30 ms·

29% of Bay Area's particulate air pollution comes from across the Pacific (2010)

77 points by balsam 13y ago

ars 13y ago
If we want to do anything about CO2 and pollution in the atmosphere, the low hanging fruit is China. Every country has stuff it can do, but China is on the 80% side of the 80/20 rule.
- softbuilder 13y ago
  I wonder if there will ever be a war over something like this.
  - Someone 13y ago
    Water, not CO2, and less of it, not more, but I think that does rate as "something like this": http://missingpeace.eu/en/2013/06/egyptian-cabinet-discuss-war-against-israel-over-nile-crisis/ http://missingpeace.eu/en/2013/06/egyptian-cabinet-discuss-w... (Ethiopia is building a hydro-electric dam; filling its lake will mean less water will flow into Egypt for a while; seehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Ethiopian_Renaissance_Dam#Impact_on_Sudan_and_Egypt http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Ethiopian_Renaissance_Dam... ) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_conflict http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_conflict http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_conflict_between_Ethiopia_and_Kenya http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_conflict_between_Ethiopia...
  - ktd 13y ago
    Somehow I doubt full-scale military action is conducive to lowered emissions.
  - veidr 13y ago
    Probably not any time soon, because at present that would mean going to war with China. I live in Tokyo, which is obviously a lot closer to China than the Bay Area is, and here we have PM 2.5 pollution reports on the news a lot like the regular weather report. On the worst days I throw on a 3M respirator[1] before I ride my bike across town, which makes me look like a character from some kind of post-apocalypse video game. I am glad to see articles like this, because hopefully hard numbers will provide a concrete basis for diplomatic/economic pressure to make it better. Even if the Chinese leaders are willing to pursue economic growth even at the tremendous cost of making the air in Beijing[2] so bad that (rich) kids go to preschool in pressurized tents, I don't want to have to keep my kid indoors all the way across the Sea of Japan in Tokyo -- but on the worst days, we do (on the advice of the pediatrician). (In that sense, I am selfishly glad it is reaching the US west coast -- because the US has a lot more leverage to influence China's behavior than does Japan.) [1]: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001NDN29O/ref=s9_qpp_gw_p60_d99_ir01?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-7&pf_rd_r=14A8GFPJBK6C2ESC1XQH&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938451&pf_rd_i=507846 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001NDN29O/ref=s9_qpp_gw_p6... [2]: https://www.google.com/search?q=beijing+air&client=safari&rls=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=NWIUUsuKLo2rkgW1wIDYBg&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=914&bih=778 https://www.google.com/search?q=beijing+air&client=safari&rl...
    - rdl 13y ago
      I wonder if this will raise the value of land in Western China (or west of China), out of the pollution stream.
      - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
        Even Kunming has pollution that is considered bad (though much better than east China). I don't think the environment gets much better in Kazakhstan, they are still industrializing. Once you hit Iran, it is almost as bad as China.
- Uchikoma 13y ago
  The low hanging fruit is always getting others doing something. I for myself see the low hanging fruits with the things I can do or influence.
  - prawn 13y ago
    Perhaps "local hanging fruit"? ;)
  - ars 13y ago
    Honestly there isn't much you can do. Most pollution is industrial, and most industrial pollution is not in the US. Recycling just causes more pollution, so that doesn't help. You can turn lights off and install CFL's, but the difference is tiny. Riding a bike vs driving actually causes more pollution (because farms make lots of pollution) [unless you replace exercise you anyway do with bike riding]. Coal burning in China is so bad that anything you can do is so utterly dwarfed by it as to almost be pointless.
