5 ms·

The Male Programmer Privilege Checklist

61 points by j_baker 17y ago

whichdokta 17y ago
I think that in a healthy society the point of someone talking about things that make them feel uncomfortable is that you have an opportunity to spend some time thinking about how what they are saying applies to that society rather than telling them the one hundred ways how what they just said can't possibly be true. If we don't take those opportunities to think about what makes someone else uncomfortable (maybe because it makes us uncomfortable ourselves?) then, over time, the people with the willingness to speak out about something which could be improved simply leave and an opportunity to improve that society vanishes with them. Which is a great sadness because I think we've all got our own stories about things we don't like about the software biz and I think many of us feel a little bit hopeless about ever being able to change some of that... ...but discouraging folk willing to talk about things that can improve, even if it's not something we find important ourselves, means that it's a little less likely that any other conversation about improvement is going to get a hearing either. For the record, I'd like to see more women and other types of human than white&male&alpha in software myself because over fifteen years of doing this I have found that the most toxic development environments (high levels of stress, distrust, dishonesty, coercion etc.) have also been the environments with the lowest human diversity. It is not difficult to scare away people who are different from you or people who you expect to silently put up with problems caused by your point of view. But the problem is, as that happens, without differences your society slowly stops having anything to communicate about and without communication it becomes dumber and without intelligence it eventually becomes a target for attack and takeover by some other failed community with an eye to your resources. (Sun / Oracle anyone ? ;-D)
stavrianos 17y ago
As a man, I'd like to point out that I really can't help sexualizing basically anything. Studies have shown that straight men will ogle other men if they've got chest. Frankly, I don't like how it can hang over everything either, but I do my best to minimize it. If anyone can actually propose a solution to this "problem", great, but otherwise can we collectively move on?
- j_baker 17y ago
  I'd just like to point out that I also am a man and I don't have your problem. I have the capability of keeping my professional work environment professional.
  - ardit33 17y ago
    i think it depends on age. if you are in your twenties your testosterone does it for you. (if you are 25 and under, you are basically a walking hormone). Added the fact that in most tech companies guys outnumber girls 2 to 1 or worse (i am including marketing, sales, hr also), if you are a single and decent looking girl you will probably be hit on a lot. Not sure if there is a solution to this. As a counterpoint, i worked in a company of about 80 people, where 60 were female, and i got hit on a lot. I actually enjoyed it when girls were flirting with me. But that's the main difference i guess, women are more likeley to be more annoyed from non-wanted advanced than men are, call it evolution or social, i don't care. The fact is that being the one differnt from your collegues, might make you feel a little bit like a fish out of water. And in this case is being female, where you are probably outnumbered 4 to 1 or worse.
  - teilo 17y ago
    Look, here's the deal. If you are a man, you have to actively move the eyes away, but the pull is always there. Now that does not mean you cannot be professional, but it does mean you have to constantly and actively choose to be so. A woman who dresses provocatively in the office is a distraction. Far be it from me to tell women how to dress, but most women do not understand the effect they have on men, and of those who do, very few understand that men are, essentially, helpless when it comes to their reaction (even, as I said, if it is a reaction that they suppress). Heterosexual men who do NOT have this aspect of male nature are in the vast minority, although thy do exist. It is a part of being male, and as such, I refuse to apologize for it.
    - DanHulton 17y ago
      (Please don't downvote because you disagree. Downvoting is for people who are adding nothing to the conversation or actively trolling.) I was totally with you until the "I refuse to apologize for it" part. I'll apologize for it, because that's a part of being decent. I'll also explain the effect that kind of clothing has, and if the lady in question doesn't change the way she dresses, I'll inform HR so they are aware.
gruseom 17y ago
Prissy social correctors are no less annoying than boors.
- zimbabwe 17y ago
  Might as well create the "male singer checklist", where we mention all the perks rock stars have that programmers never will.
- timr 17y ago
  "Prissy" social correctors are at least smart enough to critically analyze the world around them. Boors are completely clueless. I'd take the former over the latter any day of the week.
