10 ms·

My Dinner With NSA Director Keith Alexander

97 points by sinak 13y ago

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
jnbiche 13y ago
The stunning thing to me is that Gen. Alexander clearly sees this at least partially as a left/right issue, or at least that was his game at this dinner. In fact, most of the left-leaning people I know, with the exception of the civil libertarian leftist, have been averting their eyes from the whole surveillance issue now that Obama is in office. The left and right are hand-in-hand together in this. The only people opposing it are the civil libertarians on the left and the libertarians on the right, both with equal conviction. So the fact that he attributes her concern to being "to the left of Sen. Wyden" is very interesting and tell me a lot about his worldview. And yet so many Democrat leftist have been defending this program (or at least ignoring it) and going after Greenwald with an energy unseen from the right. Some thinking Democrats may be finally waking up to the threat this poses to our democracy, regardless of who is now in office, but the majority of them still are standing behind Obama (see recent vote on defunding the NSA surveilance program).
- jacquesm 13y ago
  The easy explanation here is that both the Democrats and the Republicans in the United States are 'right of center', America at present does not have a functional 'left', just the illusion of one.
  - guns 13y ago
    No, this issue neither falls on the "left" or "right"; it is better framed as the tension between central authority vs personal liberty. Both progressives on the left and conservatives on the right ask the government to regulate and control different aspects of society.َ† George Washington was widely praised for disbanding the Continental Army after dispelling the British, and also declined a third term as President despite unflagging adoration from the public. Times have changed, and some of this idealism has perhaps been lost to pragmatism over the years, but this is the golden legacy that the General and the other officers of the Executive are willfully squandering in the pursuit of a few terrorists. † Hence the old joke that progressives want the government in their business but out of their bedroom, and conservatives want government out of their business, but in their bedroom.
    - mpyne 13y ago
      Indeed, this is far different than just a left/right thing. Assange, for instance, has been pushing a lot of these disclosures but he is not a leftist. He denies climate change, opposes unions (and social entitlements in general) and says the best politicians in the U.S. Congress are in the libertarian wing of the G.O.P. Note that I'm not trying to denigrate his political views... just agreeing with you that it's not as simple as left-wing/right-wing. Just because you believe in 'no secrets' doesn't mean you believe in the workers controlling the means of production.
- zachrose 13y ago
  Similarly, I'm surprised that I haven't heard about much overlap between 2nd Amendment groups and those concerned about NSA surveillance. What's the use is your stockpile of assault rifles if all your communications are tapped?
  - presidentender 13y ago
    I am a state-level leader in a firearms education group that the SPLC characterizes as a militia. Every individual instructor I've worked with has spoken out against this overreach.
    - rdl 13y ago
      Now I'm curious, which group gets this honor?
      - presidentender 13y ago
        It's called Project Appleseed. There certainly are some people involved with whom I disagree, but the stated goals of civic engagement, firearms safety, and political neutrality are things I can get behind.
        rdl 13y ago
        Uh, wtf. That's approximately as threatening a group as the Boy Scouts. SPLC is crazy, now I have to question the rest of their work.
        presidentender 13y ago
        As dragonwriter points out, I mislead you: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6263959 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6263959
        rdl 13y ago
        Ah, makes sense. I guess I'm sensitive on the militia issue, because I think it would be awesome to set up a militia to provide the non-combat military services (communications, medical, maintenance, operating airfields, water, etc.) in a post disaster environment -- and doing it in a way with organic security, so you could go in directly to a place like Haiti or even Somalia without delay. The "light infantry fighting in the woods" militia is dumb, though.
- dtf 13y ago
  Much the same situation in the UK - left and right are remarkably quiet on the issue. Any political party that has held the reins for a term or two has ridden close enough to the devil to know the deal they must make.
- seehafer 13y ago
  An easier explanation is that most Americans are incredibly tribal in their thinking and how they evaluate the ethics of a particular situation. The left trusts Obama, and didn't trust Bush, and therefore surveillance that would have yielded passionate protest under the latter is A-OK under the former.
