for that matter.) Why don't you do some reading and try again.

hufnagel 17y ago
Being respected doesn't matter? Were you dissed as a young programmer? Did somebody take your beautiful 'hello world' creation and laugh in your face at its inefficiency? What do you gain exactly, by coming across as a 'smug prick' or a 'complete ass'?
jemmons 17y ago
"Being right doesn't matter? That's some scheme you have there." Yet it's the overwhelming opinion of many here. Just look at these comments. We're trying to do you a favor, man. Let me offer you the constructive criticism you didn't offer in your post: If you propose a theory in the spirit of honest debate and camaraderie, and that theory is proven to be incorrect, no one remembers that you were the dude with the "wrong theory". All they remember is the right theory and that you helped to frame it. On the other hand, if you put forth a theory like an asshole, and that theory is proven to be correct, you're still an asshole. Sure, this probably doesn't seem fair from a meritocratic point of view. But it's one of the laws of the world we live in, same as gravity. I think you'd end up encountering a great deal more success if you started factoring it into your equations.
- 17y ago