    - abm82 13y ago
      Emissions per capita in China are well under half of those in the US so something doesn't add up about your post.
      - ars 13y ago
        Emissions of pollution or emissions of CO2? Plus China has a LOT of people, and a TON of them are rural and very poor - it's not exactly the preferred way to reduce emissions (of any kind).
        Volpe 13y ago
        I think the point is, China isn't the one that needs to reduce, it is the US.
        ars 13y ago
        Nope. China. The only reason China has reasonably good numbers is that most of their population lives in miserable poverty.
- rdl 13y ago
  Even lower hanging fruit is the stupid fires in Indonesia (both wildfires and to clear land). We could pay to either employ those farmers in something else, or to upgrade how they manage their land, for cheaper than CO2/pollution savings in US industry.
  - jlgreco 13y ago
    Are wildfires in Indonesia stupid? Some ecosystems rely on periodic naturally occurring wildfires.
    - rdl 13y ago
      They're not naturally occurring, they're set either accidentally or intentionally by humans for the most part, either to clear the land or in the process of stealing stuff (either from plantations, or as plantations, depending on your politics). The scary thing is people are draining the peat bogs; if those catch on fire (peat is a great fuel, basically dirty coal), a lot of carbon goes into the atmosphere which would otherwise have been sequestered for centuries+. I'm fine with small wildfires clearing out fuel in a place which otherwise builds up fuel for bigger fires, but that's not Indonesia.
  - mr_spothawk 13y ago
    CO2 from concrete manufacture is a big issue. Considering that all the buildings being built here are concrete construction, I think China is significantly higher output than a few measly brush fires
    - rdl 13y ago
      There is economic benefit to cement production and concrete construction (theoretically), whereas there is essentially no economic benefit from brush fires, and the savings from slash-and-burn vs. regular clearing is tiny.
tomhschmidt 13y ago
A lot of this pollution is just a remnant from when China's economy was still largely manufacturing-based. Now that this percentage is beginning to change, (mid 30s in mid 2000s down to high 20s now), the government seems earnest in their attempts to curb pollution. See: http://www.businessinsider.com/china-pollution-business-opportunity-2013-8 http://www.businessinsider.com/china-pollution-business-oppo... http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/01/31/china-diesel-standards-idUKL4N0B04LE20130131 http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/01/31/china-diesel-standa...
- seanmcdirmid 13y ago
  Around Beijing, the problem is (1) use of coal as fuel with outdated poorly maintained energy producing equipment, (2) use of coal directly by peasants in the winter to keep warm (in Hebei), and (3) lots of cars with poor fuel quality (even if the emissions equipment is working, they aren't given the right quality of fuel). The solutions are quite simple: upgrade the equipment, get farmers to use natural gas for warming, and import the good black stuff from Saudi, not the cheap bad stuff (Sinopec is evil).
  - tomhschmidt 13y ago
    I prefer to blame 串儿 and excessive 中南海 smokers
    - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
      Blaming the Chuan (outdoor BBQ) vendors is quite funny; I feel like the officials are trying to deflect blame for their black Audi's running on crappy fuel.
  - hkmurakami 13y ago
    and with China's huge investments in Mongolian coal mines, it's not about to get much better any time soon :(
    - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
seanmcdirmid 13y ago