analreceiver 13y ago
I do think he is a bad guy and they're always the best at hiding their true intentions. I also think you're naive, more so if you admit he lied to your face.
mrt0mat0 13y ago
I liked the article, but the part i found most interesting was the comment. I just want to point out a flaw in your individual count calculation. Although normal person would have just 40 contacts you forget that some of us call very common number and that lets NSA to connect even more people that 19mil. Even I never met this article author, we are probably connected in less than 3 hops :). If I called Verizon support and author called Verizon support, we are connected. And if some suspect called Verizon support, our phone call history is in that “corporate store” where NSA can query any way they want :). You are absolutely right – evil is in details… so this is a huge loophole. i think every one i know and people i don't have called verizon or comcast. so if someone that is a foreigner makes a call to verizon or comcast, i am now able to be collected on? welcome to the party everyone. i'm in a terrorist bin at the NSA. EDIT: also, i was just thinking: if i want to track someone and all i have is the phone number, why can't i just have someone i know that's overseas call them once? they are now able to be tracked. isn't that a flaw to the system? there is no way this kind of power can be contained.
- jnbiche 13y ago
  And you better believe that after being harangued by the President and Congress for years following 9/11 to "act more creatively", the Intelligence Community is using exactly these types of loopholes.
- eliasmacpherson 13y ago
  Are you using a pay as you go mobile? Under that definition, everyone that 'tops up' is connected.
  - epoxyhockey 13y ago
    I also receive free text messages from my provider (Edit: e.g. the texts that say 'thank you for paying your bill'). Does that mean that I'm connected to every subscriber on the network that also receives these free texts?
    - eliasmacpherson 13y ago
crummy 13y ago
"I think Gen. Alexander believes that history is made by great individuals standing against evil." I wonder how many people think Edward Snowden would fit this description!
mikegagnon 13y ago
I think the author's most important point is that she sees the NSA Director as a "good man," even though she considers his activities to be criminal and a threat to democracy. I agree with her. I think it is important to realize that authorities aren't necessarily caricatures of evil like Dr. Evil from Austin Powers. I don't believe Gen. Keith Alexander is conspiring to undercut democracy. I believe he is earnest but misguided. And I believe the present institution rewards and promotes those who are earnest and misguided. I believe it is simply an emergent phenomenon. Of course there exist evil people who will intentionally abuse their power for selfish gain. I do not believe though that blatant evil is the dominant force in the world. I think the most common case is that there are just people in power who are trying to do something "good," yet they share different values and concerns than their opponents. How could someone be "good" yet conduct mass surveillance? (1) The belief that terrorism represents a grave threat, (2) the belief that mass surveillance is the best way to combat terrorism, and (3) the belief that their implementation of mass surveillance doesn't represent a significant threat to civil liberties. This is important to consider when you oppose someone's actions and policies. It won't be productive to assume your opponent is evil. Rather, it will be better to have an honest intellectual discussion and debate about your values and the pragmatic dangers of secrecy and mass surveillance.
- joezydeco 13y ago
  This one line "The General seemed convinced that if only I knew what he knew, I would agree with him." Makes me think back to that Daniel Ellsberg article where he's briefing Kissinger for the first time about having access to the whole of the USA's intelligence banks: "First, you'll be exhilarated by some of this new information, and by having it all — so much! incredible! — suddenly available to you. But second, almost as fast, you will feel like a fool for having studied, written, talked about these subjects, criticized and analyzed decisions made by presidents for years without having known of the existence of all this information, which presidents and others had and you didn't, and which must have influenced their decisions in ways you couldn't even guess. In particular, you'll feel foolish for having literally rubbed shoulders for over a decade with some officials and consultants who did have access to all this information you didn't know about and didn't know they had, and you'll be stunned that they kept that secret from you so well." [1] http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2010/02/daniel-ellsberg-limitations-knowledge http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2010/02/daniel-ellsber...
waterlion 13y ago
