4 ms·

Government and the Internet

120 points by sama 13y ago

devx 13y ago
> 2. Communication and publication can’t be censored. Wikileaks, the Arab Spring, and Snowden’s revelations all depend on governments being unable to prevent mass dissemination of information. I'm a little scared that if things are allowed to continue, the NSA will get such deep level access to the web, that they will be able to censor information anywhere, in real time. They already say they want to be the "anti-virus of the Internet" or something along those lines. If they will ever be able to do what they claim now, then they'll probably be able to censor information, too. I don't know if they actually have that capability or not, but at least that's what they say when they lobby the government for new laws and bigger budgets. So think about what happened in DoD, where they said employees can't read TheGuardian because their computers don't have the clearance level required to learn about those things. Now extend that to the world (given that they have the capability). How hard would it be for them to say "sorry, world Internet users - you don't have the required clearance level to view those leaked documents", and censor the information for everyone. What happened with the Snowden leaks now, simply won't be possible anymore in the future, if their power over the Internet becomes that great.
- ihsw 13y ago
  Indeed, real-time data mining is very interesting, however real-time data manipulation is far more sinister. Imagine for a moment if the middle eastern governments could "detect" when an Arab Spring is happening and they had systems that would autonomously respond by (for example) spreading propaganda and censoring popular pages. The anti-virus comparison is a misnomer as it stands to reason that such systems would be more akin to intrusion detection systems (IDSs) or intrusion prevention systems (IPSs) that are actively monitoring and isolating certain system resources and services.
  - knowaveragejoe 13y ago
    While scary, I think such a system is a long ways off. It's one thing to siphon raw bits flowing through an IXP for later analysis, and another entirely to censor specific pieces of content based on keywords(assuming of course you can't or don't want to simply censor entire domains). It would require a pretty cozy relationship between government and telecoms(already in place in some countries, of course) in the form of some staff to keep afoot of new content that may need to be censored. Automating that part implies that the government would have a list of sensitive, potentially damning subjects that are not publicly known in order to preemptively censor them. Replacing that content with propaganda would be even more complex(and potentially vulnerable to discovery).
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
  - grecy 13y ago
    The UK Government has already considered shutting down Twitter when it needs to [1] and I Think it's common knowledge that certain cell towers are turned off when a local hot spot of political action pops up (Occupy). If you remove a person's ability to access information, that's the same as censorship. [1] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8705281/Scotland-Yard-considered-shutting-down-Twitter.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8705281/Scotlan...
- grecy 13y ago
  > I'm a little scared that if things are allowed to continue, the NSA will get such deep level access to the web, that they will be able to censor information anywhere, in real time. Instead of actively censoring or manipulating information, I imagine they could certainly just make it go away. Let's say you an I are emailing or texting back and forward about a particular leak or topic, surely the NSA could make some of those emails/texts never be delivered, thus severing our line of communication. If they were picky about this, I would just think you never replied, not that someone was manipulating our communication channel.
- state 13y ago
  I'd say it's your tacit responsibility, simply because of your concern, to build tools to resist the outcome you're worried about. It's imaginable that we will live in a future with good encryption and privacy controls.
maw 13y ago
Well laid out. My only quarrel is this: is point 10 really anything new?
- sophacles 13y ago
  None of it's really new, or insightful (as the author himself points out), but it is a nice gathering of thoughts on the matter, useful given the recent heavy inclusion of internet in public policy issues, and it's importance to average people's usage of the internet.
sophacles 13y ago
One thing I think worth highlighting is the opening sentence. It is true that the internet and the government have been conflicting in various ways from the get-go. In point 11 he talks about the differences between industry inside knowledge and government's framework for reasoning about tech lacking in several ways. I think there is also an interesting intersection of the public's framework for reasoning about both government and the internet that is finally starting to be a stress point. Only in the last few of years have we seen the general public starting to become aware of how much government (non)action in the internet space is a big deal. Recent stories on the NSA, Snowden, Manning, etc, and the Arab Spring have really pushed the awareness of government actions in the internet into the general public awareness. I remember previous things like DMCA and ECTRA did not make a real blip on the general public's radar. More recently however, things like SOPA were heavily discussed outside of tech circles. Public discourse is really a place we should make our industry insider status heard as much as to/within government, and now is the time it matters. Amusingly, the inverse is also true: more political articles have been finding their way to HN lately, because suddenly general political discourse is extremely intertwined with internet policy and tech issues.