This is an article from 2008 about dust storms from the Gobi travelling across the Pacific; this isn't the main pollution problem in China today. The dust coming in from the Gobi was a result of deforestation and poor land management policies, which were pretty much cleaned up for the Olympics and have remained quite fixed. We haven't had a real dust storm in Beijing since early 2008, I think, and definitely not one in the last 4 years. The PM2.5 today is not carried by dust from the Gobi, but it still exists, of course. Ironically, the overall effect today is much worse than it was in 2008 (maybe because it just stays in Asia now?). I'm not sure if the pollution can still travel across the pacific without the huge dust storms of the past. Here is some more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_Dust http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_Dust All of the info in the article is out of date though. I wish I could find something more up to date. Edit: a recent dust storm in March 2013 that made its way to Japan: * http://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1187348/dust-storms-and-smog-revisit-streets-beijing http://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1187348/dust-storms-a... * http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2013/03/12/national/tokyo-dust-storm-came-complete-with-china-sand/#.UhRoKpIwd8E http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2013/03/12/national/tokyo-d... I remember this, but I didn't think it was particularly bad, at least the sky didn't turn yellow. The air was definitely crappy though, but once it all blew out (well, to Japan), it was quite clean afterwards. Perhaps the solution to China's pollution problems are giant fans (Japan can then build giant robots to destroy these fans).
- hkmurakami 13y ago
  I experienced a dust storm in Japan that started in China back in 2009 or 2010 so I think problems still do exist post-olympics (but perhaps greatly diminished from before? you'd know better than me on this) But I totally agree that the coal residues are the major issue at hand.
  - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
    When I lived in China in 2002, we had more than a few dust storms where the sky would turn completely yellow...it is a bizarre surreal experience. On my recent tour of duty starting in late 2007, I only experienced one dust storm in the spring of 2008, then nothing. I haven't seen one for a very long time, but it could be that they've just solved the problem for Beijing (doubtful, since we are right smack next to Inner Mongolia). This is like the only thing...the only thing...that has gotten better in China while I've been here!
frank_boyd 13y ago
Surprise! Pollution is a global issue, too! It's time to start "thinking humanity", not "my country".
guelo 13y ago
I'm not sure why this study is interesting compared to the much more informative and amazing animation that NASA put out a few years ago, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtJzn8A725w http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtJzn8A725w
jzzskijj 13y ago
If US companies stopped manufacturing their products in China, a part of this air pollution could be handled and prevented domestically. Ha!
gtani 13y ago
2nd or 3rd order related : How much could a growing supply of airborne wildfire soot be contributing to the decline of Greenland's ice reflectivity? How important is soot to amplifying Greenland's melt? http://www.outsideonline.com/adventure-travel/adventure-ethics/Wildfires-and-Ice-Dark-Snow-Climate-Science-Expedition-Field-Book.html http://www.outsideonline.com/adventure-travel/adventure-ethi...
marincounty 13y ago
I truely hope a virus mutates the DNA of human sperm, or eggs; making the world population decline.
- indefatigable 13y ago
  I'm getting a serious Poe's law vibe from this comment and username.
  - mikeash 13y ago
    Benderism: save the world by killing all humans. http://humanities.philosophy.objectivism.narkive.com/SivGxJBl/benderism http://humanities.philosophy.objectivism.narkive.com/SivGxJB...
- rwallace 13y ago
  Most of the time I don't care about the de facto HN rule that only early adopters can downvote comments, but once in a while there's an occasion where it's really bloody annoying.
g123g 13y ago
I would like to see some numbers which tell which places in US are least affected by this kind of external pollution. As pollution from Asia is going to increase, it might make sense to look at these places especially for ppl with breathing issues.