This thing about hastily stating how much you love your country seems bizarre. I don't know if it's a uniquely American thing but to British ears it always seems odd. It seems like a constant struggle to reassure patriotism in a way that suggests that the 'battle' for liberty and freedom of expression is lost, in the same way that self-censorship does (is it a McCarthyist hang-over?).
- jacquesm 13y ago
  It may simply be to find a justification for ones actions which when not seen through some kind of rosy lens might cause one to self-reflect and ask pointed questions.
- mattezell 13y ago
  This is just my opinion - purely conjecture based on my own experiences.. As someone who has done the very thing that you are questioning, I know that the following have somewhat been a motivation for me... It is a very common tactic in interpersonal political debate/discussion in the U.S. for one side to discredit another's opinion by quickly painting their sentiments as "anti-American" or "anti-patriotic" - I've generally seen this tactic put into play by our right-leaning conservatives. I think that the 'disclaimer' of stating that you are in fact a patriot is often merely an attempt to derail the oft-used "SEE - YOU'RE A FREAKING LIBERAL COMMUNIST WHO HATES PUPPIES, KITTENS AND AMERICA! YOUR OPINIONS ARE NOW INVALID!" As sad as it is to say, political debates in the U.S. are rarely about what's ultimately right or wrong... It's a contest and it's about winning... Not for everyone, mind you - I'd far rather lose a debate than defend an incorrect point - but for a lot of people, it's about yelling louder and forcing the other to concede. Case in point.. Years ago, I worked in a field that exposed me to A LOT of military - active and retired... In a "friendly" discussion regarding socialized healthcare with a person I admired and respected, I stated that I was 'ok with paying more taxes if it helped fix our healthcare system'. He quickly became heated, immediately turned aggressive - yelling something to the effect of "YOU WOULD STEAL MY MONEY AND GIVE IT TO A [racial derogatory term omitted?!"... He then proceeded to pull his knife off his belt and wave it towards me in a threatening manner while continuing to rant about me being a Nazi, before stabbing the knife into a counter and walking off in a huff as he continued to cuss me out... We are an interesting and odd mix here in the states...
dbuder 13y ago
Why don't you go to Pakistan? Because that will get me on your list!
davidp 13y ago
Gen. Alexander, Obama, Bush, Feinstein, all these people's arguments basically boil down to "trust us." I always want to ask those people this question: Sure, maybe you're a trustworthy, good man. What mechanism is in place to guarantee that the next person is? And the next one? And the person after that? Without an external mechanism -- as external as the courts are to the Justice Department -- we're putting our trust in men and not in laws. This nation's foundation is the rule of law, not the rule of men. "Trust us" only works when there's another trusted adversary overseeing the trusted, who are themselves subject to scrutiny.
- snitko 13y ago
  There's a fundamental flaw with this idea. The existence of multiple participants in the chain of decision making doesn't make it secure and trustworthy. If those participants have little to risk or lose anything by being corrupt, then it doesn't matter how many of them there are, they'll find ways to hack it. You can't just call a judge trustworthy because he's a judge and he's supposed to be honest and uncorrupt. If you ask me, I'd say that judges should probably be even more corrupt, since they don't even risk losing their seat. In order for trust to work, a price tag should be put on it. That's why it works so great in business: if you give money to Apple and they don't deliver you your iPhone, their reputation would be severely damaged and they might lose a lot of money as a result. With politicians it doesn't work this way, because the maximum they can lose is their seat, and even then they just go and work for some company as a lobbyist.
  - davidp 13y ago
    I agree with most of your points actually. It's the problem that I was addressing with "who are themselves subject to scrutiny"; note that somehow we find that corrupt judges are the exception rather than the rule, in no small part because we are able to publicly examine their work. So the idea of a secret court poses its own especially difficult problems. On the other hand, it's impossible to have a society anything like ours if you build around zero-trust systems. If you say that fundamentally nobody in power can be trusted, for any length of time and under any system of checks and balances, then you may as well advocate true anarchy or survival-of-the-fittest.
mpyne 13y ago
See, why can't all those who oppose the NSA be as well-meaning as Ms. Granick here? She makes a lot of great points and honestly I'd probably agree more with her on this article than with Gen. Alexander.
rdl 13y ago
I find it somewhat insulting that he pulled the "go to Pakistan" card, given that we're generally arguing about domestic spying, not spying in specific target countries.