BrandonMarc 13y ago
2. Communication and publication can’t be censored. Except in places it can. * Turkey vs. YouTube and some Google features * Iran vs. social, video, and news sites * China vs. ... well, damn near everybody * the US is even in on the act (thanks, DMCA) See this article for more (and of course, that article hasn't been censored ... right?) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship This page has a decent map giving a gauge of just how much censorship is judged to be happening in a given location: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_by_country http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_by_country ... along with a plethora of details about each country's activities. There's a link to a full page for each country, and -- sadly -- it's too much to even try summarizing here. What's troubling is that the censorship is not decreasing, but increasing. Technologies to get around it are improving, sure, but the technologies to censor in the first places are spreading and improving as well. The point is - there's no certainty that eventually free speech on the internet will prevail and censors (or even a fraction of them) will give up.
thufry 13y ago
People who spend a lot of time working with and thinking about the Internet, and not a lot of time working with and thinking about government, often fall victim to the delusion that the Internet somehow "changes everything." It's not true in the slightest. Governments have consolidated, maintained, and lost power since the dawn of civilization. They have marshaled popular support, quashed dissenters, and brutalized their enemies. They have taken major societal changes (Industrial Revolution, advent of firearms, invention of broadcast media) and harnessed them for the perpetuation of their own power. Governments will continue to use their central power, the power of violence, to maintain the general framework under which their power endures. The Internet won't change that at all.
- szuhanchang 13y ago
  I think this is THE crucial point - as long as governments have a monopoly on violence / physical force, the power of the Internet is a mere sliver in comparison.
smutticus 13y ago
If you're interested in this subject further I suggest you pick up 'Networks and States' by Martin Mueller, 2010, MIT Press. I can't recommend this book enough for anyone interested in understanding how the internet is transforming our idea of the nation state.
tomelders 13y ago
I suppose this article puts into words something that I (and I suspect many others) 'feel' without articulating: That we're a global community now and I can't possibly think any other way now†. The things that happen in America or Syria or Egypt or New Zealand or Australia affect me emotionally and they feel personal. They affect me because the web makes me feel like the person who's experience or opinion I an listening to is my neighbour. On the Internet, Syria is a few doors down from my house. And I think this is a good thing. We all individually exist on a web in which we are all compatible. But we live on a planet of nation states that are incompatible with each other. And if anything had to change in this scenario, I would personally rather see the nation states disappear. But then (in my opinion) there do need to be laws, and there has to be a model for those laws. So now there's another problem, whose ideals and morality should win out? The USA's? The UK's? China's? The fact that the web is largely lawless is what I think makes it work. So perhaps the global community can prescribe it's own laws. But this is getting off my point. My point is, perhaps it should be less about "how governments control the web" and more about "How do we transition to a world without governments". If I'm right in that thinking, the web is not just a threat to nasty nations, it's a threat to the good ones too (if there are any). If there is a transition from nation states to a planet unified by the web, with a governance that is an emergent property of the web, then there will be pain associated with that transition. But considering the shit we put up with these days, I think it's a price worth paying. † If I hadn't seen such riches, I could live with being poor.
- Gormo 13y ago
  > And if anything had to change in this scenario, I would personally rather see the nation states disappear. I'd agree with you here, but what I'm afraid is that with the absence of modern nation-states, we'd get a fewer number of more centralized political institutions, rather than moving towards the ideal of more numerous decentralized and autonomous polities. When you say: > And I think this is a good thing. We all individually exist on a web in which we are all compatible. I get what you're going for here, but there's a great danger that this could be misinterpreted as a call for universalism, as some sort of idea that everyone's the same and distinctions should all be flattened or ignored. If we treat the world as an open space within which we can coordinate our own ad-hoc communities and polities based on mutual compatibility, where it exists, without being constrained by artificial boundaries, we'll all be better off. But if we don't have the facility for mapping out and adhering to natural social boundaries that emerge from manifest differences in worldviews, values, intentions, and ambitions, then we'll end up with lots of incompatible ambitions attempting to realize themselves in the same space, and that can only lead to stasis and conflict. > whose ideals and morality should win out? Everyone's. If the interconnected world isn't a platform in which everyone can construct their lives on the basis of their own values, and evolve new communities whose boundaries are defined by something more substantive than mere geographical proximity, then it just becomes an impetus to all-or-nothing conflict, which will surely ruin the world for everyone.