77 points by balsam 13y ago

ars 13y ago

If we want to do anything about CO2 and pollution in the atmosphere, the low hanging fruit is China. Every country has stuff it can do, but China is on the 80% side of the 80/20 rule.

softbuilder 13y ago
I wonder if there will ever be a war over something like this.
- Someone 13y ago
  Water, not CO2, and less of it, not more, but I think that does rate as "something like this": http://missingpeace.eu/en/2013/06/egyptian-cabinet-discuss-war-against-israel-over-nile-crisis/ http://missingpeace.eu/en/2013/06/egyptian-cabinet-discuss-w... (Ethiopia is building a hydro-electric dam; filling its lake will mean less water will flow into Egypt for a while; seehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Ethiopian_Renaissance_Dam#Impact_on_Sudan_and_Egypt http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Ethiopian_Renaissance_Dam... ) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_conflict http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_conflict http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_conflict_between_Ethiopia_and_Kenya http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_conflict_between_Ethiopia...
- ktd 13y ago
  Somehow I doubt full-scale military action is conducive to lowered emissions.
- veidr 13y ago
  Probably not any time soon, because at present that would mean going to war with China. I live in Tokyo, which is obviously a lot closer to China than the Bay Area is, and here we have PM 2.5 pollution reports on the news a lot like the regular weather report. On the worst days I throw on a 3M respirator[1] before I ride my bike across town, which makes me look like a character from some kind of post-apocalypse video game. I am glad to see articles like this, because hopefully hard numbers will provide a concrete basis for diplomatic/economic pressure to make it better. Even if the Chinese leaders are willing to pursue economic growth even at the tremendous cost of making the air in Beijing[2] so bad that (rich) kids go to preschool in pressurized tents, I don't want to have to keep my kid indoors all the way across the Sea of Japan in Tokyo -- but on the worst days, we do (on the advice of the pediatrician). (In that sense, I am selfishly glad it is reaching the US west coast -- because the US has a lot more leverage to influence China's behavior than does Japan.) [1]: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001NDN29O/ref=s9_qpp_gw_p60_d99_ir01?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-7&pf_rd_r=14A8GFPJBK6C2ESC1XQH&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938451&pf_rd_i=507846 http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001NDN29O/ref=s9_qpp_gw_p6... [2]: https://www.google.com/search?q=beijing+air&client=safari&rls=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=NWIUUsuKLo2rkgW1wIDYBg&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=914&bih=778 https://www.google.com/search?q=beijing+air&client=safari&rl...
  - rdl 13y ago
    I wonder if this will raise the value of land in Western China (or west of China), out of the pollution stream.
    - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
      Even Kunming has pollution that is considered bad (though much better than east China). I don't think the environment gets much better in Kazakhstan, they are still industrializing. Once you hit Iran, it is almost as bad as China.
Uchikoma 13y ago
The low hanging fruit is always getting others doing something. I for myself see the low hanging fruits with the things I can do or influence.
- prawn 13y ago
  Perhaps "local hanging fruit"? ;)
- ars 13y ago
  Honestly there isn't much you can do. Most pollution is industrial, and most industrial pollution is not in the US. Recycling just causes more pollution, so that doesn't help. You can turn lights off and install CFL's, but the difference is tiny. Riding a bike vs driving actually causes more pollution (because farms make lots of pollution) [unless you replace exercise you anyway do with bike riding]. Coal burning in China is so bad that anything you can do is so utterly dwarfed by it as to almost be pointless.
  - abm82 13y ago
    Emissions per capita in China are well under half of those in the US so something doesn't add up about your post.
    - ars 13y ago
      Emissions of pollution or emissions of CO2? Plus China has a LOT of people, and a TON of them are rural and very poor - it's not exactly the preferred way to reduce emissions (of any kind).
      - Volpe 13y ago
        I think the point is, China isn't the one that needs to reduce, it is the US.
        ars 13y ago
        Nope. China. The only reason China has reasonably good numbers is that most of their population lives in miserable poverty.
rdl 13y ago
Even lower hanging fruit is the stupid fires in Indonesia (both wildfires and to clear land). We could pay to either employ those farmers in something else, or to upgrade how they manage their land, for cheaper than CO2/pollution savings in US industry.
- jlgreco 13y ago
  Are wildfires in Indonesia stupid? Some ecosystems rely on periodic naturally occurring wildfires.
  - rdl 13y ago
    They're not naturally occurring, they're set either accidentally or intentionally by humans for the most part, either to clear the land or in the process of stealing stuff (either from plantations, or as plantations, depending on your politics). The scary thing is people are draining the peat bogs; if those catch on fire (peat is a great fuel, basically dirty coal), a lot of carbon goes into the atmosphere which would otherwise have been sequestered for centuries+. I'm fine with small wildfires clearing out fuel in a place which otherwise builds up fuel for bigger fires, but that's not Indonesia.
- mr_spothawk 13y ago
  CO2 from concrete manufacture is a big issue. Considering that all the buildings being built here are concrete construction, I think China is significantly higher output than a few measly brush fires
  - rdl 13y ago
    There is economic benefit to cement production and concrete construction (theoretically), whereas there is essentially no economic benefit from brush fires, and the savings from slash-and-burn vs. regular clearing is tiny.

tomhschmidt 13y ago

A lot of this pollution is just a remnant from when China's economy was still largely manufacturing-based. Now that this percentage is beginning to change, (mid 30s in mid 2000s down to high 20s now), the government seems earnest in their attempts to curb pollution. See: http://www.businessinsider.com/china-pollution-business-opportunity-2013-8 http://www.businessinsider.com/china-pollution-business-oppo... http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/01/31/china-diesel-standards-idUKL4N0B04LE20130131 http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/01/31/china-diesel-standa...

