5 ms·

David Miranda Heathrow detention: No 10 'kept abreast of operation'

180 points by RobAley 13y ago

devx 13y ago
"A Home Office spokesperson said: "The government and the police have a duty to protect the public and our national security." It's starting to really piss me off how these governments think they can do anything as long as they mention "national security" in their public statements. It's like they think we're all morons and we'll actually believe it everytime they say it. Commenters here on HN saying terrorism should be treated as any other crime are rights. Eliminate all "special terrorist-laws", and you'll stop these abuses.
- k-mcgrady 13y ago
  Another problem with the blatant over use of terrorism and national security is that people are finally starting to realise it's bullshit. When there is actual legitimate concern of terrorism or fear for national security people will ignore it. No doubt they'll invent another phrase to get their point across and we'll go through the same cycle of overuse again.
  - joering2 13y ago
    > people are finally starting to realise it's bullshit Unfortunately when this happens, we have white flag terrorist event happening, caused and sponsored by government, just to put people back in their places. It seems to always work :( I really don't know what the solution is, but this is not about pushing the switch that will always jump back (if you understand my analogy). We all need to come together and push it so hard that it will immediately switch over to the other side. Those in charge who says that kind of bullshit will stand on our side. Military called in to "cleanup" will refuse. Those who are about to declare "martial law" will declare those who tired to gave that order, terrorists. This is the only change that, at this point, will work. Any other attempt will put you in jail for long time or life, will get your belonging confiscated, your family scrutinized and God knows what else.
    - dredmorbius 13y ago
      we have white flag terrorist event happening I believe the phrase you're looking for is "false flag" or "black flag".
igravious 13y ago
Dupe of recent https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6242908 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6242908 More comments there; BBC changed title of story.
JeremyMorgan 13y ago
It's the stuff like this that lends credence to the 9/11 truther nuts. While I still don't think 9/11 was an inside job, it's very clear that the 2nd phase of that theory is in full effect all over the world. They're using terrorism as a justification to silence people and control us, right before our very eyes. This is scary stuff folks.
- harrytuttle 13y ago
  It's a shame that only about 5% of us give a shit about it as well. It's working pretty well.
  - andy_ppp 13y ago
    5% seems very high. Maybe 5% of geeks? Maybe they'll just round everyone up who wears glasses or just datamine our hacker news posts. Balls.
  - madaxe 13y ago
    I think it's more like 0.05% of us give a shit. Nobody else gives a damn so long as American Idol on Ice-Factor or whatever the hell people are vicariously existing through these days airs. Humanity is neatly self correcting themselves out of existence. Have you got a 27b/6?
- samstave 13y ago
  Try watching this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-a4B4aNStQ#t=1h22m55s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-a4B4aNStQ#t=1h22m55s
- hahainternet 13y ago
  > It's the stuff like this that lends credence to the 9/11 truther nuts Really? That's where you're going with this?
  - corin_ 13y ago
    There's two things to consider regarding 9/11 conspiracies - is it true that they would want the benefits that fear of terrorism has lead to, and if so would they actually have killed people for that sake. We're seeing more and more that the first part of that is true, i.e. proving the motive. That said, I'm firmly in the "it wasn't a conspiracy" camp - but you can at least see why a conspiracy believer would see these things as backing up part of their beliefs.
DeeplySuspect 13y ago
This counterproductive use of the courts is just the latest development in a story which doesn't quite add up. Miranda said that the police asked him to hand over all his passwords ("they got me to tell them the passwords for my computer and mobile phone"), and (in the same interview) claimed "he didn't have a role", but then Rusbridger says (in the same article) that "[Greenwald] is regularly helped by David Miranda. Miranda is not a journalist, but he still plays a valuable role in helping his partner do his journalistic work." Miranda also claims that he didn't know what he was carrying, despite assisting his partner, visiting this film-maker, and knowing all the passwords! Greenwald, the Guardian et. al don't get it: in order to convince me that they are in the right about surveillance, they need to be beyond reproach. I don't necessarily agree with the use of surveillance programs, but I certainly don't agree with the cynical truth-mangling tactics of the other side: because the truth is really the only advantage that side has. How did we get into this situation?
- lhnz 13y ago
  Only somebody that believes in black-and-white separation between good and evil would insist that the good guys have to be beyond all reproach. Life isn't that simple.
- ferdo 13y ago
  > they need to be beyond reproach I don't understand this thinking. Greenwald and the Guardian have very little power in comparison to the intel agencies and governments they report on. Why is their conduct more important than the people they're reporting on, people we already know are misusing law and the power of government? If anything, intel agencies and governments need to convince me they're beyond reproach or I'm just going to assume that their amoral ways will only get worse.
  - DeeplySuspect 13y ago
    All I want is the truth. The details are inconsistent - someone's being economical with the truth. We found out that the NSA lied repeatedly, and I'll be bitterly disappointed if the other side doesn't hold itself to the high standards it (and we) expect of our governments.
mindstab 13y ago
So how we we achieve political change? As Charlie Stross points out, some very wrong has hijacked our political system: http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2010/12/invaders-from-mars.html http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2010/12/invaders...
grey-area 13y ago
A copy of the letter from David Miranda's lawyers is now available here: http://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2013/aug/20/david-miranda-letter-home-office http://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2013/aug/20/dav... Looks like they want to take this to the high court if possible.