  - gruseom 17y ago
    "Prissy" social correctors are at least smart enough to critically analyze the world around them. That's not true in my observation. Most adopt a prefab ideology that they try to impose on the world around them. They like to label this "critical analysis" (or that old stalwart, "thinking for yourself"), but it isn't: if it were, their ideas and positions and tone wouldn't be so predictable. Actually, trying to impose a rigid ideology on others is a large part of what makes them prissy. The OP seems to me a nice example.
    - timr 17y ago
      That's entirely your opinion. Say what you want about the list, the author put in at least enough critical thought to compile it. So far, you've insulted the author and dismissed her (him?), but you haven't addressed any of the arguments in the list.
- wingo 17y ago
  Why would you be annoyed at this? It's not a dominant perspective, one that you hear every day. Your statement, while pithy, misses the point.
  - 17y ago
buugs 17y ago
http://xkcd.com/385/ http://xkcd.com/385/
pookleblinky 17y ago
The first programmer was a woman. Perhaps a better checklist would be "actual reasons why the average human, without regard to gender, does not enter technical fields"
mnemonicsloth 17y ago
Having potential romantic partners assume from your career that you're smart and well-to-do rather than unattractive and unfeeling. Res Ipsa Loquitur. This is called "confirmation bias." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias
swolchok 17y ago
What is the goal of this checklist, other than causing a series of individual guilt trips for a gender imbalance that results from societal factors and/or legitimate gender predispositions for/against our field? What are we supposed to do? Do these people think we don't wish there were more women in the field? Also, I'm sure the ensuing discussion is going to resemble at least three other HN discussions.
- timr 17y ago
  I think it's pretty obvious what the response is expected to be: you're supposed to have some awareness of the next time you're doing any of these things, and perhaps make a change in your behavior. I don't agree with every item on the list, but the point of the exercise is plain.
- knowtheory 17y ago
  1) i took a comment ( http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=624808 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=624808 ) by the poster, j_baker, and ran it through http://www.hackerfactor.com/GenderGuesser.html http://www.hackerfactor.com/GenderGuesser.html which came up on this thread: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=608057 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=608057 and the result came up most likely male (just a point of note). 2) I would surmise that the point of lists like these are to raise awareness of injustices or slights that are done, particularly ones that others may not be aware of, because they are not subjected to them. 3) You're a member of the community, can you really not think of anything you could do to make things different? Why not do something that bucks the geek/nerd stereotype? Why not help someone else do it? Why not encourage/help someone who's not a stereotypical nerd into the field? Why not just object to stereotyping of programmers? These aren't problems that are going to change immediately. Being reminded that there are still problems isn't a bad thing imo. Just as being reminded that people do care about the issue, and would like to make things different (as you have done). So the problem has been recognized. There is a will to do something about it. Let's do something. There are organizations like RailsBridge that are forming ( http://railsbridge.org/ http://railsbridge.org/ ). The ACM-W exists ( http://women.acm.org/ http://women.acm.org/ ). If you want things to be different, pick something to do and do it.
derefr 17y ago
Interestingly, she possesses this bias as well: "If you're married, having people take you to lunch without them speculating on how your spouse would feel about them taking you to lunch." She is assuming here that the person "taking them out to lunch" is also male. If the offerer were female and the offered were male and married, there definitely would be speculation as to his fidelity, perhaps moreso than with the roles reversed.
- tim_chevalier 17y ago
  I'm a guy.
  - derefr 17y ago
    Sorry, I was using the politically-correct singular-second-person-of-unknown-gender pronoun (I couldn't tell from the post that you were male.) People don't seem to care as much when you assume a girl on the Internet is a guy, but assume a guy is a girl and everyone is up in arms. (This may be a point toward your post.)
    - tim_chevalier 17y ago
      puzzled My name, as the author, is at the top. Do you know a lot of women named "Tim"? (Kake, the original author, is a woman, but I contributed that particular item. Yes, I know that's not obvious from the list, which is why I clarified.)
jldugger 17y ago
Chief among those privileges not in the checklist: attendance at Wellesley College!
- tim_chevalier 17y ago