120 points by sama 13y ago

devx 13y ago

> 2. Communication and publication can’t be censored. Wikileaks, the Arab Spring, and Snowden’s revelations all depend on governments being unable to prevent mass dissemination of information. I'm a little scared that if things are allowed to continue, the NSA will get such deep level access to the web, that they will be able to censor information anywhere, in real time. They already say they want to be the "anti-virus of the Internet" or something along those lines. If they will ever be able to do what they claim now, then they'll probably be able to censor information, too. I don't know if they actually have that capability or not, but at least that's what they say when they lobby the government for new laws and bigger budgets. So think about what happened in DoD, where they said employees can't read TheGuardian because their computers don't have the clearance level required to learn about those things. Now extend that to the world (given that they have the capability). How hard would it be for them to say "sorry, world Internet users - you don't have the required clearance level to view those leaked documents", and censor the information for everyone. What happened with the Snowden leaks now, simply won't be possible anymore in the future, if their power over the Internet becomes that great.

ihsw 13y ago
Indeed, real-time data mining is very interesting, however real-time data manipulation is far more sinister. Imagine for a moment if the middle eastern governments could "detect" when an Arab Spring is happening and they had systems that would autonomously respond by (for example) spreading propaganda and censoring popular pages. The anti-virus comparison is a misnomer as it stands to reason that such systems would be more akin to intrusion detection systems (IDSs) or intrusion prevention systems (IPSs) that are actively monitoring and isolating certain system resources and services.
- knowaveragejoe 13y ago
  While scary, I think such a system is a long ways off. It's one thing to siphon raw bits flowing through an IXP for later analysis, and another entirely to censor specific pieces of content based on keywords(assuming of course you can't or don't want to simply censor entire domains). It would require a pretty cozy relationship between government and telecoms(already in place in some countries, of course) in the form of some staff to keep afoot of new content that may need to be censored. Automating that part implies that the government would have a list of sensitive, potentially damning subjects that are not publicly known in order to preemptively censor them. Replacing that content with propaganda would be even more complex(and potentially vulnerable to discovery).
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
- grecy 13y ago
  The UK Government has already considered shutting down Twitter when it needs to [1] and I Think it's common knowledge that certain cell towers are turned off when a local hot spot of political action pops up (Occupy). If you remove a person's ability to access information, that's the same as censorship. [1] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8705281/Scotland-Yard-considered-shutting-down-Twitter.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8705281/Scotlan...
grecy 13y ago
> I'm a little scared that if things are allowed to continue, the NSA will get such deep level access to the web, that they will be able to censor information anywhere, in real time. Instead of actively censoring or manipulating information, I imagine they could certainly just make it go away. Let's say you an I are emailing or texting back and forward about a particular leak or topic, surely the NSA could make some of those emails/texts never be delivered, thus severing our line of communication. If they were picky about this, I would just think you never replied, not that someone was manipulating our communication channel.
state 13y ago
I'd say it's your tacit responsibility, simply because of your concern, to build tools to resist the outcome you're worried about. It's imaginable that we will live in a future with good encryption and privacy controls.

maw 13y ago

Well laid out. My only quarrel is this: is point 10 really anything new?

sophacles 13y ago
None of it's really new, or insightful (as the author himself points out), but it is a nice gathering of thoughts on the matter, useful given the recent heavy inclusion of internet in public policy issues, and it's importance to average people's usage of the internet.

sophacles 13y ago

One thing I think worth highlighting is the opening sentence. It is true that the internet and the government have been conflicting in various ways from the get-go. In point 11 he talks about the differences between industry inside knowledge and government's framework for reasoning about tech lacking in several ways. I think there is also an interesting intersection of the public's framework for reasoning about both government and the internet that is finally starting to be a stress point. Only in the last few of years have we seen the general public starting to become aware of how much government (non)action in the internet space is a big deal. Recent stories on the NSA, Snowden, Manning, etc, and the Arab Spring have really pushed the awareness of government actions in the internet into the general public awareness. I remember previous things like DMCA and ECTRA did not make a real blip on the general public's radar. More recently however, things like SOPA were heavily discussed outside of tech circles. Public discourse is really a place we should make our industry insider status heard as much as to/within government, and now is the time it matters. Amusingly, the inverse is also true: more political articles have been finding their way to HN lately, because suddenly general political discourse is extremely intertwined with internet policy and tech issues.