97 points by sinak 13y ago

deleted 13y ago

[deleted]

The stunning thing to me is that Gen. Alexander clearly sees this at least partially as a left/right issue, or at least that was his game at this dinner. In fact, most of the left-leaning people I know, with the exception of the civil libertarian leftist, have been averting their eyes from the whole surveillance issue now that Obama is in office. The left and right are hand-in-hand together in this. The only people opposing it are the civil libertarians on the left and the libertarians on the right, both with equal conviction. So the fact that he attributes her concern to being "to the left of Sen. Wyden" is very interesting and tell me a lot about his worldview. And yet so many Democrat leftist have been defending this program (or at least ignoring it) and going after Greenwald with an energy unseen from the right. Some thinking Democrats may be finally waking up to the threat this poses to our democracy, regardless of who is now in office, but the majority of them still are standing behind Obama (see recent vote on defunding the NSA surveilance program).

jacquesm 13y ago
The easy explanation here is that both the Democrats and the Republicans in the United States are 'right of center', America at present does not have a functional 'left', just the illusion of one.
- guns 13y ago
  No, this issue neither falls on the "left" or "right"; it is better framed as the tension between central authority vs personal liberty. Both progressives on the left and conservatives on the right ask the government to regulate and control different aspects of society.َ† George Washington was widely praised for disbanding the Continental Army after dispelling the British, and also declined a third term as President despite unflagging adoration from the public. Times have changed, and some of this idealism has perhaps been lost to pragmatism over the years, but this is the golden legacy that the General and the other officers of the Executive are willfully squandering in the pursuit of a few terrorists. † Hence the old joke that progressives want the government in their business but out of their bedroom, and conservatives want government out of their business, but in their bedroom.
  - mpyne 13y ago
    Indeed, this is far different than just a left/right thing. Assange, for instance, has been pushing a lot of these disclosures but he is not a leftist. He denies climate change, opposes unions (and social entitlements in general) and says the best politicians in the U.S. Congress are in the libertarian wing of the G.O.P. Note that I'm not trying to denigrate his political views... just agreeing with you that it's not as simple as left-wing/right-wing. Just because you believe in 'no secrets' doesn't mean you believe in the workers controlling the means of production.
zachrose 13y ago
Similarly, I'm surprised that I haven't heard about much overlap between 2nd Amendment groups and those concerned about NSA surveillance. What's the use is your stockpile of assault rifles if all your communications are tapped?
- presidentender 13y ago
  I am a state-level leader in a firearms education group that the SPLC characterizes as a militia. Every individual instructor I've worked with has spoken out against this overreach.
  - rdl 13y ago
    Now I'm curious, which group gets this honor?
    - presidentender 13y ago
      It's called Project Appleseed. There certainly are some people involved with whom I disagree, but the stated goals of civic engagement, firearms safety, and political neutrality are things I can get behind.
      - rdl 13y ago
        Uh, wtf. That's approximately as threatening a group as the Boy Scouts. SPLC is crazy, now I have to question the rest of their work.
        presidentender 13y ago
        As dragonwriter points out, I mislead you: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6263959 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6263959
        rdl 13y ago
        Ah, makes sense. I guess I'm sensitive on the militia issue, because I think it would be awesome to set up a militia to provide the non-combat military services (communications, medical, maintenance, operating airfields, water, etc.) in a post disaster environment -- and doing it in a way with organic security, so you could go in directly to a place like Haiti or even Somalia without delay. The "light infantry fighting in the woods" militia is dumb, though.
dtf 13y ago
Much the same situation in the UK - left and right are remarkably quiet on the issue. Any political party that has held the reins for a term or two has ridden close enough to the devil to know the deal they must make.
seehafer 13y ago
An easier explanation is that most Americans are incredibly tribal in their thinking and how they evaluate the ethics of a particular situation. The left trusts Obama, and didn't trust Bush, and therefore surveillance that would have yielded passionate protest under the latter is A-OK under the former.

analreceiver 13y ago

I do think he is a bad guy and they're always the best at hiding their true intentions. I also think you're naive, more so if you admit he lied to your face.