  Interestingly enough, the maintainer of the checklist (me) is a man who went to Wellesley.
schleyfox 17y ago
> Never being described as a "hot guy" first and a competent professional second. Oh Really? http://www.flickr.com/photos/46457493@N00/230535210/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/46457493@N00/230535210/ > Having potential romantic partners assume from your career that you're smart and well-to-do rather than unattractive and unfeeling. Unattractive, unfeeling, AND with neck beard is our stereotype. > Joining in appreciation of the sex object du jour without having to be gay or bisexual. This goes the other way too. Johnny Depp doesn't exactly place guys in a less awkward position, you know, because we're all totally comfortable with our sexuality in the male community. > Listening to speakers refer to an inanimate software construct as "this guy" without getting distracted. And ships are referred to as "she"' All in all, there are some good points hidden among many "grass is always greener" style arguments. Programming is hard work, people are insecure by their nature, and yes, there are gender related issues in the community. Hopefully, the stigma against women programmers will continue to lessen as the stigma against all programmers (bunch of nerds) also subsides.
- potatolicious 17y ago
  > Unattractive, unfeeling, AND with neck beard is our stereotype. Yeah, I didn't get that either. I have never had anyone identify me as smart and well-to-do from my career choice. People just seem to assume I'm nerdy, socially awkward, and would rather have sex with a robot (actually heard that one before, for some reason). Some of us are (somewhat) normal dammit :(
- maethorechannen 17y ago
  I'd like to add > Having your desk near the entrance to your office without visitors assuming you're the receptionist. I'm male, I've had the desk near the entrance and guess what - I got treated like a recptionist too. It's not gender, it's that your the first person people come across.
  - maethorechannen 17y ago
    also >Having interests that are unstereotypical for your gender and getting seen as cool and progressive rather than freaky and asexual for it. A male (programmer or otherwise) with interests that are unstereotypical for a male is rarely seen as "cool and progressive" - being seen as freaky and gay is far more likely.
nopassrecover 17y ago
"Not having to explain why the term "gentlemen" doesn't include you. " - So no "Hi gentleman", fair enough "# Listening to speakers refer to an inanimate software construct as "this guy" without getting distracted. " - So no "Hi guys", fair enough "Not being the special case ("hi guys and girls, I guess, too, if you want to get really technical about it!!") " - So no "Hi guys and girls", err..
- rw140 17y ago
  You could try 'Hi, everyone'. I suspect it depends on who you have in your audience. Personally the special case irks me more than a general 'Hi chaps', or 'Hi guys'. It simultaneously singles me out and wastes my time. I wouldn't generalise too far off this list, though. It looks like an amalgam of things that annoy different ladies. I only picked out 5 of them that I agreed with.
- enneff 17y ago
  "Hey everyone!" "Hi!" "Good morning/afternoon/evening/day!" "Hello!" "Greetings!" etc... Although I say "Hi Guys!" sometimes when greeting my wife and daughter, so I don't really see what's so offensive about it.
- tim_chevalier 17y ago
  The second point was meant to be about inanimate software constructs: for example, "This guy jumps to that guy without pushing a new stack frame." The difference between "hi guys and girls" and "hi guys and girls, I guess, too, if you want to get really technical about it!!" is that the second sentence goes out of its way to call attention to the Other-ness of the marginalized group. But why not circumvent the issue entirely and use a gender-neutral term like "folks", "everyone", or (depending on the formality of the occasion) "distinguished colleagues"? It perplexes me that people who have no trouble writing a compiler or debugging device drivers apparently find it so difficult to phrase a simple sentence in a way that doesn't exclude anyone.
  - nopassrecover 17y ago
    I see your point but guys has come to become gender neutral. Sure a guy is still male but "you guys" is anyone.
thristian 17y ago
> Listening to speakers refer to an inanimate software construct as "this guy" without getting distracted. I wasn't sure why this particular item was included, but I suppose I too am momentarily distracted when I hear a woman personify an inanimate object as 'she'. I mean, I understand it's a perfectly reasonable thing to do, but there's just that split second where the world seems to turn inside-out and I have to recollect my thoughts. I wouldn't call it a Male Privilege, though.
- enneff 17y ago
  I find the whole anthropomorphising abstract objects to be an annoying and distracting trait, anyway, whether they're saying "he" or "she". (My mind is saying inside "It's an IT, damn it!")
sdurkin 17y ago