180 points by RobAley 13y ago

devx 13y ago

"A Home Office spokesperson said: "The government and the police have a duty to protect the public and our national security." It's starting to really piss me off how these governments think they can do anything as long as they mention "national security" in their public statements. It's like they think we're all morons and we'll actually believe it everytime they say it. Commenters here on HN saying terrorism should be treated as any other crime are rights. Eliminate all "special terrorist-laws", and you'll stop these abuses.

k-mcgrady 13y ago
Another problem with the blatant over use of terrorism and national security is that people are finally starting to realise it's bullshit. When there is actual legitimate concern of terrorism or fear for national security people will ignore it. No doubt they'll invent another phrase to get their point across and we'll go through the same cycle of overuse again.
- joering2 13y ago
  > people are finally starting to realise it's bullshit Unfortunately when this happens, we have white flag terrorist event happening, caused and sponsored by government, just to put people back in their places. It seems to always work :( I really don't know what the solution is, but this is not about pushing the switch that will always jump back (if you understand my analogy). We all need to come together and push it so hard that it will immediately switch over to the other side. Those in charge who says that kind of bullshit will stand on our side. Military called in to "cleanup" will refuse. Those who are about to declare "martial law" will declare those who tired to gave that order, terrorists. This is the only change that, at this point, will work. Any other attempt will put you in jail for long time or life, will get your belonging confiscated, your family scrutinized and God knows what else.
  - dredmorbius 13y ago
    we have white flag terrorist event happening I believe the phrase you're looking for is "false flag" or "black flag".

igravious 13y ago

Dupe of recent https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6242908 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6242908 More comments there; BBC changed title of story.

JeremyMorgan 13y ago

It's the stuff like this that lends credence to the 9/11 truther nuts. While I still don't think 9/11 was an inside job, it's very clear that the 2nd phase of that theory is in full effect all over the world. They're using terrorism as a justification to silence people and control us, right before our very eyes. This is scary stuff folks.

harrytuttle 13y ago
It's a shame that only about 5% of us give a shit about it as well. It's working pretty well.
- andy_ppp 13y ago
  5% seems very high. Maybe 5% of geeks? Maybe they'll just round everyone up who wears glasses or just datamine our hacker news posts. Balls.
- madaxe 13y ago
  I think it's more like 0.05% of us give a shit. Nobody else gives a damn so long as American Idol on Ice-Factor or whatever the hell people are vicariously existing through these days airs. Humanity is neatly self correcting themselves out of existence. Have you got a 27b/6?
samstave 13y ago
Try watching this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-a4B4aNStQ#t=1h22m55s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-a4B4aNStQ#t=1h22m55s
hahainternet 13y ago
> It's the stuff like this that lends credence to the 9/11 truther nuts Really? That's where you're going with this?
- corin_ 13y ago
  There's two things to consider regarding 9/11 conspiracies - is it true that they would want the benefits that fear of terrorism has lead to, and if so would they actually have killed people for that sake. We're seeing more and more that the first part of that is true, i.e. proving the motive. That said, I'm firmly in the "it wasn't a conspiracy" camp - but you can at least see why a conspiracy believer would see these things as backing up part of their beliefs.

DeeplySuspect 13y ago

This counterproductive use of the courts is just the latest development in a story which doesn't quite add up. Miranda said that the police asked him to hand over all his passwords ("they got me to tell them the passwords for my computer and mobile phone"), and (in the same interview) claimed "he didn't have a role", but then Rusbridger says (in the same article) that "[Greenwald] is regularly helped by David Miranda. Miranda is not a journalist, but he still plays a valuable role in helping his partner do his journalistic work." Miranda also claims that he didn't know what he was carrying, despite assisting his partner, visiting this film-maker, and knowing all the passwords! Greenwald, the Guardian et. al don't get it: in order to convince me that they are in the right about surveillance, they need to be beyond reproach. I don't necessarily agree with the use of surveillance programs, but I certainly don't agree with the cynical truth-mangling tactics of the other side: because the truth is really the only advantage that side has. How did we get into this situation?

lhnz 13y ago
Only somebody that believes in black-and-white separation between good and evil would insist that the good guys have to be beyond all reproach. Life isn't that simple.
ferdo 13y ago
> they need to be beyond reproach I don't understand this thinking. Greenwald and the Guardian have very little power in comparison to the intel agencies and governments they report on. Why is their conduct more important than the people they're reporting on, people we already know are misusing law and the power of government? If anything, intel agencies and governments need to convince me they're beyond reproach or I'm just going to assume that their amoral ways will only get worse.
- DeeplySuspect 13y ago
  All I want is the truth. The details are inconsistent - someone's being economical with the truth. We found out that the NSA lied repeatedly, and I'll be bitterly disappointed if the other side doesn't hold itself to the high standards it (and we) expect of our governments.

mindstab 13y ago

So how we we achieve political change? As Charlie Stross points out, some very wrong has hijacked our political system: http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2010/12/invaders-from-mars.html http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2010/12/invaders...

grey-area 13y ago

A copy of the letter from David Miranda's lawyers is now available here: http://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2013/aug/20/david-miranda-letter-home-office http://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2013/aug/20/dav... Looks like they want to take this to the high court if possible.