BrandonMarc 13y ago

2. Communication and publication can’t be censored. Except in places it can. * Turkey vs. YouTube and some Google features * Iran vs. social, video, and news sites * China vs. ... well, damn near everybody * the US is even in on the act (thanks, DMCA) See this article for more (and of course, that article hasn't been censored ... right?) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship This page has a decent map giving a gauge of just how much censorship is judged to be happening in a given location: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_by_country http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_by_country ... along with a plethora of details about each country's activities. There's a link to a full page for each country, and -- sadly -- it's too much to even try summarizing here. What's troubling is that the censorship is not decreasing, but increasing. Technologies to get around it are improving, sure, but the technologies to censor in the first places are spreading and improving as well. The point is - there's no certainty that eventually free speech on the internet will prevail and censors (or even a fraction of them) will give up.

thufry 13y ago

People who spend a lot of time working with and thinking about the Internet, and not a lot of time working with and thinking about government, often fall victim to the delusion that the Internet somehow "changes everything." It's not true in the slightest. Governments have consolidated, maintained, and lost power since the dawn of civilization. They have marshaled popular support, quashed dissenters, and brutalized their enemies. They have taken major societal changes (Industrial Revolution, advent of firearms, invention of broadcast media) and harnessed them for the perpetuation of their own power. Governments will continue to use their central power, the power of violence, to maintain the general framework under which their power endures. The Internet won't change that at all.

szuhanchang 13y ago
I think this is THE crucial point - as long as governments have a monopoly on violence / physical force, the power of the Internet is a mere sliver in comparison.

smutticus 13y ago

If you're interested in this subject further I suggest you pick up 'Networks and States' by Martin Mueller, 2010, MIT Press. I can't recommend this book enough for anyone interested in understanding how the internet is transforming our idea of the nation state.

tomelders 13y ago

I suppose this article puts into words something that I (and I suspect many others) 'feel' without articulating: That we're a global community now and I can't possibly think any other way now†. The things that happen in America or Syria or Egypt or New Zealand or Australia affect me emotionally and they feel personal. They affect me because the web makes me feel like the person who's experience or opinion I an listening to is my neighbour. On the Internet, Syria is a few doors down from my house. And I think this is a good thing. We all individually exist on a web in which we are all compatible. But we live on a planet of nation states that are incompatible with each other. And if anything had to change in this scenario, I would personally rather see the nation states disappear. But then (in my opinion) there do need to be laws, and there has to be a model for those laws. So now there's another problem, whose ideals and morality should win out? The USA's? The UK's? China's? The fact that the web is largely lawless is what I think makes it work. So perhaps the global community can prescribe it's own laws. But this is getting off my point. My point is, perhaps it should be less about "how governments control the web" and more about "How do we transition to a world without governments". If I'm right in that thinking, the web is not just a threat to nasty nations, it's a threat to the good ones too (if there are any). If there is a transition from nation states to a planet unified by the web, with a governance that is an emergent property of the web, then there will be pain associated with that transition. But considering the shit we put up with these days, I think it's a price worth paying. † If I hadn't seen such riches, I could live with being poor.

Gormo 13y ago
> And if anything had to change in this scenario, I would personally rather see the nation states disappear. I'd agree with you here, but what I'm afraid is that with the absence of modern nation-states, we'd get a fewer number of more centralized political institutions, rather than moving towards the ideal of more numerous decentralized and autonomous polities. When you say: > And I think this is a good thing. We all individually exist on a web in which we are all compatible. I get what you're going for here, but there's a great danger that this could be misinterpreted as a call for universalism, as some sort of idea that everyone's the same and distinctions should all be flattened or ignored. If we treat the world as an open space within which we can coordinate our own ad-hoc communities and polities based on mutual compatibility, where it exists, without being constrained by artificial boundaries, we'll all be better off. But if we don't have the facility for mapping out and adhering to natural social boundaries that emerge from manifest differences in worldviews, values, intentions, and ambitions, then we'll end up with lots of incompatible ambitions attempting to realize themselves in the same space, and that can only lead to stasis and conflict. > whose ideals and morality should win out? Everyone's. If the interconnected world isn't a platform in which everyone can construct their lives on the basis of their own values, and evolve new communities whose boundaries are defined by something more substantive than mere geographical proximity, then it just becomes an impetus to all-or-nothing conflict, which will surely ruin the world for everyone.