Female Programmer Privilege Checklist: Guilting every male programmer for both real and imagined slights. The beauty of startups is that no one cares who or what you are, so long as you can deliver. So stop complaining , AND BUILD SOMETHING ALREADY.
- rw140 17y ago
  Sure, "so long as you can deliver". Are we going to be treated equally when we fail? Even worse, are we going to be treated as representatives of half the species (someone's already linked to that XKCD cartoon). It may be paranoia, but it doesn't help. PS. Mostly I try not to guilt my co-workers about stuff. I don't think it makes them or me any more productive.
  - jlouis 17y ago
    Failure is an important step towards mastering. Sure hell you are going to be treated equally from the professional standpoint if you have the courage to fail a couple of times. It depends wholly on if and how you play the gender-card in the game. Or how you can be coerced/forced to play it.
  - tayssir 17y ago
    I'm reminded of Smolin's _The Trouble with Physics_: > Note that whereas there have always been talented women musicians, the number of women hired by orchestras rose significantly when candidates began auditioning behind a screen. This is why there is affirmative action. In all my experience, I have never seen a woman or an African American hired through an affirmative-action program who didn't strongly deserve it -- that is, who wasn't already arguably the best applicant. When hiring committees are no longer composed only of white men and we stop hearing expressions of open prejudice, then we can relax affirmative action. As it stands, people who are different -- who, for one reason or another, make powerful older male physicists uncomfortable -- are not hired. (This was in the context of an argument about how physics institutions often filter out challengers to orthodoxy: including those who think differently, not just look differently.)
  - Tichy 17y ago
ahoyhere 17y ago
I find this kind of thing absolutely nauseating, divisive, and thoroughly unhelpful. I'm sure it makes you feel good, Mr Ultra Feminist, but you're not advancing "your" cause whatsoever by trying to guilt people - and with such weak, whiny examples, too. You just make women look weak and whiny. (And, by extension, yourself, since you're not even a woman.) That's unproductive and leads to - guess what! - women being not taken seriously, and being avoided because well-meaning men will assume everything they say will cause offense, and women not getting hired or picked because they make everyone else uncomfortable. Isn't that ironic? You also treat all women the same when you presume to speak for them. That's just more plain old sexism dressed up in a suit of righteousness. I hate people grouping me with all other breast-and-vagina people, and assuming I like them, and agree with them, and share their agenda... and support them speaking on my behalf, as if we are all alike. If you want to create change, you have to stop whining, stop laying blame, stop pointing fingers and saying "YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IT'S LIKE WHEN THEY CALL OBJECTS 'GUYS'!!!!" and do useful, productive things. This is not it. For what it's worth, men in IT are more likeable than women, because when men fail, they don't blame it on other people's oppression of them due to their sexual equipment.
- Tichy 17y ago
  My favorite was from another article where they claimed that all programming languages were tailored towards male ways of thinking. If that would be the case, why not set out to create a programing language tailored towards the female way of thinking. I for one would be really curious to see that.
  - j_baker 17y ago
    Just out of curiosity, would you happen to have a link to the article? I'm genuinely curious as to what makes a programming language "male oriented".
    - Tichy 17y ago
      I tried to yahoo it, but did not find it. It came up during the recent "male vs female programmers" surge.
knowtheory 17y ago
Some of the things that have been added to the list since it was posted to HN are actually obnoxious: Laughing at jokes like this (http://codetojoy.blogspot.com/2007/08/closures-are-hot.html http://codetojoy.blogspot.com/2007/08/closures-are-hot.html) because women holding bumper stickers about closures is funny in the same way pictures of cats "reading" calculus books is funny, rather than wondering whether your colleagues see you in the same way as those women. I do think the Code To Joy thing is funny. Why? Because the discussion about closures in java (so far as i am aware) has left the realm of technical discussion, and now is just gridlocked. The opinion on closures of women at bars (however well informed), at this point is just as relevant to me as other discussions on the pros and cons of including closures. It's not funny because girls are stupid, or because being hot precludes one's knowledge of pros and cons of closures. I would not expect random strangers at bars (be they male or female) to have an informed opinion about closures in java. The fact that Code To Joy picked only pictures of women to post may be sexist in the sense that they show a bias, but i don't think that the joke is demeaning to women.

