8 ms·

>overpriced every other basic commodity of human existence. I'm a starving grad student who lives a block from the mentioned, The Mill. I can't afford anything

by toufka 13y ago

>overpriced every other basic commodity of human existence. I'm a starving grad student who lives a block from the mentioned, The Mill. I can't afford anything of quality traditionally associated with prosperity (car, house, family, etc.). But I can afford quality of the quotidian - headphones, breakfast, coffee, shoes, beer. And so I spend on those things instead - because there's no way I will ever be able to even afford a crappy car in this city. And the quality is better in SF. It's true, there is always someone willing to sell you a $10x priced version of what you just bought if you want to be the sucker. But SF actually does a pretty good job at giving you what you pay for. You do pay a lot - but you get the best damned toast and coffee in the country. If you just wanted 'some toast and coffee' you should have gone across the street to Eddies - because that exists too. The result is you get fantastic experimentation at the very cutting edge of even the quotidian. Not only does the bay area churn out Musks & Jobs', but we also churn out the Bakers & the Mas - who can make us the best bread and clothes the world has seen, at a price I can afford, blocks from my home. And such places exist because the community is willing to support them. The art of breadmaking has died in the rest of the country because of the race to the supermarkets' bottom. I think it's extraordinary that the SF population supports the common arts even at personal cost. I think this particular (non-)problem is distinct from the expulsion of culture happening because of the commute/rent issues facing the city.

rayiner 13y ago
You're deluded if you think San Francisco has the best bread or coffee in the world. I don't even know what to tell you. Hint: because of astronomical rents in the city, anything you buy for say $X will use lower quality inputs than a comparable thing you buy for $X somewhere else. It's a necessary economic fact. Businesses have to break even, at least, and in the face of high rents they have to skimp elsewhere. If you want something legit, head north to Portland. The low rents there mean that real artisans can afford to put out quality product while still pricing their wares within market ranges.
- toufka 13y ago
  If you can make bread in Ohio, but the people will only pay $1 a slice, there is no way your margins will support you buying a $100,000 oven to bake in, fresh grains to mill yourself, and a highly-educated person to reason out modern recipes. You have to compete with Safeway. Same with espresso & espresso machines. If you can sell your bread for $4 a slice in SF, all of a sudden (even with the high rent), you can now afford those very real improvements to the art. There are lines out the door at The Mill - and the very reason this story was written was because they are selling their wares at market ranges. But they're selling wares produced with top quality resources, produced by top quality artisans. The beauty of The Mill, mentioned - is the baking is done all in the open in front of the customers. If they tried to use substandard ingredients, honey not from local farms, a poorly functioning oven, or otherwise tried to reduce their quality to what is found elsewhere their customers would not return. At the end of the day, the margins are probably similar, but you have a lot more capital to work with in SF.
  - StandardFuture 13y ago
    Wrong. Any sane capitalist would produce the cheap bread if it sells just as well and pocket the profits.
    - malandrew 13y ago
      Not everyone puts capitalism ahead of their passion. Many small business owners got into doing what they do because they are passionate about making whatever it is they make or providing whatever service they really care about. When that happens, you get an individuals that is capable of balancing his own economic interest with his own interest for self-actualization.
  - rayiner 13y ago
    Median HHI in San Francisco is only 37% above the national median, so you're not getting away with charging 4x as much for bread (though your rent may easily be that much higher). Also, a $100k oven and "highly-educated" bakers sounds more industrial than artisan... Manhattan has far more and far richer rich people than San Francisco, and I can't think of anyone there who would say that the best bread in the city is at some high-end place that can afford expensive equipment. And New Yorkers love to overpay for things!
beachstartup 13y ago
that's cool man. you should check out new york, and los angeles. i hear they are up-and-coming these days.
- angersock 13y ago
  nah thats basically flyover country they dont even have vcs
arjn 13y ago
I cannot stay silent here. The coffee in Portland is superior to SF. (Yes I've tried multiple options in both places). I'd say that even the food options are about par - with Portland being cheaper.

by toufka 13y ago

rayiner 13y ago

You're deluded if you think San Francisco has the best bread or coffee in the world. I don't even know what to tell you. Hint: because of astronomical rents in the city, anything you buy for say $X will use lower quality inputs than a comparable thing you buy for $X somewhere else. It's a necessary economic fact. Businesses have to break even, at least, and in the face of high rents they have to skimp elsewhere. If you want something legit, head north to Portland. The low rents there mean that real artisans can afford to put out quality product while still pricing their wares within market ranges.

toufka 13y ago
If you can make bread in Ohio, but the people will only pay $1 a slice, there is no way your margins will support you buying a $100,000 oven to bake in, fresh grains to mill yourself, and a highly-educated person to reason out modern recipes. You have to compete with Safeway. Same with espresso & espresso machines. If you can sell your bread for $4 a slice in SF, all of a sudden (even with the high rent), you can now afford those very real improvements to the art. There are lines out the door at The Mill - and the very reason this story was written was because they are selling their wares at market ranges. But they're selling wares produced with top quality resources, produced by top quality artisans. The beauty of The Mill, mentioned - is the baking is done all in the open in front of the customers. If they tried to use substandard ingredients, honey not from local farms, a poorly functioning oven, or otherwise tried to reduce their quality to what is found elsewhere their customers would not return. At the end of the day, the margins are probably similar, but you have a lot more capital to work with in SF.
- StandardFuture 13y ago
  Wrong. Any sane capitalist would produce the cheap bread if it sells just as well and pocket the profits.
  - malandrew 13y ago
    Not everyone puts capitalism ahead of their passion. Many small business owners got into doing what they do because they are passionate about making whatever it is they make or providing whatever service they really care about. When that happens, you get an individuals that is capable of balancing his own economic interest with his own interest for self-actualization.
- rayiner 13y ago
  Median HHI in San Francisco is only 37% above the national median, so you're not getting away with charging 4x as much for bread (though your rent may easily be that much higher). Also, a $100k oven and "highly-educated" bakers sounds more industrial than artisan... Manhattan has far more and far richer rich people than San Francisco, and I can't think of anyone there who would say that the best bread in the city is at some high-end place that can afford expensive equipment. And New Yorkers love to overpay for things!

beachstartup 13y ago

that's cool man. you should check out new york, and los angeles. i hear they are up-and-coming these days.

angersock 13y ago
nah thats basically flyover country they dont even have vcs

arjn 13y ago

I cannot stay silent here. The coffee in Portland is superior to SF. (Yes I've tried multiple options in both places). I'd say that even the food options are about par - with Portland being cheaper.