mrt0mat0 13y ago

I liked the article, but the part i found most interesting was the comment. I just want to point out a flaw in your individual count calculation. Although normal person would have just 40 contacts you forget that some of us call very common number and that lets NSA to connect even more people that 19mil. Even I never met this article author, we are probably connected in less than 3 hops :). If I called Verizon support and author called Verizon support, we are connected. And if some suspect called Verizon support, our phone call history is in that “corporate store” where NSA can query any way they want :). You are absolutely right – evil is in details… so this is a huge loophole. i think every one i know and people i don't have called verizon or comcast. so if someone that is a foreigner makes a call to verizon or comcast, i am now able to be collected on? welcome to the party everyone. i'm in a terrorist bin at the NSA. EDIT: also, i was just thinking: if i want to track someone and all i have is the phone number, why can't i just have someone i know that's overseas call them once? they are now able to be tracked. isn't that a flaw to the system? there is no way this kind of power can be contained.

jnbiche 13y ago
And you better believe that after being harangued by the President and Congress for years following 9/11 to "act more creatively", the Intelligence Community is using exactly these types of loopholes.
eliasmacpherson 13y ago
Are you using a pay as you go mobile? Under that definition, everyone that 'tops up' is connected.
- epoxyhockey 13y ago
  I also receive free text messages from my provider (Edit: e.g. the texts that say 'thank you for paying your bill'). Does that mean that I'm connected to every subscriber on the network that also receives these free texts?
  - eliasmacpherson 13y ago

crummy 13y ago

"I think Gen. Alexander believes that history is made by great individuals standing against evil." I wonder how many people think Edward Snowden would fit this description!

mikegagnon 13y ago

I think the author's most important point is that she sees the NSA Director as a "good man," even though she considers his activities to be criminal and a threat to democracy. I agree with her. I think it is important to realize that authorities aren't necessarily caricatures of evil like Dr. Evil from Austin Powers. I don't believe Gen. Keith Alexander is conspiring to undercut democracy. I believe he is earnest but misguided. And I believe the present institution rewards and promotes those who are earnest and misguided. I believe it is simply an emergent phenomenon. Of course there exist evil people who will intentionally abuse their power for selfish gain. I do not believe though that blatant evil is the dominant force in the world. I think the most common case is that there are just people in power who are trying to do something "good," yet they share different values and concerns than their opponents. How could someone be "good" yet conduct mass surveillance? (1) The belief that terrorism represents a grave threat, (2) the belief that mass surveillance is the best way to combat terrorism, and (3) the belief that their implementation of mass surveillance doesn't represent a significant threat to civil liberties. This is important to consider when you oppose someone's actions and policies. It won't be productive to assume your opponent is evil. Rather, it will be better to have an honest intellectual discussion and debate about your values and the pragmatic dangers of secrecy and mass surveillance.

joezydeco 13y ago
This one line "The General seemed convinced that if only I knew what he knew, I would agree with him." Makes me think back to that Daniel Ellsberg article where he's briefing Kissinger for the first time about having access to the whole of the USA's intelligence banks: "First, you'll be exhilarated by some of this new information, and by having it all — so much! incredible! — suddenly available to you. But second, almost as fast, you will feel like a fool for having studied, written, talked about these subjects, criticized and analyzed decisions made by presidents for years without having known of the existence of all this information, which presidents and others had and you didn't, and which must have influenced their decisions in ways you couldn't even guess. In particular, you'll feel foolish for having literally rubbed shoulders for over a decade with some officials and consultants who did have access to all this information you didn't know about and didn't know they had, and you'll be stunned that they kept that secret from you so well." [1] http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2010/02/daniel-ellsberg-limitations-knowledge http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2010/02/daniel-ellsber...

waterlion 13y ago

This thing about hastily stating how much you love your country seems bizarre. I don't know if it's a uniquely American thing but to British ears it always seems odd. It seems like a constant struggle to reassure patriotism in a way that suggests that the 'battle' for liberty and freedom of expression is lost, in the same way that self-censorship does (is it a McCarthyist hang-over?).