61 points by j_baker 17y ago

I think that in a healthy society the point of someone talking about things that make them feel uncomfortable is that you have an opportunity to spend some time thinking about how what they are saying applies to that society rather than telling them the one hundred ways how what they just said can't possibly be true. If we don't take those opportunities to think about what makes someone else uncomfortable (maybe because it makes us uncomfortable ourselves?) then, over time, the people with the willingness to speak out about something which could be improved simply leave and an opportunity to improve that society vanishes with them. Which is a great sadness because I think we've all got our own stories about things we don't like about the software biz and I think many of us feel a little bit hopeless about ever being able to change some of that... ...but discouraging folk willing to talk about things that can improve, even if it's not something we find important ourselves, means that it's a little less likely that any other conversation about improvement is going to get a hearing either. For the record, I'd like to see more women and other types of human than white&male&alpha in software myself because over fifteen years of doing this I have found that the most toxic development environments (high levels of stress, distrust, dishonesty, coercion etc.) have also been the environments with the lowest human diversity. It is not difficult to scare away people who are different from you or people who you expect to silently put up with problems caused by your point of view. But the problem is, as that happens, without differences your society slowly stops having anything to communicate about and without communication it becomes dumber and without intelligence it eventually becomes a target for attack and takeover by some other failed community with an eye to your resources. (Sun / Oracle anyone ? ;-D)

stavrianos 17y ago

As a man, I'd like to point out that I really can't help sexualizing basically anything. Studies have shown that straight men will ogle other men if they've got chest. Frankly, I don't like how it can hang over everything either, but I do my best to minimize it. If anyone can actually propose a solution to this "problem", great, but otherwise can we collectively move on?

j_baker 17y ago
I'd just like to point out that I also am a man and I don't have your problem. I have the capability of keeping my professional work environment professional.
- ardit33 17y ago
  i think it depends on age. if you are in your twenties your testosterone does it for you. (if you are 25 and under, you are basically a walking hormone). Added the fact that in most tech companies guys outnumber girls 2 to 1 or worse (i am including marketing, sales, hr also), if you are a single and decent looking girl you will probably be hit on a lot. Not sure if there is a solution to this. As a counterpoint, i worked in a company of about 80 people, where 60 were female, and i got hit on a lot. I actually enjoyed it when girls were flirting with me. But that's the main difference i guess, women are more likeley to be more annoyed from non-wanted advanced than men are, call it evolution or social, i don't care. The fact is that being the one differnt from your collegues, might make you feel a little bit like a fish out of water. And in this case is being female, where you are probably outnumbered 4 to 1 or worse.
- teilo 17y ago
  Look, here's the deal. If you are a man, you have to actively move the eyes away, but the pull is always there. Now that does not mean you cannot be professional, but it does mean you have to constantly and actively choose to be so. A woman who dresses provocatively in the office is a distraction. Far be it from me to tell women how to dress, but most women do not understand the effect they have on men, and of those who do, very few understand that men are, essentially, helpless when it comes to their reaction (even, as I said, if it is a reaction that they suppress). Heterosexual men who do NOT have this aspect of male nature are in the vast minority, although thy do exist. It is a part of being male, and as such, I refuse to apologize for it.
  - DanHulton 17y ago
    (Please don't downvote because you disagree. Downvoting is for people who are adding nothing to the conversation or actively trolling.) I was totally with you until the "I refuse to apologize for it" part. I'll apologize for it, because that's a part of being decent. I'll also explain the effect that kind of clothing has, and if the lady in question doesn't change the way she dresses, I'll inform HR so they are aware.

gruseom 17y ago

Prissy social correctors are no less annoying than boors.