seanmcdirmid 13y ago
Around Beijing, the problem is (1) use of coal as fuel with outdated poorly maintained energy producing equipment, (2) use of coal directly by peasants in the winter to keep warm (in Hebei), and (3) lots of cars with poor fuel quality (even if the emissions equipment is working, they aren't given the right quality of fuel). The solutions are quite simple: upgrade the equipment, get farmers to use natural gas for warming, and import the good black stuff from Saudi, not the cheap bad stuff (Sinopec is evil).
- tomhschmidt 13y ago
  I prefer to blame 串儿 and excessive 中南海 smokers
  - seanmcdirmid 13y ago
    Blaming the Chuan (outdoor BBQ) vendors is quite funny; I feel like the officials are trying to deflect blame for their black Audi's running on crappy fuel.
- hkmurakami 13y ago
  and with China's huge investments in Mongolian coal mines, it's not about to get much better any time soon :(
  - seanmcdirmid 13y ago

seanmcdirmid 13y ago

This is an article from 2008 about dust storms from the Gobi travelling across the Pacific; this isn't the main pollution problem in China today. The dust coming in from the Gobi was a result of deforestation and poor land management policies, which were pretty much cleaned up for the Olympics and have remained quite fixed. We haven't had a real dust storm in Beijing since early 2008, I think, and definitely not one in the last 4 years. The PM2.5 today is not carried by dust from the Gobi, but it still exists, of course. Ironically, the overall effect today is much worse than it was in 2008 (maybe because it just stays in Asia now?). I'm not sure if the pollution can still travel across the pacific without the huge dust storms of the past. Here is some more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_Dust http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_Dust All of the info in the article is out of date though. I wish I could find something more up to date. Edit: a recent dust storm in March 2013 that made its way to Japan: * http://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1187348/dust-storms-and-smog-revisit-streets-beijing http://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1187348/dust-storms-a... * http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2013/03/12/national/tokyo-dust-storm-came-complete-with-china-sand/#.UhRoKpIwd8E http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2013/03/12/national/tokyo-d... I remember this, but I didn't think it was particularly bad, at least the sky didn't turn yellow. The air was definitely crappy though, but once it all blew out (well, to Japan), it was quite clean afterwards. Perhaps the solution to China's pollution problems are giant fans (Japan can then build giant robots to destroy these fans).

hkmurakami 13y ago
I experienced a dust storm in Japan that started in China back in 2009 or 2010 so I think problems still do exist post-olympics (but perhaps greatly diminished from before? you'd know better than me on this) But I totally agree that the coal residues are the major issue at hand.
- seanmcdirmid 13y ago
  When I lived in China in 2002, we had more than a few dust storms where the sky would turn completely yellow...it is a bizarre surreal experience. On my recent tour of duty starting in late 2007, I only experienced one dust storm in the spring of 2008, then nothing. I haven't seen one for a very long time, but it could be that they've just solved the problem for Beijing (doubtful, since we are right smack next to Inner Mongolia). This is like the only thing...the only thing...that has gotten better in China while I've been here!

frank_boyd 13y ago

Surprise! Pollution is a global issue, too! It's time to start "thinking humanity", not "my country".

guelo 13y ago

I'm not sure why this study is interesting compared to the much more informative and amazing animation that NASA put out a few years ago, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtJzn8A725w http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YtJzn8A725w

jzzskijj 13y ago

If US companies stopped manufacturing their products in China, a part of this air pollution could be handled and prevented domestically. Ha!

gtani 13y ago

2nd or 3rd order related : How much could a growing supply of airborne wildfire soot be contributing to the decline of Greenland's ice reflectivity? How important is soot to amplifying Greenland's melt? http://www.outsideonline.com/adventure-travel/adventure-ethics/Wildfires-and-Ice-Dark-Snow-Climate-Science-Expedition-Field-Book.html http://www.outsideonline.com/adventure-travel/adventure-ethi...

marincounty 13y ago

I truely hope a virus mutates the DNA of human sperm, or eggs; making the world population decline.

indefatigable 13y ago
I'm getting a serious Poe's law vibe from this comment and username.
- mikeash 13y ago
  Benderism: save the world by killing all humans. http://humanities.philosophy.objectivism.narkive.com/SivGxJBl/benderism http://humanities.philosophy.objectivism.narkive.com/SivGxJB...
rwallace 13y ago
Most of the time I don't care about the de facto HN rule that only early adopters can downvote comments, but once in a while there's an occasion where it's really bloody annoying.

g123g 13y ago

I would like to see some numbers which tell which places in US are least affected by this kind of external pollution. As pollution from Asia is going to increase, it might make sense to look at these places especially for ppl with breathing issues.