jacquesm 13y ago
It may simply be to find a justification for ones actions which when not seen through some kind of rosy lens might cause one to self-reflect and ask pointed questions.
mattezell 13y ago
This is just my opinion - purely conjecture based on my own experiences.. As someone who has done the very thing that you are questioning, I know that the following have somewhat been a motivation for me... It is a very common tactic in interpersonal political debate/discussion in the U.S. for one side to discredit another's opinion by quickly painting their sentiments as "anti-American" or "anti-patriotic" - I've generally seen this tactic put into play by our right-leaning conservatives. I think that the 'disclaimer' of stating that you are in fact a patriot is often merely an attempt to derail the oft-used "SEE - YOU'RE A FREAKING LIBERAL COMMUNIST WHO HATES PUPPIES, KITTENS AND AMERICA! YOUR OPINIONS ARE NOW INVALID!" As sad as it is to say, political debates in the U.S. are rarely about what's ultimately right or wrong... It's a contest and it's about winning... Not for everyone, mind you - I'd far rather lose a debate than defend an incorrect point - but for a lot of people, it's about yelling louder and forcing the other to concede. Case in point.. Years ago, I worked in a field that exposed me to A LOT of military - active and retired... In a "friendly" discussion regarding socialized healthcare with a person I admired and respected, I stated that I was 'ok with paying more taxes if it helped fix our healthcare system'. He quickly became heated, immediately turned aggressive - yelling something to the effect of "YOU WOULD STEAL MY MONEY AND GIVE IT TO A [racial derogatory term omitted?!"... He then proceeded to pull his knife off his belt and wave it towards me in a threatening manner while continuing to rant about me being a Nazi, before stabbing the knife into a counter and walking off in a huff as he continued to cuss me out... We are an interesting and odd mix here in the states...

dbuder 13y ago

Why don't you go to Pakistan? Because that will get me on your list!

davidp 13y ago

Gen. Alexander, Obama, Bush, Feinstein, all these people's arguments basically boil down to "trust us." I always want to ask those people this question: Sure, maybe you're a trustworthy, good man. What mechanism is in place to guarantee that the next person is? And the next one? And the person after that? Without an external mechanism -- as external as the courts are to the Justice Department -- we're putting our trust in men and not in laws. This nation's foundation is the rule of law, not the rule of men. "Trust us" only works when there's another trusted adversary overseeing the trusted, who are themselves subject to scrutiny.

snitko 13y ago
There's a fundamental flaw with this idea. The existence of multiple participants in the chain of decision making doesn't make it secure and trustworthy. If those participants have little to risk or lose anything by being corrupt, then it doesn't matter how many of them there are, they'll find ways to hack it. You can't just call a judge trustworthy because he's a judge and he's supposed to be honest and uncorrupt. If you ask me, I'd say that judges should probably be even more corrupt, since they don't even risk losing their seat. In order for trust to work, a price tag should be put on it. That's why it works so great in business: if you give money to Apple and they don't deliver you your iPhone, their reputation would be severely damaged and they might lose a lot of money as a result. With politicians it doesn't work this way, because the maximum they can lose is their seat, and even then they just go and work for some company as a lobbyist.
- davidp 13y ago
  I agree with most of your points actually. It's the problem that I was addressing with "who are themselves subject to scrutiny"; note that somehow we find that corrupt judges are the exception rather than the rule, in no small part because we are able to publicly examine their work. So the idea of a secret court poses its own especially difficult problems. On the other hand, it's impossible to have a society anything like ours if you build around zero-trust systems. If you say that fundamentally nobody in power can be trusted, for any length of time and under any system of checks and balances, then you may as well advocate true anarchy or survival-of-the-fittest.

mpyne 13y ago

See, why can't all those who oppose the NSA be as well-meaning as Ms. Granick here? She makes a lot of great points and honestly I'd probably agree more with her on this article than with Gen. Alexander.

rdl 13y ago

I find it somewhat insulting that he pulled the "go to Pakistan" card, given that we're generally arguing about domestic spying, not spying in specific target countries.