zimbabwe 17y ago
Might as well create the "male singer checklist", where we mention all the perks rock stars have that programmers never will.
timr 17y ago
"Prissy" social correctors are at least smart enough to critically analyze the world around them. Boors are completely clueless. I'd take the former over the latter any day of the week.
- gruseom 17y ago
  "Prissy" social correctors are at least smart enough to critically analyze the world around them. That's not true in my observation. Most adopt a prefab ideology that they try to impose on the world around them. They like to label this "critical analysis" (or that old stalwart, "thinking for yourself"), but it isn't: if it were, their ideas and positions and tone wouldn't be so predictable. Actually, trying to impose a rigid ideology on others is a large part of what makes them prissy. The OP seems to me a nice example.
  - timr 17y ago
    That's entirely your opinion. Say what you want about the list, the author put in at least enough critical thought to compile it. So far, you've insulted the author and dismissed her (him?), but you haven't addressed any of the arguments in the list.
wingo 17y ago
Why would you be annoyed at this? It's not a dominant perspective, one that you hear every day. Your statement, while pithy, misses the point.
- 17y ago

buugs 17y ago

http://xkcd.com/385/ http://xkcd.com/385/

pookleblinky 17y ago

The first programmer was a woman. Perhaps a better checklist would be "actual reasons why the average human, without regard to gender, does not enter technical fields"

mnemonicsloth 17y ago

Having potential romantic partners assume from your career that you're smart and well-to-do rather than unattractive and unfeeling. Res Ipsa Loquitur. This is called "confirmation bias." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

swolchok 17y ago

What is the goal of this checklist, other than causing a series of individual guilt trips for a gender imbalance that results from societal factors and/or legitimate gender predispositions for/against our field? What are we supposed to do? Do these people think we don't wish there were more women in the field? Also, I'm sure the ensuing discussion is going to resemble at least three other HN discussions.

timr 17y ago
I think it's pretty obvious what the response is expected to be: you're supposed to have some awareness of the next time you're doing any of these things, and perhaps make a change in your behavior. I don't agree with every item on the list, but the point of the exercise is plain.
knowtheory 17y ago
1) i took a comment ( http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=624808 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=624808 ) by the poster, j_baker, and ran it through http://www.hackerfactor.com/GenderGuesser.html http://www.hackerfactor.com/GenderGuesser.html which came up on this thread: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=608057 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=608057 and the result came up most likely male (just a point of note). 2) I would surmise that the point of lists like these are to raise awareness of injustices or slights that are done, particularly ones that others may not be aware of, because they are not subjected to them. 3) You're a member of the community, can you really not think of anything you could do to make things different? Why not do something that bucks the geek/nerd stereotype? Why not help someone else do it? Why not encourage/help someone who's not a stereotypical nerd into the field? Why not just object to stereotyping of programmers? These aren't problems that are going to change immediately. Being reminded that there are still problems isn't a bad thing imo. Just as being reminded that people do care about the issue, and would like to make things different (as you have done). So the problem has been recognized. There is a will to do something about it. Let's do something. There are organizations like RailsBridge that are forming ( http://railsbridge.org/ http://railsbridge.org/ ). The ACM-W exists ( http://women.acm.org/ http://women.acm.org/ ). If you want things to be different, pick something to do and do it.

derefr 17y ago

Interestingly, she possesses this bias as well: "If you're married, having people take you to lunch without them speculating on how your spouse would feel about them taking you to lunch." She is assuming here that the person "taking them out to lunch" is also male. If the offerer were female and the offered were male and married, there definitely would be speculation as to his fidelity, perhaps moreso than with the roles reversed.

tim_chevalier 17y ago
I'm a guy.
- derefr 17y ago
  Sorry, I was using the politically-correct singular-second-person-of-unknown-gender pronoun (I couldn't tell from the post that you were male.) People don't seem to care as much when you assume a girl on the Internet is a guy, but assume a guy is a girl and everyone is up in arms. (This may be a point toward your post.)
  - tim_chevalier 17y ago
    puzzled My name, as the author, is at the top. Do you know a lot of women named "Tim"? (Kake, the original author, is a woman, but I contributed that particular item. Yes, I know that's not obvious from the list, which is why I clarified.)

jldugger 17y ago

Chief among those privileges not in the checklist: attendance at Wellesley College!

tim_chevalier 17y ago
Interestingly enough, the maintainer of the checklist (me) is a man who went to Wellesley.

schleyfox 17y ago

> Never being described as a "hot guy" first and a competent professional second. Oh Really? http://www.flickr.com/photos/46457493@N00/230535210/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/46457493@N00/230535210/ > Having potential romantic partners assume from your career that you're smart and well-to-do rather than unattractive and unfeeling. Unattractive, unfeeling, AND with neck beard is our stereotype. > Joining in appreciation of the sex object du jour without having to be gay or bisexual. This goes the other way too. Johnny Depp doesn't exactly place guys in a less awkward position, you know, because we're all totally comfortable with our sexuality in the male community. > Listening to speakers refer to an inanimate software construct as "this guy" without getting distracted. And ships are referred to as "she"' All in all, there are some good points hidden among many "grass is always greener" style arguments. Programming is hard work, people are insecure by their nature, and yes, there are gender related issues in the community. Hopefully, the stigma against women programmers will continue to lessen as the stigma against all programmers (bunch of nerds) also subsides.

potatolicious 17y ago
> Unattractive, unfeeling, AND with neck beard is our stereotype. Yeah, I didn't get that either. I have never had anyone identify me as smart and well-to-do from my career choice. People just seem to assume I'm nerdy, socially awkward, and would rather have sex with a robot (actually heard that one before, for some reason). Some of us are (somewhat) normal dammit :(
maethorechannen 17y ago
I'd like to add > Having your desk near the entrance to your office without visitors assuming you're the receptionist. I'm male, I've had the desk near the entrance and guess what - I got treated like a recptionist too. It's not gender, it's that your the first person people come across.
- maethorechannen 17y ago
  also >Having interests that are unstereotypical for your gender and getting seen as cool and progressive rather than freaky and asexual for it. A male (programmer or otherwise) with interests that are unstereotypical for a male is rarely seen as "cool and progressive" - being seen as freaky and gay is far more likely.

nopassrecover 17y ago

"Not having to explain why the term "gentlemen" doesn't include you. " - So no "Hi gentleman", fair enough "# Listening to speakers refer to an inanimate software construct as "this guy" without getting distracted. " - So no "Hi guys", fair enough "Not being the special case ("hi guys and girls, I guess, too, if you want to get really technical about it!!") " - So no "Hi guys and girls", err..

rw140 17y ago
You could try 'Hi, everyone'. I suspect it depends on who you have in your audience. Personally the special case irks me more than a general 'Hi chaps', or 'Hi guys'. It simultaneously singles me out and wastes my time. I wouldn't generalise too far off this list, though. It looks like an amalgam of things that annoy different ladies. I only picked out 5 of them that I agreed with.
enneff 17y ago
"Hey everyone!" "Hi!" "Good morning/afternoon/evening/day!" "Hello!" "Greetings!" etc... Although I say "Hi Guys!" sometimes when greeting my wife and daughter, so I don't really see what's so offensive about it.
tim_chevalier 17y ago
The second point was meant to be about inanimate software constructs: for example, "This guy jumps to that guy without pushing a new stack frame." The difference between "hi guys and girls" and "hi guys and girls, I guess, too, if you want to get really technical about it!!" is that the second sentence goes out of its way to call attention to the Other-ness of the marginalized group. But why not circumvent the issue entirely and use a gender-neutral term like "folks", "everyone", or (depending on the formality of the occasion) "distinguished colleagues"? It perplexes me that people who have no trouble writing a compiler or debugging device drivers apparently find it so difficult to phrase a simple sentence in a way that doesn't exclude anyone.
- nopassrecover 17y ago
  I see your point but guys has come to become gender neutral. Sure a guy is still male but "you guys" is anyone.

thristian 17y ago

> Listening to speakers refer to an inanimate software construct as "this guy" without getting distracted. I wasn't sure why this particular item was included, but I suppose I too am momentarily distracted when I hear a woman personify an inanimate object as 'she'. I mean, I understand it's a perfectly reasonable thing to do, but there's just that split second where the world seems to turn inside-out and I have to recollect my thoughts. I wouldn't call it a Male Privilege, though.

enneff 17y ago
I find the whole anthropomorphising abstract objects to be an annoying and distracting trait, anyway, whether they're saying "he" or "she". (My mind is saying inside "It's an IT, damn it!")

sdurkin 17y ago

Female Programmer Privilege Checklist: Guilting every male programmer for both real and imagined slights. The beauty of startups is that no one cares who or what you are, so long as you can deliver. So stop complaining , AND BUILD SOMETHING ALREADY.

rw140 17y ago
Sure, "so long as you can deliver". Are we going to be treated equally when we fail? Even worse, are we going to be treated as representatives of half the species (someone's already linked to that XKCD cartoon). It may be paranoia, but it doesn't help. PS. Mostly I try not to guilt my co-workers about stuff. I don't think it makes them or me any more productive.
- jlouis 17y ago
  Failure is an important step towards mastering. Sure hell you are going to be treated equally from the professional standpoint if you have the courage to fail a couple of times. It depends wholly on if and how you play the gender-card in the game. Or how you can be coerced/forced to play it.
- tayssir 17y ago
  I'm reminded of Smolin's _The Trouble with Physics_: > Note that whereas there have always been talented women musicians, the number of women hired by orchestras rose significantly when candidates began auditioning behind a screen. This is why there is affirmative action. In all my experience, I have never seen a woman or an African American hired through an affirmative-action program who didn't strongly deserve it -- that is, who wasn't already arguably the best applicant. When hiring committees are no longer composed only of white men and we stop hearing expressions of open prejudice, then we can relax affirmative action. As it stands, people who are different -- who, for one reason or another, make powerful older male physicists uncomfortable -- are not hired. (This was in the context of an argument about how physics institutions often filter out challengers to orthodoxy: including those who think differently, not just look differently.)
- Tichy 17y ago

ahoyhere 17y ago

I find this kind of thing absolutely nauseating, divisive, and thoroughly unhelpful. I'm sure it makes you feel good, Mr Ultra Feminist, but you're not advancing "your" cause whatsoever by trying to guilt people - and with such weak, whiny examples, too. You just make women look weak and whiny. (And, by extension, yourself, since you're not even a woman.) That's unproductive and leads to - guess what! - women being not taken seriously, and being avoided because well-meaning men will assume everything they say will cause offense, and women not getting hired or picked because they make everyone else uncomfortable. Isn't that ironic? You also treat all women the same when you presume to speak for them. That's just more plain old sexism dressed up in a suit of righteousness. I hate people grouping me with all other breast-and-vagina people, and assuming I like them, and agree with them, and share their agenda... and support them speaking on my behalf, as if we are all alike. If you want to create change, you have to stop whining, stop laying blame, stop pointing fingers and saying "YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IT'S LIKE WHEN THEY CALL OBJECTS 'GUYS'!!!!" and do useful, productive things. This is not it. For what it's worth, men in IT are more likeable than women, because when men fail, they don't blame it on other people's oppression of them due to their sexual equipment.

Tichy 17y ago
My favorite was from another article where they claimed that all programming languages were tailored towards male ways of thinking. If that would be the case, why not set out to create a programing language tailored towards the female way of thinking. I for one would be really curious to see that.
- j_baker 17y ago
  Just out of curiosity, would you happen to have a link to the article? I'm genuinely curious as to what makes a programming language "male oriented".
  - Tichy 17y ago
    I tried to yahoo it, but did not find it. It came up during the recent "male vs female programmers" surge.

knowtheory 17y ago

Some of the things that have been added to the list since it was posted to HN are actually obnoxious: Laughing at jokes like this (http://codetojoy.blogspot.com/2007/08/closures-are-hot.html http://codetojoy.blogspot.com/2007/08/closures-are-hot.html) because women holding bumper stickers about closures is funny in the same way pictures of cats "reading" calculus books is funny, rather than wondering whether your colleagues see you in the same way as those women. I do think the Code To Joy thing is funny. Why? Because the discussion about closures in java (so far as i am aware) has left the realm of technical discussion, and now is just gridlocked. The opinion on closures of women at bars (however well informed), at this point is just as relevant to me as other discussions on the pros and cons of including closures. It's not funny because girls are stupid, or because being hot precludes one's knowledge of pros and cons of closures. I would not expect random strangers at bars (be they male or female) to have an informed opinion about closures in java. The fact that Code To Joy picked only pictures of women to post may be sexist in the sense that they show a bias, but i don't think that the joke is demeaning to women.